WDH

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

WDH

KJB · Guru

BasilB wrote:
tow ball weight is calculated by the difference in tow vehicle axle weights when hitched and unhitched. (level, constant gravity)

an increase in caravan axle weights means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does. (there, i've said it)
because mass doesn't change.

Mass does not change but the increase in Weight is Weight that has been trtansferred from the Tow Vehicle to the Caravan axle via the use of a WDH. The WDH creates the situation where the Tow vehicle chassis and the Caravan chassis begin to operate as one chassis because the completely flexible connection (the Tow Ball) is restricted in its flexibility and the WDH becomes a stressed bottom chord in a single Beam formed by the Tow Vehicle chassis and the Caravan chassis. The springs in the WDH let the connection reamain flexible enough to absorb normal road undulations.

BasilB · Veteran Member

the tow vehicle weighs more, the mass hasn't changed, we've just added tow ball weight.

an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

tow ball weight still exists.

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Spot on BasilB. Yobarrs problem is he just can't abide being proven wrong so he chooses to ignore very simple physics and simple arithmetic.
Alan

That'd be the Pot calling the Kettle Black!

I once thought that I was wrong, but I was mistaken!

Brenda and Alan · Guru

What more can I say.

Try not to tell people that it is just simple physics at least until you understand some.

Alan

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
The DISTRIBUTED weight comes OFF the car's REAR AXLE and is DISTRIBUTED to the car's front axle (about 70%) and the van's axle group. (about 30%) Not negotiable.
Nobody is disputing this part yet that is what you keep repeating ad nauseum as if everyone needs to be convinced.
As everyone is agreed on that part at least, but disagrees with what you say about towball weight let's accept the differences and move on. It is irrelevant to what the effect of a WDH is.

The highlighted words in the first part of your post perhaps show that, at last, we're getting somewhere, but it is important that people understand that a WDH does NOT change towball weight.

In my travels I have discussed WDHs with literally dozens of caravanners who were using them, but NOT ONE has had a clue about their operation or effects.

Many were using a WDH simply to level the car and van, with no regard to increased risk of oversteer and the associated dangers, while others had NO pressure on the springbars.

Although it seems that ignorance is bliss, safety is paramount and always I will help people to get their weights right.

As Kerry has pointed out, a WDH creates what is effectively a rigid bar from the front axle of the car, through the hitchpoint to the van's axle group. Can you even begin to imagine the enormous stresses applied to the chassis of both the car and the van when passing over uneven surfaces, such as entrances to servos?

A WDH is only ever used by people, both owners and manufacturers, in an effort to make a car do things for which it never was designed. Get a bigger car or a smaller van. Simple stuff really.

There is a popular vehicle that is rated to tow 3500kg but has a GCM of only 5850kg. Yes, 5850kg! Towing a 3500kg PIG trailer would make that car an accident looking for a place to happen, but many people have NO idea of weights, and certainly will get no help from commission-based salesmen who are trying to flog them a 3500kg van.

Such people there are playing with the lives of others, and should be hanged. Cheers

P.S The shank has been snapped-off inside the receiver. Was this contributed to by the use of a WDH, which increases TBO as well as applying extra weight to the car's rear axle?

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 22nd of October 2023 09:40:37 PM

Gundog · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
The DISTRIBUTED weight comes OFF the car's REAR AXLE and is DISTRIBUTED to the car's front axle (about 70%) and the van's axle group. (about 30%) Not negotiable.
Nobody is disputing this part yet that is what you keep repeating ad nauseum as if everyone needs to be convinced.
As everyone is agreed on that part at least, but disagrees with what you say about towball weight let's accept the differences and move on. It is irrelevant to what the effect of a WDH is.
The highlighted words in the first part of your post perhaps show that, at last, we're getting somewhere, but it is important that people understand that a WDH does NOT change towball weight.
In my travels I have discussed WDHs with literally dozens of caravanners who were using them, but NOT ONE has had a clue about their operation or effects.
Many were using a WDH simply to level the car and van, with no regard to increased risk of oversteer and the associated dangers, while others had NO pressure on the springbars.
Although it seems that ignorance is bliss, safety is paramount and always I will help people to get their weights right.
As Kerry has pointed out, a WDH creates what is effectively a rigid bar from the front axle of the car, through the hitchpoint to the van's axle group. Can you even begin to imagine the enormous stresses applied to the chassis of both the car and the van when passing over uneven surfaces, such as entrances to servos?
A WDH is only ever used by people, both owners and manufacturers, in an effort to make a car do things for which it never was designed. Get a bigger car or a smaller van. Simple stuff really.
There is a popular vehicle that is rated to tow 3500kg but has a GCM of only 5850kg. Yes, 5850kg! Towing a 3500kg PIG trailer would make that car an accident looking for a place to happen, but many people have NO idea of weights, and certainly will get no help from commission-based salesmen who are trying to flog them a 3500kg van.
Such people there are playing with the lives of others, and should be hanged. Cheers
P.S The shank has been snapped-off inside the receiver. Was this contributed to by the use of a WDH, which increases TBO as well as applying extra weight to the car's rear axle?

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 22nd of October 2023 09:40:37 PM

The picture says to me that the shank of the hitch was too long for the short receiver, and it was the receiver that was sheered off.

Yobarrs words"Many were using a WDH simply to level the car and van, with no regard to increased risk of oversteer and the associated dangers."

Another misguided statement, that in fact is one of the primary uses of a WDH to level up the combination and distributing weight, an even greater risk in not using a WDH is restoration of weight to the front Axle, with out that understeer is a greater danger.

It's like anything in life read the instructions, you need to read and follow the setup and installation instructions for your brand of WDH for it to proform correctly.

Example of how a self confirmed expert engineer on another forum suggested, dont use a WDH but if your rear end drops 2 inches adjust your ball 2 inches higher and then rehitch, or another nugget never return more than 50% of the weight lost from the front axle, this was the advice from one WDH manufacture for 1 of their models he extrapolated that to all WDH's made.

The holy grail of using a WDH is the owners manual, if you dont follow it, the fault lies with you not the equipment.

-- Edited by Gundog on Monday 23rd of October 2023 09:38:28 AM

yobarr · Guru

Gundog wrote:
yobarr
P.S The shank has been snapped-off inside the receiver. Was this contributed to by the use of a WDH, which increases TBO as well as applying extra weight to the car's rear axle?

The picture says to me that the shank of the hitch was too long for the short receiver, and it was the receiver that has sheared off.
Yobarrs words"Many were using a WDH simply to level the car and van, with no regard to increased risk of oversteer and the associated dangers."
Another misguided statement, that in fact is one of the primary uses of a WDH to level up the combination and distributing weight, an even greater risk in not using a WDH is restoration of weight to the front Axle, with out that understeer is a greater danger.
It's like anything in life read the instructions, you need to read and follow the setup and installation instructions for your brand of WDH for it to proform correctly.
Example of how a self confirmed expert engineer on another forum suggested, dont use a WDH but if your rear end drops 2 inches adjust your ball 2 inches higher and then rehitch, or another nugget never return more than 50% of the weight lost from the front axle, this was the advice from one WDH manufacture for 1 of their models he extrapolated that to all WDH's made.
The holy grail of using a WDH is the owners manual, if you dont follow it, the fault lies with you not the equipment.

Hi Graham, You are, of course, correct about the receiver being the part that sheared off. My apologies. The picture was one I grabbed without studying it, simply to illustrate the massive stresses placed on many components when a WDH is used, stresses that many have no clue about.

The old furphy of restoring weight to the cars front axle again surfaces.

As an example let's consider a typical 6000kg GCM twin-cab ute with 350kg on the towball. This results in around 150kg (+/-) being removed from the front axle of the car, and transferred to the car's rear axle.

If a WDH is used to return, say, 70% of that weight to the car's front axle you've moved 105kg. Wow! Big deal. Just carry a fat passenger!

A typical steel bullbar would weigh 80-100kg so the car already is likely to be carrying over 100kg more on its front axle than it was when it left the factory. The 350kg towball weight removes that extra front axle weight, taking the front axle back to factory weight. Unsafe? Nah. Hardly dangerous.

If the car has no bullbar, unlikely in the bush, the removal of 150kg from the front axle is a non-event, akin to not carrying passengers etc. With 350kg towball weight and no WDH my car runs at 1350kg front axle weight. How much is enough?

Another widely misunderstood practice is measuring mudguard height from the road to "adjust" WDH tension, with 2" drop seeming to be regularly quoted. This also is garbage as TBO and spring ratings are two of the main variables, along with wheelbase. A car with heavy-duty springs, long wheelbase and a short TBO is going to drop a lot less than a car with factory springs, short wheelbase, and long TBO, assuming same towball weight. My car drops 15mm, tops.

Then we get the clowns who wind the WDH up so high that there is so little rear-axle weight that oversteer is likely.

In days gone by a WDH was used by Ma and Pa to level the overloaded Kingswood and Viscount, in order to minimise unwanted attention from PC, but nowadays the "Levelling up of the combination" (your words) is of far less importance UNLESS the van has non-loadsharing suspension, where having the van level is critical. The stance of the car is unimportant, within reason.

As you suggest in your second to last paragraph above there is so much confusion and disagreement, even among WDH manufacturers and other "eggspurts" that it reinforces my belief that a WDH is indeed a con-job along the lines of Radial Tuned Suspension from the '70s! Remember the "HooHaa" over that? A blasted swaybar. Spare me.

Again I will say that a WDH is produced in an effort to make a car do things for which it never was designed.

Get a more suitable car, or a smaller van, remembering always that if safety is of any importance always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% more than the weight on the wheels of the van. Cheers

P.S Some people seem to have NO idea?

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 23rd of October 2023 12:35:01 PM

BasilB · Veteran Member

and an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

cheers

yobarr · Guru

BasilB wrote:
and an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

cheers

Could I respectfully suggest to you that instead of bleating and presenting convoluted theories and mistruths that you team-up with Alan and approach WDH manufacturers, pointing out their mistakes and false assertions?

That way you would not be tainting the advice offered to those members who are simply wanting to learn.

WDH does NOT change towball weight. Never has. Never will. Cheers

Eaglemax · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
The DISTRIBUTED weight comes OFF the car's REAR AXLE and is DISTRIBUTED to the car's front axle (about 70%) and the van's axle group. (about 30%) Not negotiable.
Nobody is disputing this part yet that is what you keep repeating ad nauseum as if everyone needs to be convinced.
As everyone is agreed on that part at least, but disagrees with what you say about towball weight let's accept the differences and move on. It is irrelevant to what the effect of a WDH is.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 22nd of October 2023 05:08:21 PM

Hi ARE WE Lost. You criticise Yobarr for repeating himself. Yet, 15 of YOUR posts ago you said "But as I have said before this whole argument about whether weight on the towball changes or not is irrelevant. That has no bearing on what the effect of the WDH is. So I am avoiding getting into that part of the discussion."

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Monday 23rd of October 2023 02:33:11 PM

Eaglemax · Guru

BasilB wrote:
and an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

cheers

Basil, 5 pages of the best evidence obtainable (yes I researched as much as I could about WDH effect on WDH's and not even an engineering answer I can come up with) and you comment without proof to back up your theory. Now, there is countless www comments by what could be labelled "competant caravan experts" in Oz, USA and UK that I read supporting that towball mass doesnt change when adding a WDH. If it did it would be a minute amount not relevant on this debate.

So just provide proof if you can. Thnaks

Tony

Gundog · Guru

yobarr wrote:
BasilB wrote:
and an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

cheers
Could I respectfully suggest to you that instead of bleating and presenting convoluted theories and mistruths that you team-up with Alan and approach WDH manufacturers, pointing out their mistakes and false assertions?
That way you would not be tainting the advice offered to those members who are simply wanting to learn.
WDH does NOT change towball weight. Never has. Never will. Cheers

I see where your problem is and its a presumption on my behalf, that you are referencing HR that yes TBW doesn't change, but that data evolves from 1970's thinking. 21st centuary data does confirm TBW changes with more modern equipment.

Watch this video which basically tells you, your TBW is distributed to the Caravan and front axle of your vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtjQY4XgIUU

Eaglemax · Guru

Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
BasilB wrote:
and an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

cheers
Could I respectfully suggest to you that instead of bleating and presenting convoluted theories and mistruths that you team-up with Alan and approach WDH manufacturers, pointing out their mistakes and false assertions?
That way you would not be tainting the advice offered to those members who are simply wanting to learn.
WDH does NOT change towball weight. Never has. Never will. Cheers
I see where your problem is and its a presumption on my behalf, that you are referencing HR that yes TBW doesn't change, but that data evolves from 1970's thinking. 21st centuary data does confirm TBW changes with more modern equipment.
Watch this video which basically tells you, your TBW is distributed to the Caravan and front axle of your vehicle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtjQY4XgIUU

There's a big problem with that account on youtube Gundog- That is, there are many more that counter that arguement. This on below has a number of rigs weighed and each time the man stresses that weight with a WDH is transfered from the fback to the front of the towcar and a residual amount say 30kg is transfered to the caravan- not the towball. I recommend watching this from beginning to end

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElT0E1LYOo

Tony

BasilB · Veteran Member

an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

we know this because mass doesn't change.

might be time for a lesson from someone with scales.

cheers

BasilB · Veteran Member

hi Tony,

a 30kg increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease of 30kg from the tow ball weight. (294N)

cheers

-- Edited by BasilB on Monday 23rd of October 2023 03:59:51 PM

-- Edited by BasilB on Monday 23rd of October 2023 04:03:30 PM

Eaglemax · Guru

BasilB wrote:
an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

we know this because mass doesn't change.

might be time for a lesson from someone with scales.

cheers

and here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElT0E1LYOo

Tony

Eaglemax · Guru

BasilB wrote:
hi Tony,

a 30kg increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease of 30kg from the tow ball weight. (294N)

cheers

-- Edited by BasilB on Monday 23rd of October 2023 03:59:51 PM
No, if you watch the video I just posted, the towcar weighs 30kg less after a WDH is attached and that 30kg if distributed to the caravan wheels not the towball.

-- Edited by BasilB on Monday 23rd of October 2023 04:03:30 PM

BasilB · Veteran Member

yes Tony, and that is 30kg (294N) of hitched weight removed. now i wonder where that extra vehicle weight came from when the caravan was hitched?

cheers

-- Edited by BasilB on Monday 23rd of October 2023 04:24:53 PM

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
BasilB wrote:
an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

we know this because mass doesn't change.

might be time for a lesson from someone with scales.

cheers
and here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElT0E1LYOo
Tony

Maaaaate! 10/10. That video should be compulsory viewing, with an exam to follow, for ALL caravanners, particularly those who persist in waffling on about stuff that they clearly have little knowledge or understanding of. Thanks Tony, for posting it

BLUDDY UNREAL!

The video confirms everything that I have persisted in posting over the years in my efforts to help people, despite much opposition and many insults from the usual suspects. Unreal. I'm rapt that the indesputable truth is so clearly presented.

The main reason that some manufacturers specify a WDH above a certain tow weight (towball weight) is that they know that their car's rear axle capacity is too low is just one of the many things I've posted, and been criticised for. Think 'Jeep' for one, but there are several others. DMax?

As I've said over and over, a WDH is used only in an effort to make a car do things for which it never was designed.

Get a better car or a smaller van.

My assertions have been regularly challenged and disputed by a couple of regulars, who have recently garnered support from others with an equal lack of understanding, but who have plenty to say.

If this video doesn't serve to show these members that they're totally incorrect then I fear that there's little hope.

Maaaate, this video serves to provide so much assistance to members who are receptive to factual advice, and who actually WANT to understand their weights that I can only hope that every GN reads and comprehends it. Unreal!

It never is my intention to ridicule others, but in the face of persistent adversity sometimes I may seem assertive. Cheers

P.S With weights there is no room for opinion

Your weights are right. Or they're wrong.

Eaglemax · Guru

BasilB wrote:
yes Tony, and that is 30kg (294N) of hitched weight removed. now i wonder where that extra vehicle weight came from when the caravan was hitched?

cheers

-- Edited by BasilB on Monday 23rd of October 2023 04:24:53 PM

Basil I went to the toruble of finding it for you... this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElT0E1LYOo at the 13:22 minutes mark!!! it says "where did the 30kg go to? well it was transfered to the caravan" Now I'm done, if you cant watch a video for 20 minutes or even go to the second that expert tells it then thats the end of my help.

Tony

Eaglemax · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Eaglemax wrote:
BasilB wrote:
an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

we know this because mass doesn't change.

might be time for a lesson from someone with scales.

cheers
and here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElT0E1LYOo
Tony
Maaaaate! 10/10. That video should be compulsory viewing, with an exam to follow, for ALL caravanners, particularly those who persist in waffling on about stuff that they clearly have little knowledge or understanding of. Thanks Tony, for posting it
BLUDDY UNREAL!
The video confirms everything that I have persisted in posting over the years in my efforts to help people, despite much opposition and many insults from the usual suspects. Unreal. I'm rapt that the indesputable truth is so clearly presented.
The main reason that some manufacturers specify a WDH above a certain tow weight (towball weight) is that they know that their car's rear axle capacity is too low is just one of the many things I've posted, and been criticised for. Think 'Jeep' for one, but there are several others. DMax?
As I've said over and over, a WDH is used only in an effort to make a car do things for which it never was designed.
Get a better car or a smaller van.
My assertions have been regularly challenged and disputed by a couple of regulars, who have recently garnered support from others with an equal lack of understanding, but who have plenty to say.
If this video doesn't serve to show these members that they're totally incorrect then I fear that there's little hope.
Maaaate, this video serves to provide so much assistance to members who are receptive to factual advice, and who actually WANT to understand their weights that I can only hope that every GN reads and comprehends it. Unreal!
It never is my intention to ridicule others, but in the face of persistent adversity sometimes I may seem assertive. Cheers
P.S With weights there is no room for opinion
Your weights are right. Or they're wrong.

Thankyou Yobarr. You would think that experts like this man in the video, if the 30kg wasnt transfered to the caravan wheels, would say so- there is no way that the weight is transfered back to nor from the towball mass. Or all these caravan experts including Hayman Reece (that email I received) would say it was.

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Monday 23rd of October 2023 05:49:58 PM

BasilB · Veteran Member

and an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does.

cheers

BasilB · Veteran Member

hi Tony, now where did that 30KG (294N) come from?

cheers

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
Basil I went to the toruble of finding it for you... this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElT0E1LYOo at the 13:22 minutes mark!!! it says "where did the 30kg go to? well it was transfered to the caravan" Now I'm done, if you cant watch a video for 20 minutes or even go to the second that expert tells it then thats the end of my help.
Tony

Unfortunately Tony, we can help only those who are receptive to assistance. Others, no chance. Cheers

BasilB · Veteran Member

hi yobarr, now where did that 30KG (294N) come from?

cheers

yobarr · Guru

BasilB wrote:
hi yobarr, now where did that 30KG (294N) come from?

cheers

This is becoming somewhat monotonous, as the weight distribution exercise has been explained, in detail, many, many times. Could I suggest that instead of flogging a dead horse you instead use the 'search' feature on this page. Cheers

P.S In case you haven't noticed previous posts, a WDH does NOT change towball weight.

Watching the video posted by Tony MAY enlighten you?

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 23rd of October 2023 06:11:33 PM

BasilB · Veteran Member

hi yobarr, now where did that 30KG (294N) come from?

in your own words

cheers

Gundog · Guru

Tony I watched the vid you suggested.

In my honest opinion this bloke like others who use portable weighing systems, are in no position to comment on weight distribution hitches, this bloke made some errors in his presentation.

Why you may ask, first off how do you get to a weighbridge to check weigh your combination, there has to be a process to get your combination prepared correctly before towing a fully loaded combination.

In my case because my vehicle requires the use of a WDH when towing trailers in excess of 1800kg, the process to setting up your van and tug do not alter, to begin with it all starts at measuring the coupling height of the van when level, next is to set the towball height to match the coupling height.

Again in my case I need to measure the front and rear axle heights before hooking up, upon hooking up measuring again the T&R axle heights and the height of the chassis at the F&R of the van. As I'm using a WDH I will engage the bars to lift the rear of the ute to get the front axle back to it pre measured height.

If your not using a WDH you still need to get the combination in some form level, it no good if your lights are looking at the stars or the bum of you caravan is lower than the front by a big amount.

Because WDH's vary their setup instructions, my last two have variations as to the ball height the genuine ford one was coupling and towball the same but my current one the ball is set 5/8ths of an inch higher than the coupling.

So we have our combination in a position of being suitable to venture out on the roads, now its time to hit the weighbridge to get all the numbers, this is the time we actually get to know our towball.

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr

You can troll the internet to try to prove your point, but nobody is disputing what a WHD does. What is disputed is your claim that the car gets lighter and the van heavier when a WDH is tensioned

So far you still have not chosen your preference as to whether it is the force of gravity or the relevant masses the change to accommodate your belief.

Alan

PS Until you understand some very basic physics concepts you will forever remain in the dark .

Alan