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Post Info TOPIC: When do you need to disengage Weight Distribution Hitches


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RE: When do you need to disengage Weight Distribution Hitches
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yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:


Perhapstheexspertsherewillprovideeveryoneontheforumwithaneasytofollowprocedureforgoingovertheweighbridge


 Pathetic. Seems there are slow learners among us,because I have previously posted the procedure,several times. Long day on the 160 ton Road Train,and another couple of weeks ahead with long hours involved. Not really interested in working,but experienced truck drivers are desperately required here,so I am doing my bit to help. When I get a spare half hour,I will again post the procedure,but Dennis needs to be aware that neither a weighbridge,nor "towball weight scales" are of much use,the first because of weighing only in 20kg increments,and the second because they are so inaccurate that it is a joke. It would be a great help if Dennis could advise what car he has,and his TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitchpoint),and I'll do the rest! Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 26th of February 2022 10:11:18 PM


I need to be in Toowoomba in September so the trip start is tied to that event.

I have plenty of time so I'm in a research phase at present.

Being realistic I am 81 in good health but only have about 5 years of driving left.

I went up to Cape York tip in 2019 in a rear fold camper trailer but covid and family responsibilities have kept me down in(at present) sunny Mornington.

The 5 year figure is the warranty of a new vehicle and I also need to trade in the camper trailer for a caravan.

I am considering the 21ft. to 23ft. Snowy River for the van and maybe a Ford Ranger for the vehicle.

When the new Ranger comes out I think there may be some price adjustments for the model run out and  EFY sales to consider. Also the price they set for the new model may force other manufacturers to lower their prices to stay competitive.

So I have options.

 



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I just did a search on the 23 Snowy River and its tare weight if correct is < 2500kg but it has an ATM of 3500.
That is a massive 1 tonne of payload.

You may ask so what has this got to do with anything, well while the Ranger new or superseded will comfortably tow an empty 23 footer you would need to watch very closely the loaded weigh of your van.
There will be a cut off point both legally and safely before you reach your 1 tonne payload. This cut off point will be somewhere around 3000 to 3200 kg to remain legal. A lot depends on how much weight in extra goods you have in the Ranger.

I had a 19 foot Snowy River and I had a genuine payload of just under 500 kg and I know I am not comparing apples with apples but I might suggest that the 500 kg mark might be roughly the cut of point of payload for your 23 footer if being towed by a Ranger or any other similar ute.

With such a large payload allowance you will need to be very aware of exactly where you place this load relative to towing it with a Ranger.
If that load happens to be any way in the forward section of the van your TBW could easily go from the quoted 162 kg to 350 kg which then would seriously affect the weight performance of the Ranger.

The warranty period of the Ranger may pale into insignificance if you and your van end up *tits up* on the side of the highway.

Depending on how you plan to carry extra goods you may find that you dont have as many options with that combination as you may think you have.

Taking advice from a forum expert who is boasting about his prowess in the seat of a road train is probably not the way I would be going either..no



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Ivan 01 wrote:

I just did a search on the 23 Snowy River and its tare weight if correct is < 2500kg but it has an ATM of 3500.
That is a massive 1 tonne of payload.

You may ask so what has this got to do with anything, well while the Ranger new or superseded will comfortably tow an empty 23 footer you would need to watch very closely the loaded weigh of your van.
There will be a cut off point both legally and safely before you reach your 1 tonne payload. This cut off point will be somewhere around 3000 to 3200 kg to remain legal. A lot depends on how much weight in extra goods you have in the Ranger.

I had a 19 foot Snowy River and I had a genuine payload of just under 500 kg and I know I am not comparing apples with apples but I might suggest that the 500 kg mark might be roughly the cut of point of payload for your 23 footer if being towed by a Ranger or any other similar ute.

With such a large payload allowance you will need to be very aware of exactly where you place this load relative to towing it with a Ranger.
If that load happens to be any way in the forward section of the van your TBW could easily go from the quoted 162 kg to 350 kg which then would seriously affect the weight performance of the Ranger.

The warranty period of the Ranger may pale into insignificance if you and your van end up *tits up* on the side of the highway.

Depending on how you plan to carry extra goods you may find that you dont have as many options with that combination as you may think you have.

Taking advice from a forum expert who is boasting about his prowess in the seat of a road train is probably not the way I would be going either..no


 If I'm on the right track the ATM is a product of the vans suspension and brakes.

I have absolutely no intention of having a 1 ton payload, more like 200kg.

I learned a lot on my trip to the tip, including planning better so as not to be driving in the late afternoon when shadows hide dead kangaroos on the road and to expect warning signs to be missing. The kangaroo took out a wheel turning sensor which switched off 4 wheel drive and the missing warning sign found me flying through a creek crossing too fast which damaged the suspension of the camper trailer so I had to head to Weipa for repairs.

I hope I have learned from my experience.



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Jegog said

If I'm on the right track the ATM is a product of the vans suspension and brakes.

I have absolutely no intention of having a 1 ton payload, more like 200kg.

I learned a lot on my trip to the tip, including planning better so as not to be driving in the late afternoon when shadows hide dead kangaroos on the road and to expect warning signs to be missing. The kangaroo took out a wheel turning sensor which switched off 4 wheel drive and the missing warning sign found me flying through a creek crossing too fast which damaged the suspension of the camper trailer so I had to head to Weipa for repairs.

I hope I have learned from my experience.

And you said this above.

I am considering the 21ft. to 23ft. Snowy River for the van and maybe a Ford Ranger for the vehicle.

When the new Ranger comes out I think there may be some price adjustments for the model run out and  EFY sales to consider. Also the price they set for the new model may force other manufacturers to lower their prices to stay competitive.

So I have options.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

My apology,

When you said this I just thought you were indicating that you may be interested in others opinions on your intentions.

At 200 kg extra gear you certainly are a very light traveller.
A full tank of fuel conservatively weighs 50 kg and then you have gas bottles, the contents of a HWS and the extra if you intend to carry any water.

I toured in my Snowy by myself and I battled to keep my extra goods and chattles under the 500 kg allowance when I took into account the weight of fuel and water alone.

To answer the question in the OP, I would always disconnect my WDH when reverse parking onto a site, when I was off road and when I needed to disconnect my ute.

Travel safely

 



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Ivan 01 wrote:

Jegog said

If I'm on the right track the ATM is a product of the vans suspension and brakes.

I have absolutely no intention of having a 1 ton payload, more like 200kg.

I learned a lot on my trip to the tip, including planning better so as not to be driving in the late afternoon when shadows hide dead kangaroos on the road and to expect warning signs to be missing. The kangaroo took out a wheel turning sensor which switched off 4 wheel drive and the missing warning sign found me flying through a creek crossing too fast which damaged the suspension of the camper trailer so I had to head to Weipa for repairs.

I hope I have learned from my experience.

And you said this above.

I am considering the 21ft. to 23ft. Snowy River for the van and maybe a Ford Ranger for the vehicle.

When the new Ranger comes out I think there may be some price adjustments for the model run out and  EFY sales to consider. Also the price they set for the new model may force other manufacturers to lower their prices to stay competitive.

So I have options.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

My apology,

When you said this I just thought you were indicating that you may be interested in others opinions on your intentions.

At 200 kg extra gear you certainly are a very light traveller.
A full tank of fuel conservatively weighs 50 kg and then you have gas bottles, the contents of a HWS and the extra if you intend to carry any water.

I toured in my Snowy by myself and I battled to keep my extra goods and chattles under the 500 kg allowance when I took into account the weight of fuel and water alone.

To answer the question in the OP, I would always disconnect my WDH when reverse parking onto a site, when I was off road and when I needed to disconnect my ute.

Travel safely

 


For a caravan the Tare Mass is the total mass of the caravan with no load, unoccupied and with all fluid reservoirs, if fitted, filled to nominal capacity, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. After market optional add-ons (TV, mattresses, extra gas bottlles, awnings etc) are not inlcuded in the tare mass and are considered as a load, so must be included in your ATM measurement. The tare mass weight of your caravan can be found on the vehicle plate or in  the manufacturer's handbook.

I had not factored in fuel as I was considering only the caravan,

I wonder if the vehicle plate figure will include the extras, supplied and fitted by the manafacturer?

I want an extra battery and solar as well as Lithium batteries. 



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These are the correct definitions.

 


Resized_Screenshot_20220227-135901_Drive.jpeg



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Since the gist of the topic changed from when to disconnect a WDH to the legal and safe weights of a combination the weight of anything you have both in the vehicle and in the caravan will be factored in should you be weighed by any authority.

Once the vehicle is connected you then have another factor coming into play and that is GCM (Gross Combination Mass)which is the total weight of the van and the ute when hooked up, loaded and travelling on a public road.
In a circumstance your van may be under the ATM but the combination could be over weight and exceeding the GCM due to items loaded into the ute.

Load distribution can be and is in many cases a nightmare.

To comment in any detail is difficult because no one but you will know what extra goods you might end up with in either van, ute or both.

My suggestion regarding the 1 tonne of payload that the van may legally carry will be totally dependent on the legal capacity of the vehicle you are towing it with.
This situation raises its head on here and other forums very regularly, the only way to assess it so that you will be legal and safe is to weigh the combination and each unit separately on a weighbridge.
If you do only intend to carry 200 kgs extra then provided the load is distributed correctly you should be fine towing with a Ford Ranger.

I know I had to remove some items that I was carrying to achieve my payload of 500 kg. which was the weight that brought me in just under my GCM.
I collected a lot more gear as I travelled because I was out there full time in the van until being hit with the cancer stick which put the brakes on my travels.

I would check very carefully what is actually included or more to the point, not included, in the stated tare weight of any vehicle or caravan from the attached plate.

I know that there are many people who actually request a weigh note from a registered weighbridge to be supplied by the caravan dealer PRIOR to delivery handover.
To ask for this will be your choice.

Good luck with it all.

thank you oldbloke for the attachment which explains it all.



-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Sunday 27th of February 2022 02:28:05 PM

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Yep, that info is Freely available. The tricky bit is getting it in clear English. The defintions are often mixed up with less relevant and at times confusing info. The other thing is getting the correct info. Often it's just word of mouth or on the www and just wrong.

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oldbloke wrote:

Yep, that info is Freely available. The tricky bit is getting it in clear English. The defintions are often mixed up with less relevant and at times confusing info. The other thing is getting the correct info. Often it's just word of mouth or on the www and just wrong.


 Yes, all potential purchasers of new and even second hand vans and vehicles should read understand and absorb the meanings of the terminologies listed in your attachment.

A lot of inaccurate information could also come from an over exuberant sales person just telling a future owner what they want to hear as opposed to the facts.



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jegog wrote:

Just had a thought.
The tow bar and WDH would need to be included in the tow ball weight. If not the tow bar then the hitch needs to be included, yet none of the videos I have seen mention removing the hitch when measuring and calculating weights.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?


 No the towbar and WDH are part of the GVM.

 



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yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:


Perhapstheexspertsherewillprovideeveryoneontheforumwithaneasytofollowprocedureforgoingovertheweighbridge


 Pathetic. Seems there are slow learners among us,because I have previously posted the procedure,several times. Long day on the 160 ton Road Train,and another couple of weeks ahead with long hours involved. Not really interested in working,but experienced truck drivers are desperately required here,so I am doing my bit to help. When I get a spare half hour,  I will again post the procedure,  but Dennis needs to be aware that neither a weighbridge,nor "towball weight scales" are of much use when checking towball weight,the first because of weighing only in 20kg increments,and the second because they are so inaccurate that it is a joke. It would be a great help if Dennis could advise what car he has,and his TBO (towball overhang, or distance from rear axle to hitchpoint),and I'll do the rest! Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 27th of February 2022 07:46:17 AM


 HiYobarr,perhapsyoushouldhavereadmypreviouspostinsteadofonlylookingatit.

Idontthinkit'spathetictoaskthelocalexperttohelpamember. TobehonestIthinkthatisjustplainrudeofyoutocallitpathetic.Infactimoffendeddbyyouattempedtoattackmycharacter.

Ihavebeenamemberhereforafewyears,wouldyoupleasepointmetoapostswhereyouhaveclearlyexplainedinastepbystepprocedurehowtochechweightsonaweighbridge?Imusthavemissedallofthem.:(

Justareminderyoustillhavenotpostedtheprocedurethatyoupromisedtopostyesterday.I'msuretheprocedurewillbeperfectIknowyouarebusyhelpingcompaniesforfreeinordertoimprovethecountrieseconomybutsurelyyoucouldfindjustthirtyminutestohelpouttheOPandothermembers.Iknowyouwillbecausealmosteeveryoneofyourpostssayyouarehelpingmembersallthetime.Pleasetakethetroubletoreadtheabovepostandnotjustlookatit.Cheers:)Lookingforwardtoreadingtheprocedue.

OB;)

 



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Pathetic (X2)



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X2

Not pathetic.perhapsyoudidntreaditcarefully.Suggestyoureaditagain.

HiYobarr,perhapsyoushouldhavereadmypreviouspostinsteadofonlylookingatit.

Idontthinkit'spathetictoaskthelocalexperttohelpamember. TobehonestIthinkthatisjustplainrudeofyoutocallitpathetic.Infactimoffendeddbyyouattempedtoattackmycharacter.

Ihavebeenamemberhereforafewyears,wouldyoupleasepointmetoapostswhereyouhaveclearlyexplainedinastepbystepprocedurehowtochechweightsonaweighbridge?Imusthavemissedallofthem.:(

Justareminderyoustillhavenotpostedtheprocedurethatyoupromisedtopostyesterday.I'msuretheprocedurewillbeperfectIknowyouarebusyhelpingcompaniesforfreeinordertoimprovethecountrieseconomybutsurelyyoucouldfindjustthirtyminutestohelpouttheOPandothermembers.Iknowyouwillbecausealmosteeveryoneofyourpostssayyouarehelpingmembersallthetime.Pleasetakethetroubletoreadtheabovepostandnotjustlookatit.Cheers:)Lookingforwardtoreadingtheprocedue.

OB;)



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oldbloke wrote:


These are the correct definitions.

 


Resized_Screenshot_20220227-135901_Drive.jpeg


 The definition I gave in my previous post was copied and pasted from

https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/drivers/caravan-safety/weighing.html

Tare Mass is the total mass of the caravan with no load, unoccupied and with all fluid reservoirs, if fitted, filled to nominal capacity, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. After market optional add-ons (TV, mattresses, extra gas bottlles, awnings etc) are not inlcuded in the tare mass and are considered as a load, so must be included in your ATM measurement. The tare mass weight of your caravan can be found on the vehicle plate or in  the manufacturer's handbook.

I assume as the domain is roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au that that is the NSW government official definition.

Everything on the invoice should be included in the tare mass. Not that I would rely on a salesman assurances.



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I suggest you call them and ask if it includes water tanks and gas bottles in caravans.

This is fron vicroads. Water tanks NOT included. See last sentence.  That's 190kg as a rule. Normally gas also not included.

 

https://rvbooks.com.au/caravan-tare-weight-issues/

 

Screenshot_20220227-235353_Drive.jpg



-- Edited by oldbloke on Monday 28th of February 2022 12:31:15 AM

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That is a surprise to me as well. I always thought TARE was the weight as it left the factory. I can't think of what fluid reservoirs a van would have that are not water and gas. Grey and black water filled to nominal capacity? Hardly. Perhaps a little diesel to test a diesel heater, etc.

But, maybe it makes no difference even if NSW TARE does include water tanks.

I looked up the definition of "nominal". Depending on the site it is "an insignifcant amount" or "a trifling amount in comparison to normal". So if the factory tests the water tank and pump, there would be a nominal amount of water left in the tank that is insignificant in the total weight. There is no logic that the factory would put a nominal amount of gas in the bottle. I imagine they would connect a temporary bottle for testing.

So, in reality, it virtually means the same thing.



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Monday 28th of February 2022 01:40:19 AM

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Are We Lost wrote:

That is a surprise to me as well. I always thought TARE was the weight as it left the factory. I can't think of what fluid reservoirs a van would have that are not water and gas. Grey and black water filled to nominal capacity? Hardly. Perhaps a little diesel to test a diesel heater, etc.

But, maybe it makes no difference even if NSW TARE does include water tanks.

I looked up the definition of "nominal". Depending on the site it is "an insignifcant amount" or "a trifling amount in comparison to normal". So if the factory tests the water tank and pump, there would be a nominal amount of water left in the tank that is insignificant in the total weight. There is no logic that the factory would put a nominal amount of gas in the bottle. I imagine they would connect a temporary bottle for testing.

So, in reality, it virtually means the same thing.



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Monday 28th of February 2022 01:40:19 AM


 IMO you are correct. 

I'm guessing an IT person has copy pasted the definition for a car "tare mass" into caravan section not understanding the difference. 

 

Empty from factory is what it is. 



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jegog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:


Perhapstheexspertsherewillprovideeveryoneontheforumwithaneasytofollowprocedureforgoingovertheweighbridge


 Pathetic. Seems there are slow learners among us,because I have previously posted the procedure,several times. Long day on the 160 ton Road Train,and another couple of weeks ahead with long hours involved. Not really interested in working,but experienced truck drivers are desperately required here,so I am doing my bit to help. When I get a spare half hour,I will again post the procedure,but Dennis needs to be aware that neither a weighbridge,nor "towball weight scales" are of much use,the first because of weighing only in 20kg increments,and the second because they are so inaccurate that it is a joke. It would be a great help if Dennis could advise what car he has,and his TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitchpoint),and I'll do the rest! Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 26th of February 2022 10:11:18 PM


I need to be in Toowoomba in September so the trip start is tied to that event.

I have plenty of time so I'm in a research phase at present.

Being realistic I am 81 in good health but only have about 5 years of driving left.

I went up to Cape York tip in 2019 in a rear fold camper trailer but covid and family responsibilities have kept me down in(at present) sunny Mornington.

The 5 year figure is the warranty of a new vehicle and I also need to trade in the camper trailer for a caravan.

I am considering the 21ft. to 23ft. Snowy River for the van and maybe a Ford Ranger for the vehicle.

When the new Ranger comes out I think there may be some price adjustments for the model run out and  EFY sales to consider. Also the price they set for the new model may force other manufacturers to lower their prices to stay competitive.

So I have options. 


Hi Dennis. Great that you are in no rush,as I am a bit busy for a couple of weeks,but I will be more than happy to help you then. Where abouts in Australia are you? Ranger is great vehicle,with a couple of problems, but I have all relevant data in my records. Weights are understood by few, although some seem to think that they know. Previously I have helped other members by either visiting their homes,or talking on the phone and answering their list of questions , as I find that it is much easier than "to and fro" on the forum. Initial contact is by PM. Good luck with your research. Cheers



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I think that in the real life of travellers with caravans, the number stamped against the *Tare* heading on their vans compliance plate means Jack Schmitt.

When the traveller is dragged kicking and screaming onto a weigh bridge by a road traffic or police officer the Tare figure is negated.
What they will be checking will be GCM or GTM, ATM of van GVM of vehicle and if all this is not enough, then the TBW of the van.

Full water tanks, gas bottles, HW services being full as well as the dunny canister will eat a long way into the OPs anticipated 200kg.

This is why many responsible dealers selling vans these days supply a weighnote from a registered weighbridge to the purchaser on the day of handover and then during that handover the responsible dealer will show the new owner the figure on the weighnote and explain that all payload calculations MUST start from this weighnote figure. This new weighnote will at the least, include all the extras that the dealer may be responsible for fitting between the time the van leaves the factory to the time the new owner hooks it up for travelling home from that selling dealer.

This has existed with all other forms of goods carrying transport vehicles at least since as far back in time as I can remember.

When you are on the weighbridge being weighed by an official and you are exceeding your regulated figures, most excuses wont cut it.
Generally you will be required to remove items from the combination until your vehicle complies with stated weight limits before you will be permitted to continue your journey.

It is a shame that all states in this country can not work toward a common cause and even more important, having common terminology particularly when *old mate* from another state interprets the road rules differently than you might in your home state.

HaHaHa, talk about going off topic, this topic will be up there with the best of them.

Good luck with setting up your van jegog, you will get there in the end.

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yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:


Perhapstheexspertsherewillprovideeveryoneontheforumwithaneasytofollowprocedureforgoingovertheweighbridge


 Pathetic. Seems there are slow learners among us,because I have previously posted the procedure,several times. Long day on the 160 ton Road Train,and another couple of weeks ahead with long hours involved. Not really interested in working,but experienced truck drivers are desperately required here,so I am doing my bit to help. When I get a spare half hour, I will again post the procedure,but Dennis needs to be aware that neither a weighbridge,nor "towball weight scales" are of much use when checking towball weight,the first because of weighing only in 20kg increments,and the second because they are so inaccurate that it is a joke. It would be a great help if Dennis could advise what car he has,and his TBO (towball overhang, or distance from rear axle to hitchpoint),and I'll do the rest! Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 27th of February 2022 07:46:17 AM


 Sooo, yobarr has since posted several times now. Must be well over 20 posts in this thread. Still no procedure.

I guess too busy boasting about his LC and his fridge to help the OP.   Exposed again. Full of BS.



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There is one serious flaw in yobarr's consistent bagging of almost every towing vehicle except his beloved LC79, he uses the 3500kg ATM in all his calculations but there are many like me who don't have or want a 3500kg van.



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Gundog wrote:

There is one serious flaw in yobarr's consistent bagging of almost every towing vehicle except his beloved LC79, he uses the 3500kg ATM in all his calculations but there are many like me who don't have or want a 3500kg van.


 

Lol. Yes, I have touched on that. Only a low percentage of vans even 3t



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Gundog wrote:

There is one serious flaw in yobarr's consistent bagging of almost every towing vehicle except his beloved LC79, he uses the 3500kg ATM in all his calculations but there are many like me who don't have or want a 3500kg van.


 Hi Graham. There is no "flaw" in what you term "consistent bagging" as I merely point out the inabilities of these claimed "3500kg tow" vehicles. Agreed that there are vans under 3500kg, and I am more than happy to give advice to owners of any vehicle or van, regardless of ATM and GVM etc. However, it would take far too long to discuss the towing abilities of EVERY tow vehicle when giving general advice. As I already have stated, I am more than happy to help any individual owner without "help" from well-intentioned members who might do well to simply learn. Cheers



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Are We Lost wrote:

That is a surprise to me as well. I always thought TARE was the weight as it left the factory. I can't think of what fluid reservoirs a van would have that are not water and gas. Grey and black water filled to nominal capacity? Hardly. Perhaps a little diesel to test a diesel heater, etc.

But, maybe it makes no difference even if NSW TARE does include water tanks.

I looked up the definition of "nominal". Depending on the site it is "an insignifcant amount" or "a trifling amount in comparison to normal". So if the factory tests the water tank and pump, there would be a nominal amount of water left in the tank that is insignificant in the total weight. There is no logic that the factory would put a nominal amount of gas in the bottle. I imagine they would connect a temporary bottle for testing.

So, in reality, it virtually means the same thing.



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Monday 28th of February 2022 01:40:19 AM


Did you lookup nominal capacity?

According to

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/nominal-capacity

In the USA nominal capacity means the volume indicated by the manufacturer that represents the maximum recommended filling level.

 

https://www.deweywaters.co.uk/nominal-capacity-vs-actual-usable-capacity-water-tank/

The UK nominal capacity. This is the volume of the tank when filled to the brim. Calculated by multiplying the length x width x height e.g. 3m x 2m x 2m = a nominal capacity 12,000 litres.

Nominal capacity has varying meanings dependent upon context. Batteries, air tanks, manufacturing processes all use the term and all have slightly different meanings.

But nominal amount and nominal capacity have completely different meanings and are not interchangable.

As with all government acts there will be included a definitions section. However the definition that one searches for could reside in the definitions section of a referred to document.

But as others have said, when push comes to shove, it is the man with the authority to stop you from proceeding who matters and if you disagree then that is what the courts are for.



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Hi all,
I think I will close this now. Just a reminder to refrain from personal attacks in threads. 



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