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Post Info TOPIC: WDH


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RE: WDH
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yobarr wrote:

Again I will say that a WDH is used only by people who are trying to make a car do things for which it was not designed.

Indesputable, inconvenient truth.


 Yobarr you have never provided Indesputible Inconvienent proof to support your opinion, not one shread of evidence.

However even the Society of American Engineers support the use of weight distribution hitches, countless designers and manufactures including major automodile manufactures like Ford and Toyota recommend their use in certain circumstances.

I have a opinion that people who have GVM-GCM upgrades are trying to make a car do things for which it was not designed, but in fact that statement is incorrect because the engineers who designed the upgrade for SSM's make it safe and legal. You present picture after picture of individuals who used a WDH incorrectly, thats not the fault of the WDH, its the fault of the user.

I wonder why WDH manufactures have never faced litigation, perhaps its because when used properly they are an asset to towing. just like friction sway control and more modern versions that are an improvment to safe towing. Its no different to hitches the cup and ball through to the laterest offerings, some are are loved and others have detractors, all are a progression of safe towing. Alas we are such a small market we are 10 or more years behind availability of the latest WDH designs which improve performance and safety.

So may I politely tell you to provided you evidence or shut the F up.



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Yobarr 

You have very often claimed that a WDH increases a vans ATM when you should use the term laden weight. I think Gregg is just using the terms in the same way as you have.

Clearly the van CANNOT weigh more, remember F=MG (weight equals mass times the acceleration due to gravity)

This is the basic physical principle that you continue to refuse to accept. This accounts for the flaw in your beliefs.



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Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:

Again I will say that a WDH is used only by people who are trying to make a car do things for which it was not designed.

Indesputable, inconvenient truth.


 Yobarr you have never provided Indesputible Inconvienent proof to support your opinion, not one shread of evidence.

However even the Society of American Engineers support the use of weight distribution hitches, countless designers and manufactures including major automodile manufactures like Ford and Toyota recommend their use in certain circumstances.

I have a opinion that people who have GVM-GCM upgrades are trying to make a car do things for which it was not designed, but in fact that statement is incorrect because the engineers who designed the upgrade for SSM's make it safe and legal. You present picture after picture of individuals who used a WDH incorrectly, thats not the fault of the WDH, its the fault of the user.

I wonder why WDH manufactures have never faced litigation, perhaps its because when used properly they are an asset to towing. just like friction sway control and more modern versions that are an improvment to safe towing. Its no different to hitches the cup and ball through to the laterest offerings, some are are loved and others have detractors, all are a progression of safe towing. Alas we are such a small market we are 10 or more years behind availability of the latest WDH designs which improve performance and safety.

So may I politely tell you to provided you evidence or shut the F up.


 Graham, sad that  you feel the need  to resort to profanities simply because you cannot, do not, or will not understand the facts that I selflessly have, many times, presented. As usual you have either misunderstood or are misrepresenting my submissions.

Simply, can you explain why any car needs a WDH to enable it to reach its allocated tow capacity? 

Surely that car should be able to tow its rating as it leaves the production line, without add-ons?

Because I have many times explained this, in detail, and you STILL don't understand, there is little more that I can do.

Many times I have suggested that, in your case, Ford mandate the use of a WDH above a certain weight because they KNOW that the car's rear axle is not up to the task. I can't be bothered iterating what has been posted many times, but I respectfully suggest that you discard your stupid tape measure and move into the 21st century.

Surely you understand that using a tape measure is ridiculous, considering variables such as TBW, car wheelbase, and Towball overhang, as well as the all-important spring rates, all have a major influence on how a car's attitude changes when a weight is applied to the towball? 

Spare me. Back to school for you, me thinks. Cheers (And no profanities!)

 



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The gravitational force exerted by an object is given by F=mg where F is the force in newtons, m is the mass in kilograms, and g is the acceleration due to gravity, 9.81 m/s2.

Vary the force and the weight displayed changes, gravity and mass remain constant.

A WDH varies force...

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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Yobarr 

You have very often claimed that a WDH increases a vans ATM when you should use the term laden weight. I think Gregg is just using the terms in the same way as you have.

Clearly the van CANNOT weigh more, remember F=MG (weight equals mass times the acceleration due to gravity)

This is the basic physical principle that you continue to refuse to accept. This accounts for the flaw in your beliefs.


Alan, i itially I had decided to ignore this post, as I usually do with your posts, but I've decided to AGAIN try to help you.

Great to see that, after 5 years or so, you seem to have FINALLY accepted that a WDH does NOT change towball weight.

Now that we have established tgat tiwball weight does not change it is exceedingly easy to demonstrate that the weight of the van has increased. 

Rather than simply refer to this as weight, which 99% of readers would understand, let's just confuse the issue by referring to it as downward force, or whatever term suits you. 

IF you have carried out the weigh ridge testing procedures I have, many times, outlined you should by now understand that wgen a WDH is tensioned there is weight removed from the REAR AXLE of tge car.

Most of this weight is distributed to the car's front axle, with a smaller percentage distributed to the van's axle group.

Because we know that towball weight does not change, and because we know there is extravweight transferred to the van,s axle group, it is fairly obvious that there is an increasec in weight of the van. (Or downward force, or whatever you wish to call it).

Your ramblings are of little interest to me, but I despair that newbies or current members who simply are trying to learn, will take what yiu write as fact. It isn't. Cheers



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Greg, unfortunately I don't have time to give you the detailed response that your detailed post deserves, as I have done huge hours on tge Roadtrain this week, and I need to get some sleep today.

Maybe another time, but I do have records of our previous interactions on this topic where I was proved right. Cheers



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I would argue that the very act of placing a pig trailer on the back of your 4WD is asking the car to do something it really wasn't designed to do in the first place yobarr. Manufacturers place towing limits on their vehicles because they know that many customers are going to be towing stuff about and we have moved on from the days of towing anything you wanted with the family Holden or Falcon, not because the car is specifically designed to do this task, but you can do so if you wish within those manufacturer placed limits. A WDH, if used correctly, does nothing more than enhance the cars ability to tow within those limits in a safer manner. It is why some manufacturers mandate their use under certain conditions. It is not a fix for an overloaded or poorly loaded rig. I have often seen WDH's used for that purpose and poorly set up. In those instances I would have to say they are being asked to do something for which it has not been designed and the user has little understanding of what it proper purpose is.

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Greg O'Brien



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Just to clear something up... the difference between weight and mass. An objects mass is a constant no matter where it is placed in the universe so an object of 50kg mass on earth will still be 50kg mass on the moon. And objects weight is that which it's mass is acted upon by gravitational force, so 50 kgs mass on earth (at sea level and it does vary from place to place) is 50kgs weight whereas on the moon it will weigh 8kgs because of the lower gravitational force. With things such as a caravan, a car or a bag of spuds, it is accepted that we use the term "weight" as here on earth it is being affected by our gravitational force. We don't deal with things in space for every day occurances so being pedantic about van towing weights being mass or weight really has very little relevance to the discussion with what will show up on a set of scales. So might I suggest that the term weight is used so as not to confuse the issue.

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Greg O'Brien



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That only holds true when you ignore any other forces acting on it.

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The device you are debating is a WEIGHT Distribution Hitch. As the name suggests, it redistributes (moves) WEIGHT.
It has no effect whatever on MASS.
Cheers,
Peter



-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 21st of January 2024 07:41:31 PM

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yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:

Again I will say that a WDH is used only by people who are trying to make a car do things for which it was not designed.

Indesputable, inconvenient truth.


 Yobarr you have never provided Indesputible Inconvienent proof to support your opinion, not one shread of evidence.

However even the Society of American Engineers support the use of weight distribution hitches, countless designers and manufactures including major automodile manufactures like Ford and Toyota recommend their use in certain circumstances.

I have a opinion that people who have GVM-GCM upgrades are trying to make a car do things for which it was not designed, but in fact that statement is incorrect because the engineers who designed the upgrade for SSM's make it safe and legal. You present picture after picture of individuals who used a WDH incorrectly, thats not the fault of the WDH, its the fault of the user.

I wonder why WDH manufactures have never faced litigation, perhaps its because when used properly they are an asset to towing. just like friction sway control and more modern versions that are an improvment to safe towing. Its no different to hitches the cup and ball through to the laterest offerings, some are are loved and others have detractors, all are a progression of safe towing. Alas we are such a small market we are 10 or more years behind availability of the latest WDH designs which improve performance and safety.

So may I politely tell you to provided you evidence or shut the F up.


 Graham, sad that  you feel the need  to resort to profanities simply because you cannot, do not, or will not understand the facts that I selflessly have, many times, presented. As usual you have either misunderstood or are misrepresenting my submissions.

Simply, can you explain why any car needs a WDH to enable it to reach its allocated tow capacity? 

Surely that car should be able to tow its rating as it leaves the production line, without add-ons?

Because I have many times explained this, in detail, and you STILL don't understand, there is little more that I can do.

Many times I have suggested that, in your case, Ford mandate the use of a WDH above a certain weight because they KNOW that the car's rear axle is not up to the task. I can't be bothered iterating what has been posted many times, but I respectfully suggest that you discard your stupid tape measure and move into the 21st century.

Surely you understand that using a tape measure is ridiculous, considering variables such as TBW, car wheelbase, and Towball overhang, as well as the all-important spring rates, all have a major influence on how a car's attitude changes when a weight is applied to the towball? 

Spare me. Back to school for you, me thinks. Cheers (And no profanities!)

 


 A typical response full of opinion but no supporting evidence, I have no idea why Ford's designers and engineers chose to mandate the use of one but I do know they are a very effective piece of equipment.

It just proves that you actually have no idea about setting one up. It's like the chicken and egg thing !. To get to the weighbridge safely with your fully laden combination must balanced, I suppose an expert like you could do it by eye, but I prefer to follow the instructions for the installation and use of equipment. When that is complete I can go to the weighbridge, iits amazing 9 times of 10, I don't need to make any adjustment.

But a typical Aussie male trait, I don't need to read the instructions, I'll just wing it, until it goes pear shape.



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Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

The device you are debating is a WEIGHT Distribution Hitch. As the name suggests, it redistributes (moves) WEIGHT.
It has no effect whatever on MASS.
Cheers,
Peter


 Thanks Peter for helping simplify the matter.  Always there is someone trying to appear knowledgeable by introducing Red Herrings that unnecessarily complicate a simple issue.

Always my efforts are made in an effort to help people understand their weights, how they can be managed, their cars' limitations and the stupidity of trying to make a car do things for which it never was designed.

In the face of all adversity we can only battle on. 

There are several members who have learned stuff, but there also are others who stubbornly refuse to accept facts. C'est la vie! Cheers



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yobarr wrote:

Alan, i itially I had decided to ignore this post, as I usually do with your posts, but I've decided to AGAIN try to help you.

Great to see that, after 5 years or so, you seem to have FINALLY accepted that a WDH does NOT change towball weight.

Now that we have established tgat tiwball weight does not change it is exceedingly easy to demonstrate that the weight of the van has increased. 

Rather than simply refer to this as weight, which 99% of readers would understand, let's just confuse the issue by referring to it as downward force, or whatever term suits you. 

IF you have carried out the weigh ridge testing procedures I have, many times, outlined you should by now understand that wgen a WDH is tensioned there is weight removed from the REAR AXLE of tge car.

Most of this weight is distributed to the car's front axle, with a smaller percentage distributed to the van's axle group.

Because we know that towball weight does not change, and because we know there is extravweight transferred to the van,s axle group, it is fairly obvious that there is an increasec in weight of the van. (Or downward force, or whatever you wish to call it).

Your ramblings are of little interest to me, but I despair that newbies or current members who simply are trying to learn, will take what yiu write as fact. It isn't. Cheers


 Yobarr 

How on earth did you get this idea that I believe that tow ball weight does not change.

Rons calculations prove it does and so do mine, Rons based in mathematics, mine based in pure physics.

Don't you read posts and digest the information in them.

To me you seem to be in denial.



-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Tuesday 23rd of January 2024 08:46:08 AM

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KJB


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There are only 3 ways of changing Tow Ball Weight..

Change the position of the load in the van.

Shift the axle forward or back.

Extend or shorten the Van's tow bar.



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KB



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When the WDH is fitted, there is a large additional downward force applied to the caravan "A" frame by the chains.
What resists that force? What stops the "A" frame from moving downwards due to that force?
Cheers,
Peter

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Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

When the WDH is fitted, there is a large additional downward force applied to the caravan "A" frame by the chains.
What resists that force? What stops the "A" frame from moving downwards due to that force?


I assume you know the answer. The downwards force exerted by the bars is resisted by the upwards force of the bars that are lifting the back of the tow vehicle. That upwards force is greater than the downwards force, so more than counteracts it. The towball/coupling is under compression from those opposing forces, and the net effect is up. So that lifts the rear end, resulting in reduction of weight on the rear wheels.



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Are We Lost wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

When the WDH is fitted, there is a large additional downward force applied to the caravan "A" frame by the chains.
What resists that force? What stops the "A" frame from moving downwards due to that force?


I assume you know the answer. The downwards force exerted by the bars is resisted by the upwards force of the bars that are lifting the back of the tow vehicle. That upwards force is greater than the downwards force, so more than counteracts it. The towball/coupling is under compression from those opposing forces, and the net effect is up. So that lifts the rear end, resulting in reduction of weight on the rear wheels.


 That upwards force opposes the downward force of the tow bar thereby reducing it.

Since the total weight of the van is constant any increase in axle weight is counter balanced by a reduction in tow ball weight.

Seems strange to me that this is so difficult to understand, it is not quantum physics but fairly simple gravitational principles.

Alan



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KJB wrote:

There are only 3 ways of changing Tow Ball Weight..

Change the position of the load in the van.

Shift the axle forward or back.

Extend or shorten the Van's tow bar.


 Or use a WDH as has been shown by both Rons calculations and my basic physics.

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:
KJB wrote:

There are only 3 ways of changing Tow Ball Weight..

Change the position of the load in the van.

Shift the axle forward or back.

Extend or shorten the Van's tow bar.


 Or use a WDH as has been shown by both Rons calculations and my basic physics.

Alan


 Back to sleep, Alan.



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KJB


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Brenda and Alan wrote:
KJB wrote:

There are only 3 ways of changing Tow Ball Weight..

Change the position of the load in the van.

Shift the axle forward or back.

Extend or shorten the Van's tow bar.


 Or use a WDH as has been shown by both Rons calculations and my basic physics.

Alan


 

Yes, thanks for that Alan, well spotted.

The  WDH  brackets that are fixed to the van tow bar  definitely 

alter the Tow Ball Weight....I hope my oversight has not lead anyone astray......



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KB



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KJB wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
KJB wrote:

There are only 3 ways of changing Tow Ball Weight..

Change the position of the load in the van.

Shift the axle forward or back.

Extend or shorten the Van's tow bar.


 Or use a WDH as has been shown by both Rons calculations and my basic physics.

Alan


 

Yes, thanks for that Alan, well spotted.

The  WDH  brackets that are fixed to the van tow bar  definitely 

alter the Tow Ball Weight....I hope my oversight has not lead anyone astray......


 Ha Ha. Love it Kerry, but it probably will go straight over the head of at least one member who seems not to understand.Cheers



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Yobarr & Kerry

From your comments I assume you both believe that the car becomes lighter and the van heavier with the tensioning of a WDH'

This means that you reckon Isaac Newton is wrong in his theory of universal gravitation.

Would you two genius's give the benefit of your new theory of gravitation.

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Yobarr & Kerry

From your comments I assume you both believe that the car becomes lighter and the van becomes heavier with the tensioning of a WDH'

This means that you reckon Isaac Newton is wrong in his theory of universal gravitation.

Would you two genius's give the benefit of your new theory of gravitation.

Alan


Now, now Alan!  Back to sleep. Many times I have explained, in detail, the process that will enable you to prove to yourself that this occurs, and, quite frankly, I simply can't be bothered any more.

Your waffle doesn't concern me, but I despair that newbies, and others keen to learn, will heed your "advice", to their detriment.

Have a nice day, perhaps writing to HR to advise them of "Alan's Law", which is contary to their advice of 50 years. Cheers

P.S And it's "Geniuses", not genius's. An Apostrophe generally denotes ownership.



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Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr & Kerry

From your comments I assume you both believe that the car becomes lighter and the van becomes heavier with the tensioning of a WDH'


poor simple me !
I thought when you put tension on the WDH, some of the weight from the rear of the car was transferred to the front of the car and some to the van thus actually making the car lighter by transferring some weight from car to van and that was why it was called a WEIGHT DISTRABUTION HITCH

have I missed something?

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dogbox wrote:

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr & Kerry

From your comments I assume you both believe that the car becomes lighter and the van becomes heavier with the tensioning of a WDH'


poor simple me !
I thought when you put tension on the WDH, some of the weight from the rear of the car was transferred to the front of the car and some to the van thus actually making the car lighter by transferring some weight from car to van and that was why it was called a WEIGHT DISTRABUTION HITCH

have I missed something?


 Most certainly you have not "missed something". However, it seems that there is at least one member who is missing something.Cheers



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dogbox wrote:


have I missed something?


 You most certainly have. The actual weight(force) that the car itself exerts on the weighbridge does not and can't change. what is changing is the load (force) that the caravan exerts on the car has changed.

If in doubt google Newtons law of universal gravitation. The force that a mass on the surface of the earth exerts downwards is given by

[GM1m2divided by earths radius squared  M1 the mass of earth m2 the mass of the car G the gravitational constant] 

It can be clearly seen that the cars weight itself can't change.

Alan 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Thursday 25th of January 2024 12:23:43 PM

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yobarr wrote:

P.S And it's "Geniuses", not genius's. An Apostrophe generally denotes ownership.


 Irrelevant as you are certainly not a genius. You can't see the wood for the trees where physics is concerned.

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:
dogbox wrote:


have I missed something?


 You most certainly have. The actual weight(force) that the car itself exerts on the weighbridge does not and can't change. what is changing is the load (force) that the caravan exerts on the car has changed.

If in doubt google Newtons law of universal gravitation. The force that a mass on the surface of the earth exerts downwards is given by

[GM1m2divided by earths radius squared  M1 the mass of earth m2 the mass of the car G the gravitational constant] 

It can be clearly seen that the cars weight itself can't change.

Alan b


 NOW we see where you're playing silly games, as to most caravanners the term "weight" simply means how much weight is applied to the ground by the vehicles' wheels. 

Why try to complicate a simple matter? WDH does NOT change towball weight. m



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This pointless discussion on towball weight goes on and on in virtually every thread where weights come up. Once connected, the towball weight can't be measured on a weighbridge because it is internal to the workings of a WDH. What difference does it make? I have not seem any comments on here disputing what a WDH actually does to the weights on the wheels, and that is what matters.

Yobarr has been asked time and time again to explain his reasoning and is obviously incapable of explaining how it works.

Dead horse.jpg



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

dogbox wrote:


have I missed something?


 You most certainly have. The actual weight(force) that the car itself exerts on the weighbridge does not and can't change. what is changing is the load (force) that the caravan exerts on the car has changed.

If in doubt google Newtons law of universal gravitation. The force that a mass on the surface of the earth exerts downwards is given by

[GM1m2divided by earths radius squared  M1 the mass of earth m2 the mass of the car G the gravitational constant] 

It can be clearly seen that the cars weight itself can't change.

Alan 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Thursday 25th of January 2024 12:23:43 PM



if you take your rig to weighbridge drive car onto bridge leaving van off bridge, take a weight with wdh applied, then a weight without hitch applied, do you think the weight will stay the same or will some of weight be transferred to van (not on bridge) changing the weight of car on bridge??

the gross weight of the rig will not change but where the weight is distributed will be



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