Van plumbing...

aussie_paul · Guru

Van plumbing...

Treecrest14 · Senior Member

Hi
Depends on the model, but on my Jayco van it had a tank selector under the van - ie you were only pumping out of 1 tank. When empty, you had to turn the selector over to the other tank. Mine was just a black plastic valve in the water pipe and under the van near the water inlet.
Hope this gives oou enough info to find the valve.
Glen

elliemike · Guru

This is a simple one Tank System Schematic. The Two tank system would be similar. Two tanks would be cross connected with appropriate selector and isolating valves.

The mains supply has an inline check valve that prevents it flowing through the pump into the tanks.

I got this by just doing a quick online search.

I always fill my tanks for storage when the van gets home. Leaving the system filled with water is less likely to create hygiene problems (and pump priming probs) I use some Milton Tablets it the tank when it is stored. Drain and flush the tank and refill twice before heading out on the road.

DuoettoPlumbingDiagram%20(Custom).png

aussie_paul · Guru

Treecrest14 wrote:
Hi
Depends on the model, but on my Jayco van it had a tank selector under the van - ie you were only pumping out of 1 tank. When empty, you had to turn the selector over to the other tank. Mine was just a black plastic valve in the water pipe and under the van near the water inlet.
Hope this gives oou enough info to find the valve.
Glen

Thanks Glen, I also tried the tap from the rear tank and it seemed to be sucking air from the front tank breather.

Mike, thanks for the diagram and info. I take it the one way valve (C) stops water from draining out of the HWS risking ruining the elements etc.

Anyway, I am slowly getting there.

Aussie Paul. smile

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Saturday 24th of January 2015 11:56:01 AM

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Saturday 24th of January 2015 11:56:26 AM

PeterD · Guru

aussie_paul wrote:
More stuff I don't know or as yet understand. We have the two inlets to the two tanks, we have an air vent for each tank to allow the air to escape as the water fills the tank. We have a direct connection for mains water without using the 12 volt pump. This seems to be an automatic system that seems to know when we are connected to mains water. We have a tap that allows us to use either tank separately or both together. We also have a filtered system to a separate tap at the sink for drinking water. Where does that filtered water come from when connected to mains?

Paul, I think the last diagram on this page would be more towards the way that Jayco do their systems. You will note the two non-return valves. One stops the mains water flowing out to the tank system and the other stops the tank pump from emptying the tank/s out the mains pressure connector. There is no automatic logic circuit in the system, it just works on the brute force of the non-return valves.

Your filtered water, does it work from both tank and mains water? If the filter cartridges are under the sink then the filter supply usually just connects to the cold water pipe that supplies the sink. If it does not work from both water supplies then it's any ones guess where it is connected to.

elliemike · Guru

PeterD wrote:
aussie_paul wrote:
More stuff I don't know or as yet understand. We have the two inlets to the two tanks, we have an air vent for each tank to allow the air to escape as the water fills the tank. We have a direct connection for mains water without using the 12 volt pump. This seems to be an automatic system that seems to know when we are connected to mains water. We have a tap that allows us to use either tank separately or both together. We also have a filtered system to a separate tap at the sink for drinking water. Where does that filtered water come from when connected to mains?
Paul, I think the last diagram on this page would be more towards the way that Jayco do their systems. You will note the two non-return valves. One stops the mains water flowing out to the tank system and the other stops the tank pump from emptying the tank/s out the mains pressure connector. There is no automatic logic circuit in the system, it just works on the brute force of the non-return valves.

Yep that's a much better diagram.

The Non Return (check Valve) after the pump is not shown on the schematic I posted. Just the Check for the HWS

Good one.

I often wonder who are some the Grippers who plumb caravans and campers.

I had a look at a problem on an Avan last year done by a "Caravan Repairer" They had put a Valve on the Tank breather. Run it under the floor with the valve on the end "Closed" The solo lady had given up using the onboard water tank as she'd had nothing but problems with it.

No wonder. It would not fill easily. Nor could she pump water out. She was lucky the tank did not Collapse due to Vacuum created when pumping water.

I removed the breather (Caravan Repairer Crap Job) line from the tank and replaced it with the correct size and re routed to the Filler Cap fitting for the breather. Now she uses her on board plumbing.

-- Edited by elliemike on Saturday 24th of January 2015 06:25:44 PM

aussie_paul · Guru

Paul, I think the last diagram on this page would be more towards the way that Jayco do their systems. You will note the two non-return valves. One stops the mains water flowing out to the tank system and the other stops the tank pump from emptying the tank/s out the mains pressure connector. There is no automatic logic circuit in the system, it just works on the brute force of the non-return valves.
Your filtered water, does it work from both tank and mains water? If the filter cartridges are under the sink then the filter supply usually just connects to the cold water pipe that supplies the sink. If it does not work from both water supplies then it's any ones guess where it is connected to.

Great Peter. Ours is very much like that diagram, just a 3 way tap instead of two individual taps for each tank, and breather hoses. Our Jayco has the water outlet from a T at the bottom of the tank and the other side of the T is the larger filler hose. I guess if there is water in the tank it won't suck air from the larger filler pipe. I have put a dab of white paint on the arrow of the 3 way tap.

The drinking water filters are under the sink so I will check re where it comes from.

Aussie Paul. smile

PeterD · Guru

aussie_paul wrote:
Our Jayco has the water outlet from a T at the bottom of the tank and the other side of the T is the larger filler hose. I guess if there is water in the tank it won't suck air from the larger filler pipe.

Paul, that is odd. I would not have the filling and delivery sides of the plumbing connected together (other than through the tank.) The filler pipes should go just to the big connectors on the tank and that change over device connected directly to the tank via the 1/2" barbs at the bottom of the tank.

Does the fillers to the tank enter the tank half way up as most if the later ones I am familiar with do? If so then the tank that that large pipe goes to draws from the centre of the side this would explain the air problem when you still have a considerable amount of water in the tank. Do you feel confident in doing a little re-plumbing?

If there is no 1/2" pipe/hose from that tank you can add one. If there is a barb awaiting on the bottom of the end of the tank you will need to drill through it to produce a water flow. If there is no barb but a depression with a 3/8" BSP thread in it you will need one of these Drill out the remote end of the depression and screw the fitting into it (with a bit of plumbers tape to seal it.)

-- Edited by PeterD on Sunday 25th of January 2015 05:05:57 PM

aussie_paul · Guru

Ok Peter, I will have a look, thanks. Poor design REALLY gives me the irrates. It is just as easy to do it correct as wrong.

Aussie Paul. smile

aussie_paul · Guru

Paul, that is odd.. I would not have the filling and delivery sides of the plumbing connected together (other than through the tank.) The filler pipes should go just to the big connectors on the tank and that change over device connected directly to the tank via the 1/2" barbs at the bottom of the tank.
Does the fillers to the tank enter the tank half way up as most if the later ones I am familiar with do? If so then the tank that that large pipe goes to draws from the centre of the side this would explain the air problem when you still have a considerable amount of water in the tank. Do you feel confident in doing a little re-plumbing?
If there is no 1/2" pipe/hose from that tank you can add one. If there is a barb awaiting on the bottom of the end of the tank you will need to drill through it to produce a water flow. If there is no barb but a depression with a 3/8" BSP thread in it you will need one of these Drill out the remote end of the depression and screw the fitting into it (with a bit of plumbers tape to seal it.)

-- Edited by PeterD on Sunday 25th of January 2015 05:05:57 PM

No spare 1/2" barbs or depressions Peter. Only the large connection at the bottom and a 1/2" one at the top to let the air out. Yes I am up to rejigging the plumbing, just should not have to do it. I will have a think now as to the best way to go about adding a barbed fitting to the bottom of the tanks for the pump to suck from. They are probably not thick enough to seal your 3/8" BSP to 1/2" Barb fitting?

Oops, filler hose and inlet pipe are one and the same!!!

Aussie Paul. smile

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Monday 26th of January 2015 05:58:18 PM

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Monday 26th of January 2015 05:59:02 PM

aussie_paul · Guru

I am beginning to think about using one of these tanks as a grey water tank. I could then get fitted a new potable water tank with suitable outlet design. Or do we get a portable 25/40 liter with wheels?

I don't really comprehend, as yet, the grey water/fully contained situation, rules etc re freedom camping.

Aussie Paul. smile

Cruising Cruze · Guru

All depends where you going to camp Paul
If you stay in caravan parks you dont need a grey water tank,only an grey water hose
Also not when camping in the bush
you only need them at some places
I would just have an old 20ltr drum or jerry can for that

Cheers John

-- Edited by Cruising Cruze on Monday 26th of January 2015 11:53:00 PM

PeterD · Guru

aussie_paul wrote:
I don't really comprehend, as yet, the grey water/fully contained situation, rules etc re freedom camping.

Paul, probably the best info on the self contained requirements for your van is - http://www.cmca.net.au/services/leave-no-trace - There are three links at the bottom of the page that explain things further. As yet there are not too many places that require self-containment but more are creeping in every week.

PeterD · Guru

Paul, after seeing your pictures I went on to the CaravansPlus site and found this - http://caravansplus.com.au/images_tiff/2014/800-01574al.jpg - It looks like you have no option to re-plumb the tanks as I previously suggested.

KevinC · Senior Member

G'day Paul,

I ordered my Jayco with three 82l tanks just in case I need to have more water. I've re-plumbed them to be independent of each other. I've now fitted a fourth 82l for grey water. It fills and empties via the bottom fitting, same as the water tanks. Surprising how often we use it. Like when we stop for a cuppa, even in the middle of town, nothing drops onto the ground. Then when we stop for the night and set up the hose, the tank empties. Previously I used a bucket but always had to find somewhere to empty it.
Yes, I know it's a luxury, but we can live with that.
If you decide to go with a grey water tank, you might consider fitting Hepvo valves to your kitchen sink and bathroom outlets to prevent any reflux. About $50 each, not a big deal. Stops anything gurgling back into the shower, or smells coming back into the sink or basin.

Kevin

aussie_paul · Guru

KevinC wrote:
G'day Paul,

I ordered my Jayco with three 82l tanks just in case I need to have more water. I've re-plumbed them to be independent of each other. I've now fitted a fourth 82l for grey water. It fills and empties via the bottom fitting, same as the water tanks. Surprising how often we use it. Like when we stop for a cuppa, even in the middle of town, nothing drops onto the ground. Then when we stop for the night and set up the hose, the tank empties. Previously I used a bucket but always had to find somewhere to empty it.
Yes, I know it's a luxury, but we can live with that.
If you decide to go with a grey water tank, you might consider fitting Hepvo valves to your kitchen sink and bathroom outlets to prevent any reflux. About $50 each, not a big deal. Stops anything gurgling back into the shower, or smells coming back into the sink or basin.

Kevin

Good idea when you are getting the van built Kevin, and ok on the Hepvo valves, thanks.

Aussie Paul. smile

aussie_paul · Guru

aussie_paul wrote:
Paul, I think the last diagram on this page would be more towards the way that Jayco do their systems. You will note the two non-return valves. One stops the mains water flowing out to the tank system and the other stops the tank pump from emptying the tank/s out the mains pressure connector. There is no automatic logic circuit in the system, it just works on the brute force of the non-return valves.
Your filtered water, does it work from both tank and mains water? If the filter cartridges are under the sink then the filter supply usually just connects to the cold water pipe that supplies the sink. If it does not work from both water supplies then it's any ones guess where it is connected to.
Great Peter. Ours is very much like that diagram, just a 3 way tap instead of two individual taps for each tank, and breather hoses. Our Jayco has the water outlet from a T at the bottom of the tank and the other side of the T is the larger filler hose. I guess if there is water in the tank it won't suck air from the larger filler pipe. I have put a dab of white paint on the arrow of the 3 way tap.
The drinking water filters are under the sink so I will check re where it comes from.
Aussie Paul.

So Peter, should there be 2 non return valves in our system? So replumbing, a tap at each of the tank outlets going to the pump via a Y. That way would give me either tank, or both?

Aussie Paul. smile

robo24 · Senior Member

I have had weeks of this problem,but after advise from a member (no not that one ),i changed the breather tubes to 19mm up from 12mm and that fixed the issue.

PeterD · Guru

aussie_paul wrote:
So Peter, should there be 2 non return valves in our system? So replumbing, a tap at each of the tank outlets going to the pump via a Y. That way would give me either tank, or both?
Aussie Paul.

I would expect to see two non-return valves in the system. They may not be obvious, something like they are combined in another fitting.

As for the separate taps for each tank, That one combined valve should give you the option of one tank, the other one, both or off. Apparently there is a broad arrow on the front that is a little hard to determine where it is pointing. In a previous thread someone had given a photo showing how he painted the arrow so it was easily seen (it points across the obvious direction.) I think the way it works is if it points to one of the tanks the pump draws from that tank. If it points down the delivery line the pump draws from both tanks.

aussie_paul · Guru

robo24 wrote:
I have had weeks of this problem,but after advise from a member (no not that one ),i changed the breather tubes to 19mm up from 12mm and that fixed the issue.

Thanks robo24. Did you enlarge the tank air outlet or just used the 19mm hose to the 12mm barbs?

Aussie Paul. smile

aussie_paul · Guru

PeterD wrote:
I would expect to see two non-return valves in the system. They may not be obvious, something like they are combined in another fitting.
As for the separate taps for each tank, That one combined valve should give you the option of one tank, the other one, both or off. Apparently there is a broad arrow on the front that is a little hard to determine where it is pointing. In a previous thread someone had given a photo showing how he painted the arrow so it was easily seen (it points across the obvious direction.) I think the way it works is if it points to one of the tanks the pump draws from that tank. If it points down the delivery line the pump draws from both tanks.
Hi Peter, I have been crawling under the van today to actually see what is there.
I took some pics, but tomorrow I will draw my own plumbing diagram.
Pic 1. This 3 way tap does what you say, either or both tanks can be selected, BUT draws from the same part of the tank the filler goes in. Are you suggesting that I put that 3 way tap down out the tank outlet?
Pic 1. a the bottom of the tank again.
Pic, 2 This pic shows what I think is a one way valve/pressure reducer or possibly both. It is in the high pressure line from external water supply.ie. park water tap.
Pics3 & 4 shows a gadget in the hot water line not far from the HWS.
Pic 5 shows the entrance to the van of the water filler and breather hoses, and the mains supply.
Aussie Paul.

aussie_paul · Guru

Ok. after some laying around under the van I have a hand drawn cold water plumbing diagram. Does it make sense??

Aussie Paul. smile

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Thursday 29th of January 2015 06:35:23 PM

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Thursday 29th of January 2015 06:39:13 PM

aussie_paul · Guru

Hi all, I need to know what these two items are in pics 4 & 6. I reckon pic 4 is a non return valve AND possibly pressure reduction. That allows HP water to feed everything. The HP pressure is above what the 12 volt pump cuts in at so pump does not operate, and the pump will have a non return valve inside the pump.. When no HP water connected the non return valve stops water escaping out the HP inlet. Made it easier once I drew it out. biggrin

Aussie Paul. smile

PeterD · Guru

Paul, in the diagram you posted yesterday what you have labelled Pic 4 is a tempering valve. Hot water + cold water in = warm water out. Pic 2 would be the non return valve, whether it is also a pressure limiter or not I know not. Pic 6 in the previous message just looks like the rear of your water inlets plus a cupboard waster.

aussie_paul · Guru

Hi Peter, thanks. Is that tempering valve used instead of thermostat in the HWS?

Now that I can see how everything works I think I might use the van again and see how it all turns out armed with the knowledge I now have.

After seeing my diagram what would you suggest?

Aussie Paul. smile

PeterD · Guru

There is a thermostat in the HWS. Otherwise it would overheat. All storage HWS are supposed to be kept at over 60 deg to suppress bugs like Legionaries disease. If you live in a house over 15 years old you should also have a tempering valve on your storage HWS. Water to bathrooms should not be delivered at over 40 deg or so. Laundries and kitchens can have straight HWS temperatures.

The only thing I can suggest is you can re-plumb the kitchen sink directly from the HWS if you so desire and I myself would not be happy with the pump being the non-return valve in the tank system (personal choice.)

aussie_paul · Guru

PeterD wrote:
There is a thermostat in the HWS. Otherwise it would overheat. All storage HWS are supposed to be kept at over 60 deg to suppress bugs like Legionaries disease. If you live in a house over 15 years old you should also have a tempering valve on your storage HWS. Water to bathrooms should not be delivered at over 40 deg or so. Laundries and kitchens can have straight HWS temperatures.

The only thing I can suggest is you can re-plumb the kitchen sink directly from the HWS if you so desire and I myself would not be happy with the pump being the non-return valve in the tank system (personal choice.)

Ah ha Peter, all falling into place now. Many thanks. I appreciate it has been a time consuming thread to help me.

Ok re pump as the non return valve, an easy job that I can do, and I will check if Eril is happy with the sink hot water the way it is. Do most vans have mains pressure reducers?

I should have done the diagram earlier but would have gotten wet laying under the van!!!!

I now know what to do if I drain the tanks. After I refill the tanks I need to attach HP hose to van and bleed the air out.

Regards, Aussie Paul. smile

KevinC · Senior Member

G'day Paul,

I hope this project of yours isn't growing to be more than it deserves.

I think you probably had the answer to you first problem days ago. That is, the mains system has damn all to do with the water tank system, and try not to let your tanks become completely dry. Mains pressure won't help you bleed your water pump, only time and an open tap will work. Your statement "I now know what to do if I drain the tanks. After I refill the tanks I need to attach HP hose to van and bleed the air out" isn't correct.

I, like you was dissatisfied with the Sterling plumbing as delivered. But it was only the inlet side that needed to be modified. Separating the tanks has given me total control, but if I run a tank down then I have to wait for the pump to draw water from another tank before I have flow again.
I'm not trying to be negative, exactly the opposite, but I can't see what you're needing to improve or trying to for that matter.

aussie_paul · Guru

KevinC wrote:
G'day Paul,

I hope this project of yours isn't growing to be more than it deserves.

I think you probably had the answer to you first problem days ago. That is, the mains system has damn all to do with the water tank system, and try not to let your tanks become completely dry. Mains pressure won't help you bleed your water pump, only time and an open tap will work. Your statement "I now know what to do if I drain the tanks. After I refill the tanks I need to attach HP hose to van and bleed the air out" isn't correct.

I, like you was dissatisfied with the Sterling plumbing as delivered. But it was only the inlet side that needed to be modified. Separating the tanks has given me total control, but if I run a tank down then I have to wait for the pump to draw water from another tank before I have flow again.
I'm not trying to be negative, exactly the opposite, but I can't see what you're needing to improve or trying to for that matter.

Hi Kevin, the only reason was the sucking of air problem after emptying the tanks. Yes, you are correct, main will not prime the pump, only empty the air from the system AFTER the pump. I see that now. I am still not happy that the tank inlets are at the same point as the pump suction, or the small size of the air escape hoses.

The way it is at the moment works now that I understand how each part of the system works. I have gained that knowledge from all you guys. Thanks.

So, do many people have trouble with their 12volt pump sucking the air from the suction pipe, or is it time and an open tap?

Aussie Paul. smile

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Friday 30th of January 2015 05:02:54 PM

KevinC · Senior Member

G'day again Paul,

Now you've reminded me of something. The breather pipes on Sterlings are contorted to say the least. Mine came from the tops of the tanks (normal) and looped down under the chassis and up to the filler box (the white lockable box that contains the fillers and mains inlet) Obviously the breather pipes will get water lying in them and cause negative pressure in the tanks when the pump is working. Not heaps but enough to fight the pump making it harder to draw water. I disconnected mine from the filler box, and using some garden irrigation pipe from the Big Green Shed, ran the breathers back to the rear of the van avoiding any dips that could hold water. At the back I ran them up a short distance behind a box I have sitting on the rear bumper. A minute hole in the breather at floor level prevents any water pooling there, but it isn't enough to allow too much water to spill as I'm driving. Other end plugs will work just as well.
Now the breathers are unobstructed, and the flow from the tanks is easy.

Paul, I apologize for not mentioning this earlier, and use my advancing years and mental ineptitude as my excuse. I'm happy to continue discussion on this topic, because it seems this is a design fault that thankfully, in my case at least, has been solved.

Regards
Kevin