Plendo wrote:

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 The basis of this article is like saying speed is a factor in many accidents, thus we should have 60k speed limits everywhere (also supportable by facts).

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 I don't see that written into the article or even inferred. What I see he is saying is that you should not drive at speeds above the critical speed of the van. Those with low critical speeds will be those who have vans with light ball weights and their vans are not constructed with the design principles of the European vans. Those who have second spare wheels or boxes on the rear ends are really pushing the limits.

When it comes to travelling at high speeds remember, speed limits are limits not to be exceeded and not challenges.

Gday...

As always, a well researched and written article by Collyn Rivers.

I have had the pleasure of discussing (perhaps debating?) the content of this article over the past 18 or so months with Collyn. The article as presented makes sense.

However, he mentions the BMW X3. I am fairly sure that there other current European vehicles that have "trailer stability assist" these days.

An example is the Range Rover and Discovery 4 vehicles since 2010. This gives an indication of their capabilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gyc4Dmgbew

Cheers - John

Baz421 wrote:

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I respect Collin's view but the article is full of "if's and buts" ie too many generalisations for my liking.

He says in opening,   X% of vehicle rollovers are caused by loss of control - well how else would you roll it,,, deliberately.

 

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I rolled a trailer in the Kimberley in 1999.

The trailer wheel (with boat aboard) hit a 300mm diameter rock at 100kph and the trailer flipped in mid air and landed up side down on the road.

I did not loose control and the motorhome stayed upright. 

The MH weighed about 3 times the weight of the trailer.

I suggest that in most caravan rollovers, the caravan is "in charge" when things go pear shaped. The driver has no control.

I have pics if you need proof.......

 

Cheers,

Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 7th of November 2014 05:12:16 PM

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 7th of November 2014 05:14:53 PM

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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I rolled a trailer in the Kimberley in 1999.

The trailer wheel (with boat aboard) hit a 300mm diameter rock at 100kph and the trailer flipped in mid air and landed up side down on the road.

I did not loose control and the motorhome stayed upright. 

The MH weighed about 3 times the weight of the trailer.

I suggest that in most caravan rollovers, the caravan is "in charge" when things go pear shaped. The driver has no control.

I have pics if you need proof.......

Cheers,

Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 7th of November 2014 05:12:16 PM

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 7th of November 2014 05:14:53 PM

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 Crikey, 100 kph in a motor home towing a trailer on a dirt road!

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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Santa wrote:

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 Crikey, 100 kph in a motor home towing a trailer on a dirt road!

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 Yep, pretty stupid and I paid the price.

 

But the point of the post was that the trailer did not overwhelm the tug and no one was hurt as a result.

If it had been a 3 ton caravan, things might have turned out very differently, even at much lower speed.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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I wouldn't say stupid Peter, an error of judgment, we all do it from time to time.

All round bad luck mate.

 

Good on you for posting and admitting you made a fopar..
Yep live and learn.. I grew up on dairy farm learning the possibilities of danger
At a young age.. I found it weird when I came to live in outer suburbs of Sydney..
How many 20 year olds hadn't towed anything let alone a caravan or horse float, manual trans etc..
Btw our farm had quite big hills on and we leant VERY quick how to transfers down hill..
No ABS or stability control behind a Fordson Dexta or David Brown!! Lol

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Monday 10th of November 2014 01:31:59 PM

MANY people tow with crazy ball weights and set ups, and it makes an enormous difference in how the whole rig feels, and handles. And as Collyn points out the safe speed of a rig changes dramatically with the setup.

As far as I know there are no rules that say this is what will work best for a specific rig. Yes there are guidelines, but then the dynamics of the specific tug and van come into play.

In my case the van was ball light initially, and while the tow vehicle was level the actual tow ball ran too low, thus dramatically increasing the wind sensitivity, and general nervousness of the rig. We increased the weight on the ball up to about 340kg, that helped a lot.

We then leveled the van by raising the tow ball, what a difference that made.

We have now started to pull the ball weight back down, aiming to get it around the 290 to 300 mark, but only trial and error will tell us what is right. 

To me, nothing beats the feel of the rig as a tuning tool.

Some of the set ups you see on the road, are just crazy. Rigs with high ball weights, the WDH tightened up to the limit, and the tail of tug is still just about dragging on the ground. Or the people you see driving at the speed limit, ignoring van movement, and relying on the ESC on the van. Disiasters waiting to happen. 

As a relatively new caravaner one of my biggest fears is instability and roll over. To this I have made a few basic additions and safety rules.

1. We has Al-Ko ESC fitted when our van was built
2. I NEVER travel more than 90KMs per hour with the van behind. Most times I cruise at 80
3. Tow ball weight and ATM checked before each trip as van loading changes
4. I load the caravan as close to optimum as I can.
5. ALL heavy items are in the ute tray. Firstly to increase the weight of the ute and secondly to lighten the van, our ute will take 750KGs payload before we hit the 6000KG combined maximum weight, this works well for that critical ratio too, I believe.

Once, in a high wind situation, the tail started to wag the dog slightly. I felt the ESC kick in and bring the van back to stability, I reduced the speed by 10KM/h

This brings me to the conclusion that safety is never too expensive and its up to muggins behind the wheel how much the envelope gets pushed.

Despite burning out my brakes by leaving the vans handbrake on for 50KMs I still maintain a good checklist and full knowledge of the weight inside the van make safe traveling. Mind you Im still kicking myself over the handbrake issue. Thank goodness for CIL.

In my very brief time on the road I have seen some really dumb caravaners, eg. Doing 110KMs/h with the van on ( obviously checking out the ESC). and overtaking trucks and other caravaners. I make it a point not to drive with the van on the same as I would without it.

I am open to constructive criticism here as Im sure I can do this better. The last thing I want to see is my home on its side out in the sticks.

Safe travels

Hi Radar

From what I can understand the 750KGs is over and above the people, fuel etc.

The book tells me I can load the ute and caravan combo to an absolute max of 6 tonnes, the empty or curb weight of the ute is 1800KGs add us, fuel etc we get 2100KGs (estimate) caravan ATM is 2500 = 4600 combined tray will take max of 1000KGs, 5600 combined. I have given myself a large margin of error by stating 750KGs in the tray this then makes the ute weight 2850KGs added to the van 2500KGs is 5350KGs well short of the 6 tonnes. ALSO the ute is now heavier than the van. The way we pack is 50KGs in the roof rack box, 750KGs in the tray and about 50KGs where the back seats go.

I bought the HR medium duty WDH and it works a treat keeps everything on the level.

Ref speed, we found the 80K and 90K suits us fine for the very same reason, at 110K I started to feel some instability in the van, so I backed it off, the slower speed is also much better for economy when dragging the parachute (caravan) around the place.

So far, touch wood, this has worked well for us. As I said the more I can put in the ute the better, may save a lot of embarrassment later it seems the ute can take a lot more so its still experimental.

Cheers and safe travels

The trailer flipped my car in this instance and nothing I could do about it...flat trailer tyre, strong winds, travelling at 80kmh.. the marks on the road show how hard I tried to keep a straight line..accelerated gently..no violent braking....we toppled over as if in slow motion...I'm still hanging upside in it when the photo was taken......first accident towing in 49 years driving,.I now tow with the greatest respect for the trailer or caravan being towed.....imagine if I had not been in a later model Disco2....Hoo Roo

the second video of the series actually give what I feel is a good explanation of how most roll over happen.. It the Trailer losing it that force the Vehicle to roll.. by the time the trailer has gone the driver has not control.. so it is going to happen...

No matter what technology is used if the trailer want to go it will go...


Have a Watch of 2 and 3....

Juergen...

Psst also remember the 1, 2, 3 rule.. Left right Over.... or right left over it does not matter..

Radar wrote:

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Hi Phil

I have rechecked the Navara owners manual, 

Gross vehicle mass 2805

Tare 2029

Cargo 776 I possibly have close to 700 including the tow ball weight.

Max tow 3000 kgs.

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 Ralph, not all D40s are created equal, at least in their weights. My model is the twin cab RX auto. The GVM is 2860 kg, tare is 2001 kg which gives a disposable loading of 859 kg.

From this I need to subtract many non optional weights. Canopies are around 100 kg, the protection step, nudge bar and HR hitch would account for another 100 kg. Personnel account for 160 kg, the ball weight is around 250 kg. Fuel, 80 litres less the statutory 10 litres included in the tare weight X 0.832 gives a fuel weight of around 58 kg That accounts for 668 kg out of my 859 kg allowance. That leaves me with around 190 kg for the tool box, recovery gear furniture, food and booze.

I suspect that Phil would be in the same boat, if he does not have a canopy then he will have 300 kg loading available to him.

However the situation gets worse if you don't use WDH. Without WDH the loading on the rear axle is very much higher. Hitching the van pushes the rear of the van down and there is a corresponding rise in the front end. The rise in the front end is the result of weight being removed from the front suspension. The weight removed from the front axle is now carried by the rear axle together with the ball weight. If you don't make allowance for this then you will probably be overloading the rear axle. Nissan do not recommend that WDH be used with their tow bar. As a result they produce a table of reduced GVMs for different ball loadings.

The above table is applicable to my model. If I don't have a WDH then I must reduce the loading by 130 kg due to the loading of the 250 kg ball weight. I consider that I have the choice of using WDH or leaving the navigator and her gear behind (guess which wins.)

If you don't adhere to these loadings then you are liable to run into instability areas and as a consequence have a higher chance of loosing the rig.

The owners of other vehicles need not smile and sling off at Nissans. If they don't use WDH then they are duty bound to do the same type of de-rating.

Radar wrote:

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I was hoping to add a long range fuel tank but at the moment thats not a good idea.

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 Ralph, I forgot about that. I have 65 litres above the spare tyre. One saving grace is that when you use WDH you throw a bit of the ball weight back onto the vans wheels so there is less imposed on the tug (don't forget that when loading the van.) When you take your rig for its weigh-in run the tug onto the bridge with the WDH in place, then tow the van on to get the total weight. Perhaps you could roll every axle on at a time and get the weight of it.