WDH

yobarr · Guru

WDH

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Since it is only a WDH mounted upside down it must be someone who has a European van and believe you that it MUST have 10% ball weight. As you should by now know a WDH reduces ball loading. If it didn't there would be no point in using one. Mounted upside down it would have the effect of increasing ball weight.

Yobarr why did you post this here instead of your instigated weights and measures forum.

Alan

-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Tuesday 10th of October 2023 06:47:33 PM

Are We Lost · Guru

Mounted upside down ...... well not upside dowm, but fitted on top rather than underneath. But it is still doing the exact same function as a normal bar type WDH. The arms are pressing down on brackets on the drawbar rather than pulling down on chains on the underside of the drawbar. The same effect. That is based on what can be seen on the RHS of the drawbar. The LHS is not clearly visible and the chain appears to be doing nothing.

Perhaps the chain is meant to be attached to the pin on the RHS of the drawbar to stop it splaying out when under load.

My guess .... it is a DIY solution developed because bars underneath would be too low. The bars look lile they are part of the lightweight 2 or 4 bar load levelling sets. I note the brackets are not equal distances from the coupling and the brackets are different. Myabe the LHS broke.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 10th of October 2023 07:19:33 PM

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Since it is only a WDH mounted upside down it must be someone who has a European van and believe you that it MUST have 10% ball weight. As you should by now know a WDH reduces ball loading. If it didn't there would be no point in using one. Mounted upside down it would have the effect of increasing ball weight.
Yobarr why did you post this here instead of your instigated weights and measures forum.
Alan

Hi Alan. Of late you seem to have been conspicuous by your absence, so to my consternation, I simply assumed that you were busying yourself communicating with HR to inform them that, according to Alan, for 50 years their advice that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT has been incorrect?

In the past I have spent much time patiently explaining this to you, to no apparent effect?

However, in case any newbies happen to read your incorrect assertion that a WDH changes towball weight, I will again give a brief explanation of what happens.

A tensioned WDH removes weight from the car's REAR AXLE and transfers about 70% (+/-) of that weight to the car's FRONT AXLE and about 30% (+/-) of that weight to the VAN'S AXLE GROUP. Towball weight DOES NOT change. Never has. Never will.

Towball overhang and the car's wheelbase are the two main determinants of the percentages of weight transferred to the van's axle group and car's front axle. Towball weight does not, has not, will not, and never will change when a WDH is tensioned. Seems some might need to return to school!

My apologies for inadvertently starting this general interest thread in the "General" section of our forum. Cheers

P.S Today I spoke with a couple who have a brand new van, about 25' and ATM of 3100kg, behind a 4wd Hilux. GCM 5850kg. Lovely couple that had been assured by both the van salesman and the car dealer that all would be good, safe and legal, despite the van having a claimed tare of 2600kg. Yeah, right.

Tomorrow I may do their weights for them, but I will have to do some thinking on that because they're permanently on the road, and over 4000km from where they sold their home. I don't really want to burst their bubble, but they're playing with fire if ever they're involved in an accident. Decisions, decisions.

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 10th of October 2023 09:48:38 PM

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Mounted upside down ...... well not upside dowm, but fitted on top rather than underneath. But it is still doing the exact same function as a normal bar type WDH. The arms are pressing down on brackets on the drawbar rather than pulling down on chains on the underside of the drawbar. The same effect. That is based on what can be seen on the RHS of the drawbar. The LHS is not clearly visible and the chain appears to be doing nothing.

Perhaps the chain is meant to be attached to the pin on the RHS of the drawbar to stop it splaying out when under load.

My guess .... it is a DIY solution developed because bars underneath would be too low. The bars look lile they are part of the lightweight 2 or 4 bar load levelling sets. I note the brackets are not equal distances from the coupling and the brackets are different. Myabe the LHS broke.

Interesting observations Steve. When I first saw this picture I dismissed the setup as work of a dimwit, but you are correct with your assertions. Still looks stupid and might give trouble on sharp turns? Cheers

Craig1 · Guru

why did you not approach the owners in your usual friendly manner and ask them ?

yobarr · Guru

Craig1 wrote:
why did you not approach the owners in your usual friendly manner and ask them ?

Hi Craig. Thanks for noting my approachability and willingness to help, but that picture was not taken by me. It just got my attention and I decided to share. Cheers

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal. That is it would increase towball download instead of reducing it.

Yobarr. Just because Haymen Reece have been spouting rubbish for 50 years does not make them correct.

What you claim in effect is that a WDH changes the force of gravity or mysteriously transfers matter from the tug to the caravan or both. If it is gravity that you think is changed it would have to increase for the van whilst at the same time reducing for the tug. If it is mass transfer you think is responsible for the change when a WDH is tensioned, I have not yet found anything in our van that was in the tug before tensioning.

Consider this if a WDH had no effect on towball download, then the result of using one would be nil.

Alan

Are We Lost · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal.

The bars are mounted to the tow vehicle exactly the same as a normally mounted WDH. Lift the bars and the back of the tow vehicle lifts. The difference is the tension bars are usually under the drawbar. When they are tensioned they pull down on the drawbar via the chains. In this photo, the tension bars are on top of the drawbar and push down on it. So the same effect.

As for how this affects towball load I agree it would defy physics for that not to change. Someone who can not see that must not understand the physics involved. But it has no bearing on how the system performs. It has been argued about before and as I see it, is not important. So I don't see the benefit in going through that argument again.

TimTim · Senior Member

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal. That is it would increase towball download instead of reducing it.
Yobarr. Just because Haymen Reece have been spouting rubbish for 50 years does not make them correct.
What you claim in effect is that a WDH changes the force of gravity or mysteriously transfers matter from the tug to the caravan or both. If it is gravity that you think is changed it would have to increase for the van whilst at the same time reducing for the tug. If it is mass transfer you think is responsible for the change when a WDH is tensioned, I have not yet found anything in our van that was in the tug before tensioning.
Consider this if a WDH had no effect on towball download, then the result of using one would be nil.
Alan

Yep Im no scientist but Im confused confuse because when I hitch my van up the back of my tug sinks down and the front rises up. I guess this is due to the gravitational force exerted on the tow ball. smile

Then when I put my WDH on, the back rises up and front sinks down. Surely this wouldnt happen if there is no effect on tow ball weight .

I wonder if it is something to do with the WDH changing the point load on the tow ball to a distributed load through the chassis.

-- Edited by TimTim on Wednesday 11th of October 2023 04:27:22 PM

TimTim · Senior Member

-- Edited by TimTim on Wednesday 11th of October 2023 04:29:10 PM

Long Weekend · Guru

The photo is too dark for me to distinguish very much detail.

Hmm. Not using a WDH and not an expert, but, I wonder if the bars have simply been put in the holes that way in order to keep them handy?

That being the case, when the user wanted to hitch up they would just plug them in from the bottom and feed the chains also up from the bottom into the slots.

Just a thought.

Murray

Are We Lost · Guru

Long Weekend wrote:
...... I wonder if the bars have simply been put in the holes that way in order to keep them handy?

......

No. It's the main part of the standard light weight levelling bars set. Probably just a different manufacturer.

Here is a photo of mine (stored unused in the garage for many years).

The bars fit exactly as shown in the photo. That heavy lump of metal has a hole in it for the towball "bolt" part. So you sit it on the gooseneck, put the towball through them both and fit the nut. Exactly as shown in the original photo.

Then brackets fitted on the drawbar have a flat section to rest the other end of the bars when tensioned. Nothing to hold them in place except tension. Just lift with hands (from memory it was maybe 20-30kg per bar), and place each of the ends on the brackets. There is no fundamental difference between the way they were designed vs the original photo. Just the DIY appearance of those brackets and the fact that they sit a bit higher.

There are protrusions on the hook part of the bars that prevent them being lifted straight up. They need to be swivelled 90 degrees to the side and can then be lifted up and removed.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 11th of October 2023 06:16:09 PM

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal. That is it would increase towball download instead of reducing it.
Yobarr. Just because Hayman Reece have been spouting rubbish for 50 years does not make them correct.
What you claim in effect is that a WDH changes the force of gravity or mysteriously transfers matter from the tug to the caravan or both. If it is gravity that you think is changed it would have to increase for the van whilst at the same time reducing for the tug. If it is mass transfer you think is responsible for the change when a WDH is tensioned, I have not yet found anything in our van that was in the tug before tensioning.
Consider this if a WDH had no effect on towball download, then the result of using one would be nil.
Alan

Can I respectfully suggest that you write to HR, the designers and manufacturers of the most popular WDH available, to advise them that, according to Alan, they have been spouting rubbish for 50 years. They would no doubt be most appreciative of your input, and may well offer you millions of dollars for your advice. No, probably better to carry on sleeping.

Do you really think that a huge company such as HR is going to leave themselves open to litigation, initiated by buyers who believe they've been misled? Nah, back to sleep.

However, there is a lot more that I could divulge about TBO NOT being altered by the tensioning of a WDH, but that would only create absolute pandemonium, so I'll leave it alone. Cheers

P.S And NO, I will not respond to any demands that I reveal the results of my in-depth research.

Any interested persons can do their own.

P.P.S Is this a side effect of using a WDH? Probably better to purchase a more-suitable vehicle in the first place.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 11th of October 2023 06:38:44 PM

Eaglemax · Guru

I'm more worried about the welding of those brackets. Welding across the drawbar is not a good idea. Always weld along the corners of the drawbar RHS or C section.

As far as the way the WDH is mounted... I dunno... man has to know his limitations.... But I do know WDH doesnt not change towball weight.

Tony

Eaglemax · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal. That is it would increase towball download instead of reducing it.
Yobarr. Just because Haymen Reece have been spouting rubbish for 50 years does not make them correct.
What you claim in effect is that a WDH changes the force of gravity or mysteriously transfers matter from the tug to the caravan or both. If it is gravity that you think is changed it would have to increase for the van whilst at the same time reducing for the tug. If it is mass transfer you think is responsible for the change when a WDH is tensioned, I have not yet found anything in our van that was in the tug before tensioning.
Consider this if a WDH had no effect on towball download, then the result of using one would be nil.
Alan

Alan. Use a WDH as normal, lift the bars up and they lift the rea rof the car UP!. Now Yobarrs picture, lift the bars up and guess what- the rear of the car- goes UP!!!. Same effect.

Tony

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
I'm more worried about the welding of those brackets. Welding across the drawbar is not a good idea. Always weld along the corners of the drawbar RHS or C section.

As far as the way the WDH is mounted... I dunno... man has to know his limitations.... But I do know WDH doesn't change towball weight.

Tony

Thankyou, Tony, for your support on this issue. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, no matter how misguided they may be, but I find it abhorrent that newbies and others may be negatively influenced my such assertions, to their detriment. Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal. That is it would increase towball download instead of reducing it.
Yobarr. Just because Haymen Reece have been spouting rubbish for 50 years does not make them correct.
What you claim in effect is that a WDH changes the force of gravity or mysteriously transfers matter from the tug to the caravan or both. If it is gravity that you think is changed it would have to increase for the van whilst at the same time reducing for the tug. If it is mass transfer you think is responsible for the change when a WDH is tensioned, I have not yet found anything in our van that was in the tug before tensioning.
Consider this if a WDH had no effect on towball download, then the result of using one would be nil.
Alan

Alan, several times I have explained, in great detail, how YOU can prove to yourself that what I say is correct, but it seems that you are not willing to risk being shown to be wrong.

Perhaps, one day when/if I am in Victoria I can take you, in my car, to a weighbridge to show you EXACTLY what happens?

I'd have to borrow your WDH though, because after I discovered what a con-job they are I gave mine to someone I don't like. Better to buy a more-suitable vehicle in the first place. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 11th of October 2023 06:54:43 PM

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal. That is it would increase towball download instead of reducing it.

Surely you jest? You cannot be serious, surely?

It seems that YOU are the one who is well and truly lost here, with zero understanding of the physics involved.

Perhaps having the WDH upside down makes for safer reversing? Cheers

KJB · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost. Yobarrs pic shows a WDH mounted exactly opposite to normal, therefore it would have the opposite effect to normal. That is it would increase towball download instead of reducing it.
Surely you jest? You cannot be serious, surely?
It seems that YOU are the one who is well and truly lost here, with zero understanding of the physics involved.
Perhaps having the WDH upside down makes for safer reversing? Cheers

I think the "upside down" system is designed for the very light weight vans in some of the Northern Hemisphere countries - Engineered to account for "gravity in reverse..".....

Long Weekend · Guru

Hi When Are We There

Yes, I used those same ones when we started off with camper trailer many years ago. At that time I understood them to stop bouncing around rather than for weight distribution.

But why are chains used as shown in the photo?

Murray

Brenda and Alan · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Surely you jest? You cannot be serious, surely?
It seems that YOU are the one who is well and truly lost here, with zero understanding of the physics involved.
Perhaps having the WDH upside down makes for safer reversing? Cheers
I think maybe the jesting is from your side. Was it not you who frequently made the claim the a WDH resulted in an increase in total weight of the van and a consequent reduction in the tugs weight in order to rationalize your belief that towball load does not change.
I think Newtons laws have put paid to this nonsense. So an increase in axle weight on the van must be matched by a decrease in towball weight. Likewise a decrease in weight of tug plus towball weight must be due to a decease in that towball weight.
Aside from the above my education in physics is to tertiary level. Yours it seems from your posts is at lower high school level.
Read carefully my posts and digest their content rather than just dismissing them because you think you are right.
Alan

TimTim · Senior Member

Ok so correct me if Im wrong. I hook my caravan up and my rear suspension sinks. The back springs sags because of the load on the tow ball, a bit like a spring scales. biggrin .

Then I attach my weight distribution hitch and the rear suspension rises so Im thinking that there must be less load on the rear suspension and therefore less load on the tow-ball.

I think I just got hit on the head with an apple

Are We Lost · Guru

Long Weekend wrote:
Hi When Are We There
Yes, I used those same ones when we started off with camper trailer many years ago. At that time I understood them to stop bouncing around rather than for weight distribution.
But why are chains used as shown in the photo?
Murray

I assume it is me you meant to address.

The bouncing around is much improved because of the dynamic nature of a WDH. As a bounce pushes the towball down, the tension automatically increases, thus transferring a greater percentage of weight off the rear axle onto the front axle. When the bounce is opposite, and the rear end rises up, the tension is automatically reduced, having the opposite effect. Both actions are desirable in reducing that bounce. The rig becomes stiffer like a board when needed, and articulates like a hinge when not needed.

This dynamic tensioning feature also keeps the front/rear road grip much more stable, reducing the twitching that can lead to sway developing. So the small device does that just as a larger one does. Perfect when only a small correction is desirable.

I suggested in the first post that the chain (only one visible) may be there to run between the brackets and stop them spreading out. It is not something I have seen and can only guess at the purpose. I note the bracket on the LHS is not visible in the photo. Broken? Don't know.

yobarr · Guru

TimTim wrote:
Ok so correct me if Im wrong. I hook my caravan up and my rear suspension sinks. The back springs sags because of the load on the tow ball, a bit like a spring scales. .
Then I attach my weight distribution hitch and the rear suspension rises so Im thinking that there must be less load on the rear suspension and therefore less load on the tow-ball.
I think I just got hit on the head with an apple

Sorry Tim, you too are confused as it is possible to tension a WDH high enough to actually lift the rear wheels of a car off the road. Levers ar work.

Now try and tell me that there is NO weight on the towball. Front axle weight of car will gain around 70% (+/-) while vans axle group will gain 30% (+/-) of the weight removed from the cars rear axle. Towball weight does not change.
Main variables are wheelbase of car and towball overhang, or distance from rear axle of car to hitchpoint. Forward length of van also has an effect.
Somewhere I have a photo of such a situation, with rear wheels of car well clear of the road surface. Cheers

Are We Lost · Guru

yobarr wrote:

Perhaps, one day when/if I am in Victoria I can take you, in my car, to a weighbridge to show you EXACTLY what happens?

That was to Brenda and Alan. I would like to know how you would show the changing/not changing towball weight when you can only weigh the wheels once connected.

And that is the point I said earlier. It can't be measured with normal equipment, and has no bearing on what a WDH does.

Sorry, I said I was not going to argue this again. I just removed some comments.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 12th of October 2023 12:07:02 PM

Eaglemax · Guru

Hitch up your caravan. The car sags at the rear wheels. Observe towball weight. Now, ge tthe two strongest men in the world on the rear wheel arches of the tug and get them to lift the car up say 70mm. You will not see any towball weight change... A WDH is doing just that, transfering the weight back wheels to front wheels with spring tension, towball weight is unaffected.

Its all here-

https://www.truckfriendly.com.au/weight-distribution-hitches-facts-and-fiction/

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Thursday 12th of October 2023 03:17:38 PM

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Perhaps, one day when/if I am in Victoria I can take you, in my car, to a weighbridge to show you EXACTLY what happens?
That was to Brenda and Alan. I would like to know how you would show the changing/not changing towball weight when you can only weigh the wheels once connected.
And that is the point I said earlier. It can't be measured with normal equipment, and has no bearing on what a WDH does.
Sorry, I said I was not going to argue this again. I just removed some comments.

Hi Steve, Many times I have explained the procedure, and quite frankly I'm tiring of explaining the same thing, over and over, to those who do not, can not and will not understand. Ignorance is bliss. Cheers.

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
Hitch up your caravan. The car sags at the rear wheels. Observe towball weight. Now, ge tthe two strongest men in the world on the rear wheel arches of the tug and get them to lift the car up say 70mm. You will not see any towball weight change... A WDH is doing just that, transfering the weight back wheels to front wheels with spring tension, towball weight is unaffected.

Its all here-
https://www.truckfriendly.com.au/weight-distribution-hitches-facts-and-fiction/
Tony

Thanks for posting this, Tony, as it clearly and concisely explains the workings of a WDH, and clearly states that a WDH does NOT change towball weight. Never has. Never will. Period.

Could I respectfully suggest that if anybody amongst us still doesn't understand the workings of a WDH, and blissfully claims that HR, a 50 year old company that is the world's biggest manufacturer of WDH devices, "spout rubbish" then perhaps such a person is beyond help?

Since I have been a member here many people have come to realise that, with weights, I know what I'm talking about, but it seems that the "Head in the Sand" brigade still has an active membership?

To many, the inconvenient truth hurts, as evidenced by the number of caravanners that I meet on my travels who are most indignant when I show them that their twin-cab ute, or their LC200, or MUX etc has NO show of safely towing a 3500kg PIG trailer, WDH or no WDH. None.

And that in many cases, getting a GVM upgrade is a dead-set waste of money.

They do not seem to realise that they're overloaded, unsafe and uninsured, and that I'm only ever trying to help them. But still they want to shoot the messenger.

To save from "Bursting his bubble" I did not yesterday show a couple that their "Bit over 6 ton Mate" Hilux and van had NO show of being legal, safe, and insured. None. But at least it had "heavy duty springs Mate".

I can only pray that they are not involved in an incident that involves their insurance company. Thanks again. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of October 2023 05:01:15 PM

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of October 2023 05:15:17 PM

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of October 2023 05:17:21 PM

TimTim · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
TimTim wrote:
Ok so correct me if Im wrong. I hook my caravan up and my rear suspension sinks. The back springs sags because of the load on the tow ball, a bit like a spring scales. .
Then I attach my weight distribution hitch and the rear suspension rises so Im thinking that there must be less load on the rear suspension and therefore less load on the tow-ball.
I think I just got hit on the head with an apple
Sorry Tim, you too are confused as it is possible to tension a WDH high enough to actually lift the rear wheels of a car off the road. Levers ar work.
Now try and tell me that there is NO weight on the towball. Front axle weight of car will gain around 70% (+/-) while vans axle group will gain 30% (+/-) of the weight removed from the cars rear axle. Towball weight does not change.
Main variables are wheelbase of car and towball overhang, or distance from rear axle of car to hitchpoint. Forward length of van also has an effect.
Somewhere I have a photo of such a situation, with rear wheels of car well clear of the road surface. Cheers

Who said there was no load on the tow ball confuse . Definitely wasnt me biggrin . I do know what happens but it is a secret smile .