WDH

Are We Lost · Guru

WDH

jegog · Senior Member

If when tensioning a WDH the sum of the vehicle axles increase and the weight on the van axle/s increase then the only way that can happen is if the increased weights come from the ball/tongue weight.
But don't take my word for it, look at this video.
www.google.com/search

yobarr · Guru

jegog wrote:
If when tensioning a WDH the sum of the vehicle axles increase and the weight on the van axle/s increase then the only way that can happen is if the increased weights come from the ball/tongue weight.
But don't take my word for it, look at this video.
www.google.com/search

Sorry Dennis, but it appears to me that you're utterly confused. All the convoluted theories presented, along with the associated lack of understanding of simple physics by some members, had resulted in me losing interest in what should be a such a simple process, but to the best of my knowledge NOWHERE has it ever been said that "the sum of the vehicle axles increase". (Your words)

Quite the contrary, with the REDUCTION in weight on vehicle axles equalling the INCREASE in weight on the van axle/s. Surprising! Who woulda thought?

The total weight on wheels (GCM if you like) does NOT change, TBW does NOT change, but the total weight has been distributed differently over the 3 separate axle groups. (Front axle of car, rear axle of car, and axle group of caravan).

With my car, using a WDH to remove 100kg from the car's REAR axle resulted in the distribution of 70kg kg to the car's FRONT axle and distribution of 30kg to the van's axle group.

Total weight on wheels stayed constant but that weight was distributed differently.

TBW does NOT change. Never has. Never will.

The video's got to be a joke as nothing makes sense. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 21st of October 2023 12:17:14 AM

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Again Yobarr your theory that towball weight does not change mean that to be so the car must become lighter and the van heavier.

This is a physical impossibility which you continue to just ignore.

Again explain which physical property the WDH changes, mass of the force of gravity.

Alan

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr Dennis posted a very good video by someone with more knowledge of physics than yourself. Again you reject it because it shows yet again that your belief is wrong. Look at the table that has been calculated at the 4 min mark.

Add together the figures in columns Fv and F3 and the result is 8300 lbs(wt), this is the unchangeable weight of the trailer.

This again shows exactly what I have been saying. The total weight of the trailer is fixed by its mass so an increase in axle weight is matched by an equal reduction in tow ball weight.

THIS IS BASIC VERY SIMPLE PHYSICS.

alan

Are We Lost · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
This again shows exactly what I have been saying. The total weight of the trailer is fixed by its mass so an increase in axle weight is matched by an equal reduction in tow ball weight.

Agree.

Jegog, thanks for posting that link. It is a little more technical than the typical explanation but not too much. But I will need to watch it again to appreciate it fully. With your comment on axle weights increasing, I believe you are on the path but did not take into account that the net effect of the lighter ball/tongue weight is included in the axles' weight. The overall combined weight on the axles can not change.

Yobar, if you think there is something wrong in the video, what specifically?

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 21st of October 2023 10:41:45 AM

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Again Yobarr your theory that towball weight does not change mean that to be so the car must become lighter and the van heavier.
This is a physical impossibility which you continue to just ignore.
Again explain which physical property the WDH changes, mass of the force of gravity.
Alan

Alan, again I believe that you're simply being mischievous, and that Stephen is along for the ride.

How do you explain this situation, presented in an earlier post? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 21st of October 2023 11:42:03 AM

Are We Lost · Guru

yobarr wrote:
How do you explain this situation, presented in an earlier post? Cheers

Easy to explain. Your words that show you have misunderstood Alan's post. He did not say that, indicate it or anything like that. In fact it is baffling how you could interpret that is what he meant.

You still have not said specifically what you think is wrong with jegog's linked video.

btw, is that you with the chainsaw?

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 21st of October 2023 01:16:46 PM

BasilB · Veteran Member

well it got me thinking,

Weight is a measure of the force of gravity on a physical object and is measured in newtons. N

Mass is the amount of matter in a body measured in kilograms. KG

so tensioning a spring is changing weight not mass.

mind blown

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
How do you explain this situation, presented in an earlier post? Cheers

Easy to explain. WHAT EXACTLY do you believe is EASY TO EXPLAIN? You've lost me.
Your words that show you have misunderstood Alan's post. This sentence makes no sense at all. (Read it carefully.)
He did not say that, indicate it or anything like that. WHAT are you on about? Please explain exactly WHAT it is that you believe "he did not say say, indicate it or anything like that".
In fact it is baffling how you could interpret that is what he meant. Some people are more conversant than I with posting "baffling" statements, and the interpretation thereof.
You still have not said specifically what you think is wrong with jegog's linked video. So stupid it's not worthy of discussion.
btw, is that you with the chainsaw? Was it not you who emailed photos to me from your photo album?

For the 700th time (approx) I will advise that a WDH increases weight that van's wheels apply to the ground, and reduces weight that car's wheels apply to the ground. Not negotiable. Sorry.

Could I respectfully suggest that instead of waffling on with seemingly endless convoluted theories, ideas and "illustrations" you should conduct your own tests, which will confirm my figures.

TBW and car's wheelbase, along with the van's forward length, will give different figures for the distributed weight, but the results will be very similar unless you use a stupidly-short wheelbase car such as an LC200. Cheers.

P.S My results AGAIN for your perusal. Good luck.

-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 21st of October 2023 04:43:55 PM

Are We Lost · Guru

BasilB, you commented on the difference between mass and weight and measuring in newtons. The video explanation is about rotational forces and compares the WDH to a tension wrench. I agree that is more precise terminilogy. But most of us use "weight" and do not consider the difference between rotational force, weight and mass in this context. The rotational force is so close to precisely vertical and movement so small it makes little difference.

You could say the mass of the van is unchanged and it is the rotational force from the WDH that results in increased weight on the van wheels. But everyone refers to weight transferred in kilograms. I mentioned early in the thread about not using those terms because many are not familiar with them. Even HR refer to weight transfer and do not mention newtons.

Yobarr, these threads always go the same way and it is pointless arguing about who said what. So I will leave it to you to show where Alan said the weight on the van wheels does not change. If you paste those words I will be the first to apologise. You keep repeating the same stuff over and over .... you said 700 times. As to the weight changes on the axles I don't know who you think needs that explanation as nobody on here is disputing that.

About the video posted by jegog: He apparently thought there was worthwhile material in it. Three others have responded positively as well.

However in your case, you think it is rubbish yet are apparently unable to explain what is wrong with it. I am sure you realise the message that sends to other readers on here.

To finish on a lighter note I will give you a compliment. I thought the comeback on the chainsaw man was good. I was wondering what you would say. A little banter helps takes the angst from disagreements.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 22nd of October 2023 11:18:15 AM

Brenda and Alan · Guru

BasilB As you correctly point out these are the correct terminology

I have mentioned in other threads the various units used in discussion.

Mass measured in Kg this is one of the basic units of the MKS system ( dimensions are kilogram )

Weight measured in newtons. ( Dimensions are metre kilogram divided by second squared )

By convention weight is commonly expressed in Kilograms weight ( KgWt ). this is Newtons divided by the Dimensionless number 9.806.

Unfortunately this seems to cause some people to confuse the terms mass and weight and they believe them to be the same thing.

Alan

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr

I am still waiting for you to point to the post where you think I said that the weight on the cars wheels doesn't change.

I have never said anything of the sort.

What I have said is the the cars weight contribution to the scales is constant and can't change. This is because I trust Newton to be correct not you or H-R.

As I have said before your weighing exercise is of little point as the results of using a WDH is not in dispute only the reasons for the result.

Both you and H-R think that the car becomes lighter and the van heavier without considering that this is not possible.

Alan

Gundog · Guru

Here's another vid ? you watch it and make your own conclusions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtjQY4XgIUU

KJB · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr
I am still waiting for you to point to the post where you think I said that the weight on the cars wheels doesn't change.
I have never said anything of the sort.
What I have said is the the cars weight contribution to the scales is constant and can't change. This is because I trust Newton to be correct not you or H-R.
As I have said before your weighing exercise is of little point as the results of using a WDH is not in dispute only the reasons for the result.
Both you and H-R think that the car becomes lighter and the van heavier without considering that this is not possible.
Alan

Alan

Once again, the Mass of the Vehicle and of the Caravan remain constant, the WDH makes it possible to transfere a portion of the Weight from the Rear axle of the Tow vehicle and and distribute some of it to the Front axle and the reminder to the Caravan axle.

The Tow ball weight does not change and is accounted for in the initial Rear axle weight ....

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr
I am still waiting for you to point to the post where you think I said that the weight on the cars wheels doesn't change.
I have never said anything of the sort.

Alan, it seems that again you are confused as nowhere did I attribute that post to you, merely saying that that comment had been made in "A previous post" NOT "your previous post".

I merely was seeking your thoughts on such an assertion, made by the same member who posted the link to the non-sensical video.

Said post was made by Jegog as evidenced below. Perhaps you could pay more attention?. Cheers

BasilB · Veteran Member

actually, an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight because the mass doesn't change.

yobarr · Guru

BasilB wrote:
actually, an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight because the mass doesn't change.

For heavens sake, this has been done to death over the 5+ years that I've been a member here.

A WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. Never has. Never will.

If you disagree perhaps you would do well to take up with Alan, and the pair of you then could approach HR, in force, to let them know that despite designing, manufacturing and selling WDHs for more than 50 years they don't know anything.

This would be preferable to throwing in your own convoluted theories that do nothing but confuse those members, usually "newbies", who simply are trying to learn. Cheerski

KJB · Guru

BasilB wrote:
actually, an increase in caravan axle weight means a decrease in tow ball weight because the mass doesn't change.

You are talking about 2 different things (weight/mass) and not taking into account the WDH....it distributes Weight...not change Mass.

Are We Lost · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr
I am still waiting for you to point to the post where you think I said that the weight on the cars wheels doesn't change.
I have never said anything of the sort.
Alan, it seems that again you are confused as nowhere did I attribute that post to you, merely saying that that comment had been made in "A previous post" NOT "your previous post".

Really?

Here is your post 10:58am on 18 October.

yobarr wrote:

Sorry Alan, but this is becoming monotonous. You're now telling HR they're wrong, and that you "laughed" at them.
......................

.....................
According to your convoluted theories, weight on the car's wheels doesn't change, so the front axle now would be carrying 3650kg, while the van's axle group would stay at 3150kg, because that doesn't change either, according to you.
Yeah, right! LaLa Land stuff.
Sincerely, I hope that this helps you. Cheers

I offerred an apology if I was wrong. How about yours.

How about stopping the ridicule and move on. Instead of just spouting the same thing over and over again and presenting your opinion as fact .... EXPLAIN why you think that everyone who has posted logic is wrong.

BasilB · Veteran Member

actually, tow ball weight can be measured at the tow vehicle axles because the mass doesn't change.

-- Edited by BasilB on Sunday 22nd of October 2023 02:10:30 PM

BasilB · Veteran Member

and as has been mentioned, tow ball weight can be changed by simply raising or lowering the tow ball.

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr
I am still waiting for you to point to the post where you think I said that the weight on the cars wheels doesn't change.
I have never said anything of the sort.
Alan, it seems that again you are confused as nowhere did I attribute that post to you, merely saying that that comment had been made in "A previous post" NOT "your previous post".
Really?
Here is your post 10:58am on 18 October.

yobarr wrote:

Sorry Alan, but this is becoming monotonous. You're now telling HR they're wrong, and that you "laughed" at them.
......................
.....................
According to your convoluted theories, weight on the car's wheels doesn't change, so the front axle now would be carrying 3650kg, while the van's axle group would stay at 3150kg, because that doesn't change either, according to you.
Yeah, right! LaLa Land stuff.
Sincerely, I hope that this helps you. Cheers
I offerred an apology if I was wrong. How about yours.
How about stopping the ridicule and move on. Instead of just spouting the same thing over and over again and presenting your opinion as fact .... EXPLAIN why you think that everyone who has posted logic is wrong.

Not again. Stephen, could I ask that you actually read my post above where I gave figures from my own weighing exercise to show Alan that weight applied to ground by wheels of car changes, as does weight applied to ground by wheels of van.

You seem to have confused that response with the one given to Dennis (Jegog) who attests that the weight on the car's axles increases, and so too does the weight on the van's axles, so the increase in weights comes from the ball/tongue weight. (Screen shot below). Yeah, right. Total confusion. LaLa land stuff.

Never have I attributed that comment to Alan.

Rote learning sometimes is a great educational tool, but only when people actually want to learn.

It never is my intention to "ridicule" anyone, but when their misguided beliefs may negatively influence others who simply are wanting to learn, always I will become involved.

Anyway, must go as already I've missed Church. Cheers

Are We Lost · Guru

BasilB wrote:
actually, tow ball weight can be measured at the tow vehicle axles because the mass doesn't change.

and as has been mentioned, tow ball weight can be changed by simply raising or lowering the tow ball.

It can be calculated from weight changes at the car axles but can't be directly measured. Once connected there is no way with standard equipment to measure the ball weight.

Yes, towball weight can change by raising or lowering, but the change is small and is unrelated to the change by tensioning the WDH. So there could be two factors involved. However, as I have said before, the correct way to measure towball weight is with the van level, and that is the way it should be for travelliing. If you are going to be travelling with it not level for some reason, then it should be weighed as it would be set for travel. So if the coupling is at a different height from when it was measured, it is set up incorrectly (ignoring minor discrepancies).

BasilB · Veteran Member

tow ball weight is calculated by the difference in tow vehicle axle weights when hitched and unhitched. (level, constant gravity)

an increase in caravan axle weights means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does. (there, i've said it)

because mass doesn't change.

yobarr · Guru

BasilB wrote:
tow ball weight is calculated by the difference in tow vehicle axle weights when hitched and unhitched. (level, constant gravity)

an increase in caravan axle weights means a decrease in tow ball weight. what a wdh does. (there, i've said it)
because mass doesn't change.

Back to school for you Baz. Towball weight does NOT change when a WDH is used. The DISTRIBUTED weight comes OFF the car's REAR AXLE and is DISTRIBUTED to the car's front axle (about 70%) and the van's axle group. (about 30%) Not negotiable.

Sad. Inconvenient. Indisputable truth.

BasilB · Veteran Member

a change in caravan axle weight means a change in tow ball weight. being of the same mass 'n all

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Spot on BasilB. Yobarrs problem is he just can't abide being proven wrong so he chooses to ignore very simple physics and simple arithmetic.

Alan

KJB · Guru

BasilB wrote:
a change in caravan axle weight means a change in tow ball weight. being of the same mass 'n all

?????

Are We Lost · Guru

yobarr wrote:
The DISTRIBUTED weight comes OFF the car's REAR AXLE and is DISTRIBUTED to the car's front axle (about 70%) and the van's axle group. (about 30%) Not negotiable.

Nobody is disputing this part yet that is what you keep repeating ad nauseum as if everyone needs to be convinced.

As everyone is agreed on that part at least, but disagrees with what you say about towball weight let's accept the differences and move on. It is irrelevant to what the effect of a WDH is.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 22nd of October 2023 05:08:21 PM