Terry. The pricing of these Lif4po? whatever.
I think people will be using Wet and AGM cells for a lot more yrs yet.

Only people with more than a few bucks to spare
and battery freaks (Like me with my torches and fishing gear)
would really go far down that road.
Till pricing comes into parity with normal ones.
$800+ plus an AGM to boost it?. PER battery?

IF the weights of battery\s in your rig give a person problems.
He has bigger problems to worry about than that..

Latest technology is fine.  Just let somebody else practice on it. I reckon.

MY side..

Hnmmm.
Just a USER for 40 yrs and taking note of what the tradies tell me when they doing such.

A man can't do much more than that. When he Mechanical not electric orientated.

PS I always said I was near 0 when it comes to fancy figures in things electrical.

I'm Just the practical side of things..

I'm VERY good an old, dozer dragline or yacht though.
Everybody to their own hey.

I'm just talking several Professionals talk Information passed TO ME, in conversations. is all.
Last one was an A class electronics tech so should know a little?. He designed and installed
(Part owner)

Who IS right. Will eventuate eventually.

Same a panels and normal battery's
I install Battery's to suit what I need then top up on panels til it floats at MY requirements.
As a lot do.

Plus. some can't afford all in one hit.

I can guarantee one thing though.
Those Lifpo4? whatever battery's will NOT eventuate for the normal working man
for a LOOONG time. if ever.

Bit like a Lambo, and a Falcon. Not everything is for everybody.

You happy with what you sell and pushing. Most are happy with what there is for a long while yet.

Enjoy them. At $800ish a pop. NOT too many have them on their list. regardless of what some say they will do.

Bit less crap in van. Plenty of room for AGM's (weight) anyway hey.

PS. It's funny not many (only 1 I've seen yet)
Will quote on public paper. what a fixed?. certain capacity battery bank will cost. installed to suit
a system. In Dollars...(he quoted individual battery prices)

You want to?. 2 or three examples.
1 x caravan. Usual. plus Wash mach. coffee maker. Microwave etc etc.

1 x home with full household items. OFF grid.
Panels. Battery bank and install. (You reckon you've done a few now.)

Examples in Dollars would be nice. for future possible customers, from here alone.
Just a basic system no fancy what if's.???
1 23ft van. 1 x 4 bed home single storey. (or double) would be a good start point.

OR Just a battery bank for a 5kw solar system ready installed.(5 kw std system)
We can compare with Tesla then.

I'm actually in line for an OFF grid over pool deck to cover pool pumps and heaters.

Panels sorted. And also, MY reason for battery interests.

I WILL buy a bank WHEN.

No John.

he keeps on about his super battery's.
I'm just wondering. basically for everybody.
How viable ARE they in real world.

do we wait for pricing to drop
or are they likely to bee too over the top for too long??.

Just interested.
I am after a bank for my Pool Off Grid at later date.

I do use Li-Ion a lot. in 18650 and 22650 sizes.
Got some 14500? on way to to replace AA cells too.
Panasonic. LG or Sony (Japan). or Soshine ,China. only.
KeepPower too exxy and only run Pana's inside anyway, as do most others.

PS. NEVER Grumpy in real life.

You wouldn't believe how laid back he is.

Just reacts to others. At times,  is all.

Having posted that - they will probably die tomorrow!

T1 Terry wrote:

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jules47 wrote:

---

The batteries in our motorhome are 6-1/2 years old - used EVERY day- we have 2 x 120ah deep cycle(?) think that is what they are called, and 210 w on the roof.

These batteries have never been below 12.4 - and that is a rarity - not sure of the brand but will probably look at getting the same ones,

---

You certainly don't use the batteries much if they have never been below 12.4v over night after rainy weather and they are now 6 1/2 yrs old. I'd suggest a capacity test but when they fell over I'd be blamed for their death, not that they were dead already you just hadn't seen the signs.

Lithium batteries are for those who use their batteries, not keep them as pets. Those who spend most of their time off grid and stay away for more than a week at a time wonder how they ever got by once the changed up to lithium. Very few of them still carry their generator and slowly but surely more things accepted as comfort requirements make their way into the set up.

People as just built that way, the battery bank is similar to the wallet, you stop spending when the wallet is empty, batteries are similar so when that empty point moves up a bit the temptation to find the empty point is too great to ignore. That empty point is a long way away compared to where it was with the AGM batteries

T1 Terry 

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Gday...

Firstly, given the little I know, have read and heard about Lithium batteries/systems I can only agree they appear impressive.

Particularly, as you say, for those who have heavy power usage requirements, wish to camp 'off the grid' for extended periods for many years to come, then they must be worth the considerable initial outlay.

However, I have found that my AGM 'system' performs much as Jules has indicated theirs does.

I have been camping 'off the grid' for weeks at a time over the past eight years with my one 120Ahr AGM and 360W solar on the roof. My battery has not been below 12.4V at daybreak for the nearly four years it has been installed. I had a 100Ahr before that. Even on overcast days, the battery is restored to float (13.4V) by lunchtime - definitely by mid-morning in sunny weather. 

I have found though that if there are three or four consecutive days of rain - I would need to get the genny out on the fourth day to 'tickle' the battery back to a 'safer' SOC. To be fair the genny has only been started once for five hours two years ago when camped on the Murrumbidgee.

I admit I am a light user of power. I have LEDs throughout the van and if I only use one of two of them with just the radio and laptop for about four hours of a night, the battery doesn't get below 12.6V at daybreak. If I use the TV for two hours on the occasional night, that is when I see 12.4V at daybreak. The fridge runs on gas, I cook on the campfire or gas in van.

I don't think my batteries are "kept as pets" it is just that I don't use much power and the solar keeps the battery in good nick.

I reckon I am more likely to expire before the AGMs do  so I would find I don't have enough time to recoup the investment into lithium.

So, given all that, converting to a lithium system, despite its capabilities, is just not worth it to me.

Cheers - John

I read your comments with interest John, your experience almost mirrors ours. We have two 120ah Full Rivers that have been installed for two years fed by 400w roof panels. The batteries have never gone below 12.4 to my knowledge. As for Lithium batteries I have no doubt that they are much better for extended bush sojourns but, as we only spend at most three to four days doing this the Lithium's would not benefit us much from a cost point of view.

Many thanks Terry for your informative post on this subject.

jules47 wrote:

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Re your reply to my post Terry - our batteries get used every day (365 days a year) - mostly charging laptops, phones etc. etc. and into the night as well. We have a dimmable led light bar, which is pretty well the only light we use - we run1 2v Caframo fans, sometimes all day, and at night. We use gas or the Weber for cooking. We don't have satellite TV - or even watch TV (we do have one), we run our stereo all day (24 hrs). We have a 600 (whatever it is) inverter for things like razors, hair dryer etc. , we have a three way fridge (tropically rated) run on gas. I also have a Black & Decker vacuum cleaner that is very power efficient as well.

We have no need for coffee makers, constant hot water, toaster, or air conditioners, or electric blankets or ovens.

If we get bad weather for a couple of days - we put the genny on.

Our batteries are not pets, they make our lifestyle possible, and we take care of them. I agree with RL - not worth it to us, good though we hear the system is.

As someone a long time ago said to me - if it ain't broke, don't "fix" it!

(ps - I thought your remark saying our batteries are "pets" was quite unnecessary and slightly supercilious)

---

The batteries as pets refers to the use, much like keeping a cattle dog as a pet. The battery is designed to work between 50% SOC and 100% soc or 14.4/8v and 12v, depending on the type of lead acid as to the end of boost voltage. If you only use a bit of that capacity then it is much like feeding the cattle dog but it not actually doing any work, a pet. There is no value at all in carrying around extra battery storage that you are never going to use. There is no financial logic in carrying around 2 x 120Ah batteries that might last for 6 yrs when a single 120Ah battery will still provide the energy storage and maybe only last for 3 yrs..... every 3 yrs you have a fresh battery and you have saved 30 kg or more in weight and gained a bit of room.

It might hurt to be told you are wasting money with the set up you have now by treating your batteries as pets, but often the truth can be a tad painful

T1 Terry

T1 Terry wrote:

---

You certainly don't use the batteries much if they have never been below 12.4v over night after rainy weather and they are now 6 1/2 yrs old. I'd suggest a capacity test but when they fell over I'd be blamed for their death, not that they were dead already you just hadn't seen the signs.

Lithium batteries are for those who use their batteries, not keep them as pets. ~~~SNIP

 

T1 Terry 

---

 Gday...

I am a bit confused by your advice/comments, Terry.

Are you suggesting that using an AGM battery down to only 12.4V overnight is "keeping them as pets" because "The battery is designed to work between 50% SOC and 100% soc or 14.4/8v and 12v." 

I had been told that 100% SOC is actually 12.7V - ie 14.4V is at either bulk or absorption charge and 13.4V at float (100%) and dropping to 12.7V (100%) when charge ceases - eg sun disappears.

I was provided with this chart some time ago to use to have some idea of 'acceptable' SOC of AGM battery.

That chart indicates that an AGM being drawn down to 50% (12.06V) is into the area of 'caution'.

However, 12.4V which is down to where my battery is usually drawn by my overnight usage, is 80% SOC.

One would have thought that drawing down to 80% and then returning to 13.4V float (through bulk/absorption charge) by late morning, then sitting at 12.7V at sunset and drawing down to 80% (12.4V) after overnight usage would have been a good usage of that battery ... and for its longevity.

Am I, and others who have given me that advice, incorrect?

If so, why ... and please use lay-person terms as I am definitely not in anyway 'electrically inclined' - I just try to respond to, and utilise, advice gained from those who have greater knowledge/experience/training/qualifications.

Cheers - John

Gday...

Thanks Terry, that is helpful.

From the chart you provide from that website, you suggest -  "To me that says fully charged is 12.8v or better and 50% SOC is 12v"

I reckon that looks pretty much in agreement with the battery manufacturer's "customer guide" chart I posted earlier, given to me by a battery retailer which also shows ....

• 12.7V = 100%
• 12.06V = 50%

And thanks for the interesting techno jargon about the LifePO4 batteries ... but to be frank, it doesn't matter a rat's wrinkle to me ... I am not interested in LifePO4.

As I said before - "I reckon I am more likely to expire before AGMs do, so I would reckon I don't have enough time to recoup the investment into lithium.

So, given all that, converting to a lithium system, despite its excellent capabilities for heavy power users, is just not worth it to me."

Cheers - and thanks agen - John

Folks, you will need to make allowances for Terry. He is in the business of selling and installing LiFeO4 battery systems, so he is not remotely impartial in this discussion. He is a salesman and takes a salesman's perspective.
Like many others, I use AGM batteries for a largely electric motorhome. My current set are 8 years old in January.
If someday I remove our gas cooking and replace it with induction then I may well look at Li too, but the most significant part of that change would be more solar and a larger inverter, but until then, AGMs will do the job admirably and at a fraction of the replacement costs of Li.

ps Terry.... since you are using the Fullriver data to your own advantage, where does it say anything about not taking them below 50%?
And... a 6A constant average load is way over what most users would be typically wanting from a 100Ah battery of any kind in an RV.

Cheers,
Peter