Is doing this with an inverter a good idea...

aussie_paul · Guru

Is doing this with an inverter a good idea...

Allany · Veteran Member

I have done this with my van in the past with a 800watt inverter
Voltage drop from inverter through the van is the biggest problem
Don't know of any reason why you cannot do it htis way

Allan

hako · Guru

I'm probably 100% wrong but I'd say for a start any earth leakage/RCD safety devices will probably not work so if you touch live 240Vac it will not trip the safety devices. My bet is it also contravenes regulations. Sounds good but hey!

SnowT · Guru

One Word....

Stupid.....

As Denis said.. NO PROTECTION....

Juergen

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi

X3

While not illegal , it is potentially dangerous

People have suffered severe shocks & electructions using/ having connected multiple Class 1 appliance/ devicess[which must always have a 3pin plug] to isolated supplies

Due to those accidents & deaths the SAFETY RECOMENDATION IS '

NEVER have more than ONE Class 1device appliance connected at any time

Your van itself IS THAT ONE class one appliance you should not connect ANY other Class 1 appliances to the van power Those other devices include most fridges ,battery chargers electric kettle, toasters [ANY thing that has been factory fitted with a 3pin plug]

It also includes any device permanently wired in that requires an "earth" connection

As others have stated

The VAN RCD /safety switch [IF one is fitted is not functional & offers no protection against shocks to earth should faults develop in the wiring or appliances/ devices

DO not think that the RCD is functional because it trips when you use the "TEST button .

That only checks the RCD itself

It does not test that the whole system is wired for correct RCD operationm

This Safety RECOMMENDATION applies to ALL isolated supplies including INVERTERS &GENERATORS

PeterQ

rockylizard · Guru

oldtrack123 wrote:
Hi
~~~SNIP
NEVER have more than ONE Class 1 device appliance connected at any time
Your van itself IS THAT ONE class one appliance you should not connect ANY other Class 1 appliances to the van power Those other devices include most fridges ,battery chargers electric kettle, toasters [ANY thing that has been factory fitted with a 3pin plug]
~~~SNIP
PeterQ

Gday...

As a complete uninformed, ignorant lay-person when it comes to electricity, I would welcome some further elaboration/explanation, in basic lay-person language, regarding the information you have shared above.

To my now confused mind, does what you say mean that once the van is plugged into 240v power, via the extension cord to the van park powerboard, then NOTHING else should (can?) be plugged in - as the van is "that one Class 1 appliance" ??

Cheers - John

PeterD · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
1. As a complete uninformed, ignorant lay-person when it comes to electricity, I would welcome some further elaboration/explanation, in basic lay-person language, regarding the information you have shared above.
2. To my now confused mind, does what you say mean that once the van is plugged into 240v power, via the extension cord to the van park powerboard, then NOTHING else should (can?) be plugged in - as the van is "that one Class 1 appliance" ??

1. A class 1 appliance is one that is not double insulated and needs its metal case to be connected to an earth circuit.

2. When you plug your van into a caravan park power socket you have your van and the cases properly earthed through the earth lead in your power cord.

When you plug your van into a portable generator or an inverter there is no earth connection. You are therefore not protected if there are a couple or more leaky appliances. Getting between two of these will not cause an unbalance of currents in the active and neutral circuits in the safety switch as no current will flow to earth (as there is no earth circuit.) The only time a safety switch will trip is if some of the current in the active circuit leaks through you (or something else) to earth. I'm not going into great detail to explain this any further as it will most likely fuddle your mind. You will just have to accept that two or more appliances can be faulty at the same time. I can assure you that they can, they have done so in the past and people have been killed by that happening. Just because that has not been reported in the press or if they have you have not read the reports doles not mean that this has not happened.

oldtrack123 · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
As a complete uninformed, ignorant lay-person when it comes to electricity, I would welcome some further elaboration/explanation, in basic lay-person language, regarding the information you have shared above.
To my now confused mind, does what you say mean that once the van is plugged into 240v power, via the extension cord to the van park powerboard, then NOTHING else should (can?) be plugged in - as the van is "that one Class 1 appliance" ??
Cheers - John

HI John

No, it has nothing to do with the Van park or any other mains supply.

It applies to the use of "portable generater & inverters'" plugged into the van power inlet socket Or directly into the generator or inverter

In Addition to PeterD's post

I guess it is a question of the meaning of thoses word{ Should} [ Shall] [Can}

"Should" in the technical since means something which " should be done" or"should not done", but is not mandatory[That is a recommendation]

" "SHALL" means it is mandatory[MUST] be done

" Can" best I suppose As you can do what ever you want ,provideYOU accept the consequences biggrin

in this case," The connection of only ONE class1 device is [as I said ]the safety recommendation for very good reasons.

IF it was banned the wording would be" SHALL NOT"

Yes, you" can" connect your generator/ inverter into the power inlet socket & you "can" use other appliances.

Just as one can do many things that may have risks to themselves or others

But be aware thet if certain faults occur within the electrical system /appliances /devices, Electric shocks & electrocution can occur/

have occurred using more than ONE Class1 appliance device

^ Remember you have no protection against such shocks to"earth[meaningthe frame of the van or any metal connected to the frame & including other Class1 appliances/

Simply because the VAN RCD is not functional, Even though it trips when you press the "Test button"

Now some will say the risks are low & in fact there is no risk, until faults develop in either the van wiring or connected appliances

cominginto contact It also needs two faults

The problem is one fault could exist for ages & you may never know it exists until that second fault which could involve a person between something that had become "LIVE" & "'Earth" or possible two appliances

The Recomendation has existed for something like over40 years & came in when Isolated supplies [SAFTY PAKS] where first intoduced [before the time of RCDs'] to reduce shock risks with portable class 1 handtools

I Personnaly had to investigate two seperate bad electrical shocks were such were being used1968]both in the same area!!

In both cases the "recommendation" had been ignored& Double adaptors were in use with two class 1 pieces of equipment

There have been sufficient shocks for it to mandatory that ALL such generators & inverters ,for hire, used in industry ,commercially etc

Must now have a PERMANENTLY fitted & wired fully functional RCD

In fact many generator makers are NOW fitting some form of RCD protection[earth fault protection] to their generators as standard

So it seems they recognise the risks smile

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 31st of March 2015 12:00:47 AM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 31st of March 2015 12:05:08 AM

Goldfinger · Senior Member

Q: How do others connect their Generator to their vans when free camping to run their Air Conditioner, or Microwave at separate times...through the 240V inlet socket?.....appreciate honest responses to what they are doing at present.....Hoo Roo

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

PeterD - Thanks for the explanation. Short, succinct and basic. I understood that.

PeterQ - Thanks for the response. But, if it hadn't been for PeterD's response, I would have been even more confused. cry

Cheers - and may the power be with you - John

hako · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
SNIP
Cheers - and may the power be with you - John

Love your last line rockylizard biggrin biggrin biggrin

dragonfly1 · Senior Member

Hi goldfinger

we have a rvd fitted to our motorhome which is different to a RCD and will trip if there is a problem when using a generator or a inverter

Dragonfly 1

Brownie2 · Senior Member

Hi all, I seem to remember that when I bought our Honda generator the instructions stated that if you intend to plug in any equipment that is not double insulated that you must use an earthing rod connected to the generator. (There is an earth point on the control panel). I did make up a copper rod and earth lead. I once mentioned this to a fellow camper and he poo hooed the idea. I guess, if I am reading these comments correctly, it would not only be a good idea, but of great importance. Thanks for the posts.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Brownie2 wrote:
Hi all, I seem to remember that when I bought our Honda generator the instructions stated that if you intend to plug in any equipment that is not double insulated that you must use an earthing rod connected to the generator. (There is an earth point on the control panel). I did make up a copper rod and earth lead. I once mentioned this to a fellow camper and he poo hooed the idea. I guess, if I am reading these comments correctly, it would not only be a good idea, but of great importance. Thanks for the posts.

Do NOT attempt to install an earth when using a generator is the official advise in Australia.

Yes, an RVD will offer additional protection. A search on this forum will reveal a recent discussion.

Cheers,

Peter

Phil C · Guru

Hi all,

Couldnt resist my 5 pennies worth.

This has been done to death in this forum and the answer is the same IMHO, IF and RCD is not functional its not worth the risk running a generator, HOWEVER if its 40 degrees outside the aircon makes that risk a little easier to take.

Personally I would never hook up my inverter to the caravan supply, in my mind (as an electrician and teacher) that is flirting with deadly danger. However one must do what one feels one must do (did I overdo the word one?) disbelief

All jokes aside, its probably not such a good idea to use the inverter as a supply. We only use ours on a very cold night to run our electric blacket INSIDE the caravan and we have solar to recharge the house batts.

PeterQ and PeterD will be pleased to hear that even after 2 years on the road I have NEVER used my generator on the van, my solar arrays do the job with ease. I believe both these gentlemen would prefer a no generator world, I am seriously considering putting mine on ebay.

Take care and please dont muck around with ANY electricity. aww aww

KFT · Guru

G'day Phil

mate just fit an RVD to the genny and you will be fine

while you are at it replace the RCD in the van with an RVD as well then all good for any supply method.

JayDee · Guru

I am a Dummy when it comes to this stuff. Let's see
First up we have roof solar panels to power battery.
WE have all lights, a fan on 12 volt as well as our TV and radio.
Fridge 3 way. Gas heater for hot water.
Diesel Heater plus it is also connected to battery.( Of course)
Just installed a pure sine wave 360 watt inverter connect directly to battery for the charging of Computers, phones, dongles, kindle etc.etc.
When bush camping we use gas,for kettle, Fridge, and all cooking etc.
We also use our Generator when we use of Lemar wash. machine and Air/con. and if necessary to charge the van battery.
Have had no problems to date.
I am assuming that we are doing everything right.
Is that correct????????

So what is our A class 1 appliance.
Is it an

electric Jug/ Toaster / Sandwich maker/.large hair dryer etc etc?????
We never use these 240 when camping.

As I said every thing seems to work ok, as per the above.
Houston.... Do I have a problem.
Jay&Dee

oldtrack123 · Guru

JayDee wrote:
I am a Dummy when it comes to this stuff. Let's see
First up we have roof solar panels to power battery.
WE have all lights, a fan on 12 volt as well as our TV and radio.
Fridge 3 way. Gas heater for hot water.
Diesel Heater plus it is also connected to battery.( Of course)
Just installed a pure sine wave 360 watt inverter connect directly to battery for the charging of Computers, phones, dongles, kindle etc.etc.
When bush camping we use gas,for kettle, Fridge, and all cooking etc.
We also use our Generator when we use of Lemar wash. machine and Air/con. and if necessary to charge the van battery.
Have had no problems to date.
I am assuming that we are doing everything right.
Is that correct????????

So what is our A class 1 appliance.
Is it an

electric Jug/ Toaster / Sandwich maker/.large hair dryer etc etc?????
We never use these 240 when camping.

As I said every thing seems to work ok, as per the above.
Houston.... Do I have a problem.
Jay&Dee

Hi Jay

Anything that is factory fitted with a 3pin plug is very very likely to be class1

So number 1 is the van, connected by a 3pin plug

Then of those you mentioned I would expect that the Jug ,Toaster,Sandwich maker, washing machine , air con , are all fitted with a factory 3pin plug

The hair dryer may or may not depends on how it is made

But you will almost certainly have others that you have not mentioned, Fridge, battery charger being another two ] So I wouldsay at least 9 class1

A little more than just ONE

Yes everything will run OK that is not the problem

The problem is when a fault develops that makes the whole system potentialy unsafe

THEN, just as dangerous as your home 240V, if you do not have a RCD on your home supply

Those supplies were proven unsafe ,which is why RCDs are now mandatory throught Aus on mains supplies

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 31st of March 2015 04:33:36 PM

oldtrack123 · Guru

Brownie2 wrote:
Hi all, I seem to remember that when I bought our Honda generator the instructions stated that if you intend to plug in any equipment that is not double insulated that you must use an earthing rod connected to the generator. (There is an earth point on the control panel). I did make up a copper rod and earth lead. I once mentioned this to a fellow camper and he poo hooed the idea. I guess, if I am reading these comments correctly, it would not only be a good idea, but of great importance. Thanks for the posts.

Hi

Makers instructions are often not written for Aus

The Aus requirement is

[1]Do not use an earth stake

[2]Do not deliberately 'Earth " the generator by any means to the general mass of earth, by water pipes steel building frames etc

[3] "AN EARTH STAKES IS NEITHER REQUIRED OR RECOMMENDED"

The abovet ALSO applies to the VAn motor, home etc, no other means of earthing required, except by means of the extension lead internal earthing conductor

PeterQ

oldtrack123 · Guru

Goldfinger wrote:
Q: How do others connect their Generator to their vans when free camping to run their Air Conditioner, or Microwave at separate times...through the 240V inlet socket?.....appreciate honest responses to what they are doing at present.....Hoo Roo

Hi

No doubt many just plug it into the van inlet socke,t BUT what does that indicate ??

Perhaps they have :

[a] not been made aware of the potential for shocks .

are prepared to take that risk

[c] simply believe they know better

[d]Are not prepared to spend a few hundred dollars on safety measures unless they are forced to[mandatory regulastions]

PeterQ

Phil C · Guru

Hi again

PeterQ, with all due respect, would you please modify your description of a class 1 appliance to read 3 pin connector with an earth wire. I have seen many class 2 with 3 pin connectors. This will quantify a class 1 more accurately.

Cheers

Brownie2 · Senior Member

Thanks Ralph.(oldtrack123). Well, that clears that up. Thank you. Cheers,
Bob

-- Edited by Brownie2 on Tuesday 31st of March 2015 04:59:18 PM

oldtrack123 · Guru

Phil C wrote:
Hi again

PeterQ, with all due respect, would you please modify your description of a class 1 appliance to read 3 pin connector with an earth wire. I have seen many class 2 with 3 pin connectors. This will quantify a class 1 more accurately.

Cheers

Hi Phil

Perhaps you did not see my" FACTORY fitted 3pin plug "

I doubt that any MAKER now fits a 3pin plug to a class2 device

And how does Joe Blow know if the moulded sockets /plugs have an earth cable,unless THEY have a continuity meter & know how to check ??

In any case it will not do any harm if it is a class 2 device.

Best to be on the SAFE side & look on anything with a 3pin plug as class1! IMHO wink

PeterQ

Phil C · Guru

Hi Peter,

I was working as the quality manager in a cable manufacturer who made the power cords for sunbeam. We decided to work with 2 pin plug on all our class 2 appliances. The return rate went through the roof as dear customers thought there was a fault and the plug only had 2 pins. No major dramas, and you are correct Joe and Mary Bloggs wouldn't have a clue about the difference.

Hope you are well, as I am.

JayDee · Guru

Peter Q. & others thank you for info.
Sooooo How and where do I check to see if I have an RCD unit fitted to my van.
Jay&Dee

oldtrack123 · Guru

JayDee wrote:
Peter Q. & others thank you for info.
Sooooo How and where do I check to see if I have an RCD unit fitted to my van.
Jay&Dee

Hi Jay

TheRCD, if fitted, should be on a switchboard along with circuit breakers

It will have a"TEST button . but it will not be functional with a generator or inverter plugged into the van popwer inlet socket

IF you use a generator it would be best to have the RCD changed to a RVD as that will give you protection from shocks to earth/ the van frame, without needing to modify AN Ygenerator or inverter connected to the van by the van power inlet socket,

PeterQ

goldcoaster · Senior Member

Does all this apply to a Cummins Onan built in Generator factory installed . I have a RCDM that's what printed on it or should I get this changed to a RVD .
Cheers
Mick

wasn_me · Guru

JayDee wrote:
Peter Q. & others thank you for info.
Sooooo How and where do I check to see if I have an RCD unit fitted to my van.
Jay&Dee

My van is a 1999 vintage & does not have an RCD. It only has a circuit breaker. I am getting an RCD fitted this week.

It would be interesting to know when fitting RCDs to vans became mandatory.

Attached photo is circuit breaker only.

Cheers Pete

JayDee · Guru

Just checked the van and yes we have an RCD fitted.
Jay&Dee

madaboutled · Guru

I've read through all the posts here and fully agree with what PeterQ, PeterD & Phil C are all have said here but no one has yet to mention safety testing. RCD's are great little devices, Are they working correctly??? Have they been tested??? and if so, When??? Then there's all your leads and appliances both Class 1 and Class 2, do you really know if they are safe??? When was the last time you had any of this tested??? answer for most is probably never. But anything electrical should be tested on a regular basis even if only for piece of mind. Yes its an extra expence, but what price do you put on you and your's safety.

My 5 cents worth is that if you should have everything checked for your own piece of mind, most people that do Test and Tagging for commercial requirements can saftey check all your appliances and RCD's even the RCD's on generators. Also note that eventually it will be a requirement for your caravan leads that plug into caravan park power boxes to have a current test/tag on them. I believe that some council run caravan parks and showgrounds are starting to insist on this and have been told some caravan parks in Victoria are.