Who needs an Amphibian?

Phil C · Guru

Who needs an Amphibian?

spida · Guru

mmmm - says not for use in rain or exposed to the weather???? My amphibian was only $150 - they must have gone up in price. Still - anything is better than filing off an earth plug - would rather pay to be safe and legal.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

spida wrote:
mmmm - says not for use in rain or exposed to the weather???? My amphibian was only $150 - they must have gone up in price. Still - anything is better than filing off an earth plug - would rather pay to be safe and legal.

Or the other side of the plug ?

ken thomas · Guru

just stick it under the van
Ken

aussie_paul · Guru

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Powertech-portable-RCD-power-adaptor-15A-to-10A-caravan-/131273319818?pt=Caravan_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e907fe58a

Aussie Paul. smile

oldtrack123 · Guru

HI Phil
That has been around for some time
It does not comply with the Standards for use in CPs, Public places,Show grounds etc
They originally advertised them as being suitable for supplying your van etc where ever only a 10A outlet was available [quoting such places as a motel]
After a tip off to NSW fair trading they had to remove that from their advert. & insert" only suitble for indoor use"

IT does not suit the situations that the Ampfibian covers!!

It does not comply to AS3001, anymore than ALL the other portable RCD boxes! [None of which do ]I

Its Approval is the same as theirs

AS far as I am aware ,the Ampfibian is STILL the only unit that fully complies to the Standard AS3001 'Tramsportable Structures & their power supplies

The subject has been discussed at length on this & other forums when it first went onto the market

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 27th of September 2014 04:57:23 PM

oldtrack123 · Guru

aussie_paul wrote:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Powertech-portable-RCD-power-adaptor-15A-to-10A-caravan-/131273319818?pt=Caravan_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e907fe58a
Aussie Paul.

HI Paul

THat is the SAME unit as in Phil's post

Repco ,Powertech, Jaycar, are ALL the same units

They do not meet the requirements OF the Standards"'Transportable Structures & their power supplies" that cover Vans tents Mhs etc in public places such as Cps, Showground,s etc ,in several ways!

PeterQ

aussie_paul · Guru

Ok Peter...

Aussie Paul. smile

PeterD · Guru

Phil C wrote:
BTW it even has a compliance certificate.

Phil, what are the uses that that approval covers?

KFT · Guru

If you have a read of section 4 of aus standard 3001 you will see that "outlet boxes" complying with AS3100 are approved for use.

The conditions include being used "out of the weather"

accompanying diagrams in the standard show the locations that are acceptable and include tents and Non rigid annexes attached to caravans.

frank

Phil C · Guru

Having re-read the certificate I agree it has no IP rating and has only been approved as an RCD

This just gets messier, they would have to provide a tube of silastic for me to get one.

Then again, if this is hooking up a caravan at home to a 10A GPO I would hesitate to guess that would be inside, under cover.

Looks like this sucker will be at me for some more time.
Safe travels

KFT · Guru

Hi Phil

I think if that device is used as per the instructions it does not need an IP rating. It is meant to be used under an annexe or inside a tent.

I can email you an excerpt from the standard if you like. just pm me.

frank

Phil C · Guru

Cheers Frank, thanks for the offer but I have AS3001.

This issue will not go away, Ive never been in favor of ripping people off in the name of safety, when you think about it the amphibian isnt that special just a RCBO or RCD plus CB in a fancy well sealed box. I would pay $100 for one if I needed it, but I will stick to the generator and solar panel and we live 24/7 in our van.

Hope you are well.

KFT · Guru

No worries Phil, I am well thanks for asking

Agree the amphibian is way overpriced for a weatherproof device. It is not difficult to achieve the same function & rating using off the shelf parts. I have seen a few made by others in the trade.
I have also read where others have made the statement "that is not approved" which I do not agree with. If the device is made from approved parts with the appropriate ratings and is tested and proven what is the issue?

you have a great day mate.

frank

Middo · Veteran Member

You will find that the device will be rated at IP 33. Suitable for indoor use only.
Pete

oldtrack123 · Guru

KFT wrote:
No worries Phil, I am well thanks for asking

Agree the amphibian is way overpriced for a weatherproof device. It is not difficult to achieve the same function & rating using off the shelf parts. I have seen a few made by others in the trade.
I have also read where others have made the statement "that is not approved" which I do not agree with. If the device is made from approved parts with the appropriate ratings and is tested and proven what is the issue?

you have a great day mate.

frank

HI Frank

It is 'Approved"for use indoors. just the same as a most of the other portable outlet boxes on the market .

The actual USE /inviroment is not part of the standard

AS3100 is an overall standarde for RCD protected power boards

AS 3001 "outet boxes" has a number of conditions some being;

It shall be:

IPx4rated

It should be first in line, @ the Power supply.

A standard 15A extensoin lead can then be used to connect to the van

.No joining of leads

Just the 'Amfibian adapter & one extension lead.

THere is also a requirement[IN AS3001] that all the plug connections have some means of restraint against pull out the plug connections that applies at the power pole, the plug @ socket of the power box & at the van

A restraint such as a hanging hook such as the Ampfib has meets that req @ the power pole

If you look at theAmpfibs 15A socket to 15A plug connection you will see that pull out is almost impossible

Then look at the units overall weathere proofing ,youu will then see why Ampfib can truely claim,

THEY meet ALL the requrements of AS3001 for" Transportable Structures & their power supplies"

ps, even having just ONE outlet is part of the r quirement

PeterQ

Phil C · Guru

Yipes!!!!

KFT · Guru

Thanks Peter

may I suggest you have a look at the diagrams in Section 4 of the standard as to how it is permissible to use an outlet box in a CP

I was quite surprised at what is there and what is allowed.

yes it must be IPx4, does not need to be first in line. The cable restraint does not seem to be a requirement for an outlet box nor is there a requirement for only one outlet.

It all seems to be in section 4 and one would think the Jaycar item meets the requirements as pictured in the standard.

frank

oldtrack123 · Guru

KFT wrote:
Thanks Peter

may I suggest you have a look at the diagrams in Section 4 of the standard as to how it is permissible to use an outlet box in a CP

I was quite surprised at what is there and what is allowed.

yes it must be IPx4, does not need to be first in line. The cable restraint does not seem to be a requirement for an outlet box nor is there a requirement for only one outlet.

It all seems to be in section 4 and one would think the Jaycar item meets the requirements as pictured in the standard.

frank

HI Frank

Have a read of AS3001 :

Cl. 2.3.7 IP rating

cl 2.3.9 Strain releif

Cl 2.6 which only applies to low consuption sites [Tents]

3.2.2ii. IP rating

3.2.2.2iii Cable strain relief[

[even the van inlet socket now requires some means of preventing the plug from accidently pulling out, cable strain releif on the plug & socket connection

4.3.1

4.3.2

4.3.3

4.3.4 only one connection at the power pole [rules out any multi outlet box at that point

PeterQ

5.1.1

appendix B [a] [c]

note ;the Ampfibian is for use with a 15A extension lead And is limited by the standards to only have a short supply lead

original it a long lead, but that was changed to comply

Since the Standarsd say the supply lead SHALL be in one length, that rules out having an extension lead feeding the Ampfib[ or any other such type units] with another extension lead on the 15A outlet.

sectionn 4 is referring to outlet box in tents & annnexes

Not the 10 to 15A lead adapter to a van.

It must only have one outlet to comply with the requirement that only one supply can be taken from each power pole, Other wise any of the multi outlet out box units would be acceptable.

That is one of the reasons that the likes of the cllpsal orange multi power box are not approved for such " Transportsable Structure" use

When the Jaycar unit first came on to the market I raised the subject with SA VIC & NSW ESOs

That was when the advert had to be changed

They all agreed it did not comply to the requirements of AS 3001 for use in CPs, camping grounds[two or more 'Transportable Structures] etc on those grounds I have indicated.

They did say they could not limit it's use in private homes UNDER COVER, well protected from the elements.

That does not mean wrapped in plastic, under the van, etc, or with a bucket over it

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 28th of September 2014 11:24:27 PM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Have these at home .. 10 amp yes .. Leads etc 15 amp rated..
www.ebay.com.au/itm/HPM-XL-RCD-protected-double-gpo-powerpoint-Safety-switch-type-HPMXLP777EL30WE-/270996054288
In my case it's only to protect the cable to MH..The 20amp air conditioner plug is not RCD protected..

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Sunday 28th of September 2014 11:48:06 PM

Jonathan · Senior Member

Well .. I still use the first Amphibian that was released .. sure .. 'twas somewhat dearer then and bulkier, but still flies without a hiccup .. certainly got my money back long ago .. and with peace-of-mind !

Mike196 · Senior Member

Course IF the Jaycar unit (and I have one) is used with a modicum of common sense then it's perfectly adequate to the purpose. Not water proof?? so don't use it outside!! Mine was purchased for one particular site where a mate's shed we take power from when we visit, only has 10A power points.

Regards,

Bryan · Guru

spida wrote:
mmmm - says not for use in rain or exposed to the weather???? My amphibian was only $150 - they must have gone up in price. Still - anything is better than filing off an earth plug - would rather pay to be safe and legal.

Each to his/her own but I'm with Spida.

oldtrack123 · Guru

Mike196 wrote:
Course IF the Jaycar unit (and I have one) is used with a modicum of common sense then it's perfectly adequate to the purpose. Not water proof?? so don't use it outside!! Mine was purchased for one particular site where a mate's shed we take power from when we visit, only has 10A power points.
Regards,

HI Mike

AND THAT is the whole point, so not much use at CPs, SHowgrounds , camping grounds.That is when /where the STANDARDS APPLY smile ,

Wrapping in plastic, covering over with a bucket, putting it under the van is not acceptable

The unit itself SHALL be IP x4 rated for those situations

If it is indoors, out of the weather it is OK.

d

KFT · Guru

Hi Peter,

I Have had a read of AS3001 : and I would like you to please consider my responses in RED.

Cl. 2.3.7 IP rating Refers to site supply pillar

cl 2.3.9 Strain relief Refers to site supply pillar

Cl 2.6 which only applies to low consuption sites [Tents] Permits multiple structures to be supplied from one socket outlet

3.2.2ii. IP rating Applies to appliance inlet.

3.2.2.2iii Cable strain relief[ Applies to appliance inlet for connection to site supply. Not seen one yet on a caravan/mh

[even the van inlet socket now requires some means of preventing the plug from accidently pulling out, cable strain releif on the plug & socket connection

4.3.1

4.3.2

4.3.3 Means the outlet box/caravan/mh must have only one supply lead connected to site supply pillar.

4.3.4 only one connection at the power pole [rules out any multi outlet box at that point- correct but the 15 amp lead from the pillar can supply caravan/mh/tent via an outlet box See figure 4.1 for permitted methods.

5.1.1 The diagram in fig 4.1 shows the relevant configuration

appendix B [a] [c]

(a)Figure 4.1 shows how this is achieved in accordance with the standard.

(c) figure 4.1 shows an outside socket outlet on a caravan/mh may be used to connect an outlet box to supply multiple structures on one or more sites and also

4.3.2 (a,b,c).

note ;the Ampfibian is for use with a 15A extension lead And is limited by the standards to only have a short supply lead

original it a long lead, but that was changed to comply

Since the Standarsd say the supply lead SHALL be in one length, that rules out having an extension lead feeding the Ampfib[ or any other such type units] with another extension lead on the 15A outlet. I dont think it does because you can use a 15a lead to supply an outlet box which then supplies a caravan/tent/mh on the same site

sectionn 4 is referring to outlet box in tents & annnexes Fig 4.1 shows the correct permitted configurations

Not the 10 to 15A lead adapter to a van.

It must only have one outlet to comply with the requirement that only one supply can be taken from each power pole, Other wise any of the multi outlet out box units would be acceptable. Fig 4.1 shows an outlet box being used to supply multiple structures on the one site so they must be permitted to have more than one outlet. The max demand is controlled by the RCBO in the outlet box.

That is one of the reasons that the likes of the cllpsal orange multi power box are not approved for such " Transportsable Structure" use Reading section 4 and looking at fig 4.1 I dont think you are correct on this.

When the Jaycar unit first came on to the market I raised the subject with SA VIC & NSW ESOs

That was when the advert had to be changed

They all agreed it did not comply to the requirements of AS 3001 for use in CPs, camping grounds[two or more 'Transportable Structures] etc on those grounds I have indicated. Agree they will not replace an amphib for use in the weather but can be used in the way that is indicated in fig 4.1 in CP and camp grounds unless the standard has it wrong.

They did say they could not limit it's use in private homes UNDER COVER, well protected from the elements.

That does not mean wrapped in plastic, under the van, etc, or with a bucket over it Yes I agree but from reading section 4 and looking at fig 4.1 they can be used inside a tent or under an annexe.

Frank

blaze · Guru

don't get into these debates normally but why would you need or want an amphibian in a cp any way as they are all ready 15 amp outlets, seems to me this one would be fine sitting in the carport at home. I have 15 amp outlets at my home base but have also got that funny extension lead.
cheers
blaze
ps
and I am not a sparky and no whish to be because you seem to need to be righteous and arguementive just to get the point across

oldtrack123 · Guru

blaze wrote:
don't get into these debates normally but
[1]why would you need or want an amphibian in a cp any way as they are all ready 15 amp outlets, seems to me this one would be fine sitting in the carport at home. I have 15 amp outlets at my home base but
[]2] have also got that funny extension lead.
cheers
blaze
ps
and I am not a sparky and no whish to be because you seem to need to be righteous and arguementive just to get the point across

HI

[1]Many older van parks do not have 15A outlets

Some even have a mix

Most Show grounds do not have 15A outlets, unless they have had their wiring updated

It has already been stated they are ok for home use "INDOORS"!

[2]I suppose by funny lead you are referring to a non approved illegally made lead with a10A plug & a 15A socket

Not very clever!!!

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 29th of September 2014 05:55:47 PM

PJK · Senior Member

With all this debate about approvals, I would like to put a scenario to the experts for comment -

If I buy all the correct rated components, plus the correct IP rated junction box, and then pay a fully licensed and certified electrician to assemble it, and tag it, why would that not be legal to use??

I would think that the only need for "approval" is for the manufacturer to market the product??

Am I wrong??

Peter
PJK

oldboar · Senior Member

Wasting your time arguing the rules with this bloke KFT. Been there, done that, even asked for his qualifications at which point he went very quiet for quite a while. As most in the trade say, he's an X spurt. I assume you know the rest of the definition.

Darrell

KFT · Guru

G'day Oldboar

yes mate i do.
But, peterQ and I are having a gentlemanly discussion as we have done in the past about other things. This one is in public and anyone is welcome to join in if they can contribute in a gentlemanly way.

frank