check out the new remote control Jockey Wheel SmartBar Canegrowers rearview170 Cobb Grill Skid Row Recovery Gear Caravan Industry Association of Australia
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: WDH


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 624
Date:
RE: WDH
Permalink Closed


Are We Lost wrote:

As for the old chestnut about "towball weight does not change with a WDH", has anyone considered why Hayman Reese would make such a statement? Why would they add wording about the inner workings of a WDH that nobody should care about?

To me, the answer is obvious.

They don't want Joe Caravaner believing that his 400kg towball load could be reduced to a legal 350kg by using a WDH.


Are We Lost,

That has been my thinking. One can understand why Hayman Reese would make a CYA statement.  
As I had posted previously, there is likely to be much more misuse of WDHs if people without proper knowledge thought that they could work magic from these devices.

Montie has posted statements from how a dealer practitioner needs to operate so that his customers have become compliant for their caravanning.  Fair enough.



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 75
Date:
Permalink Closed

montie wrote:

Well, this discussion continues in circles.

I doubt there is much further I can add in the way of useful information to this topic so I will conclude by adding the following comment.

Dealers and manufacturers live in a real world. Under the Consumer Act licensed dealers are legally required to provide accurate information to consumers. If this information is not at hand it is our responsibility to contact the manufacturer or importer of the product to obtain this info.

Towing capacity, tug and van ratings, towbar capacities, payload calculation etc., etc., must legally be conveyed to the buyer or prospective buyer. There is no margin for debate...if a tug or van manufacturer sets a rating we accept that, if an accessory manufacturer sets limits or provides information that's what we convey to the consumer.

If we want to know the weight of something, we weigh it....we don't estimate, calculate, assess or dream up formulae to work it out.
If we want to know the dimensions of something ...we measure it.

Unlike many posters on this thread we do not operate in a world of fantasy that includes Newton, endless formulae, space travel, gobbledegook and bullshxt and copious amounts of misleading or useless information.

We live in the real world of weighing scales, measuring tapes, legal ratings and the Australian Consumer Act.


 well that's a whole heap of back peddling for a simple maths problem.


cheers



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

BasilB wrote:
montie wrote:

Well, this discussion continues in circles.

I doubt there is much further I can add in the way of useful information to this topic so I will conclude by adding the following comment.

Dealers and manufacturers live in a real world. Under the Consumer Act licensed dealers are legally required to provide accurate information to consumers. If this information is not at hand it is our responsibility to contact the manufacturer or importer of the product to obtain this info.

Towing capacity, tug and van ratings, towbar capacities, payload calculation etc., etc., must legally be conveyed to the buyer or prospective buyer. There is no margin for debate...if a tug or van manufacturer sets a rating we accept that, if an accessory manufacturer sets limits or provides information that's what we convey to the consumer.

If we want to know the weight of something, we weigh it....we don't estimate, calculate, assess or dream up formulae to work it out.
If we want to know the dimensions of something ...we measure it.

Unlike many posters on this thread we do not operate in a world of fantasy that includes Newton, endless formulae, space travel, gobbledegook and bullshxt and copious amounts of misleading or useless information.

We live in the real world of weighing scales, measuring tapes, legal ratings and the Australian Consumer Act.


 well that's a whole heap of back peddling for a simple maths problem.


cheers


 Another excitingly informative post, but I wonder what is being peddled?
"Peddle" :- To sell illegal drugs or illicit goods.

And you may like to learn that Montie is one of few members who has a thorough and extensive knowledge of weights and dynamics concerning caravans, having spent many years in the caravan industry. 

Although everybody is entitled to an opinion, like me he no doubt gets frustrated having to repeatedly iterate what is so simple.

"Talking to a brick wall" and "LaLa Land stuff" come to mind.

"There is none so blind as he who will not see". Cheers



__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:

Maybe Yobarr may needs to understand that his negative comments about twin cab utes are misguided because "A bigger tow vehicle will not compensate for a poorly setup Hitch"

Those of us who decide to use a WDH are setting the balance between all the axles with a properly set up hitch.


 Clutching at straws now Graham?

Stupid little 6000kg GCM utes can NEVER safely Tow heavy 3500kg vans, no matter how many "gimmicks" they employ. Cheers


 Another statement of opinion lacking evidence.


 Surely you jest? The facts have been detailed MANY times so you either have a poor memory, or you simply don't understand.

There has been irrefutable evidence produced to support that statement, and I simply can't be bothered AGAIN posting it as I feel that if you don't understand by now, you never will. Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 15th of February 2024 03:23:22 PM


 Then why does Toyota Australia contradict that statements, by stating in their towing guide "If the total trailer weight is greater than the vehicle weight, use a sway control device."

Hmmm maybe Toyota knows something you dont.


LaLa Land stuff from you, again.

Toyota, like all manufacturers, simply takes advantage of a lack of sensible laws for vehicles under 4500kg GVM.

IF. I know this is unlikely BUT IF you've actually been reading my posts, and not simply looking at them, you will (maybe) have learned that it is LAW that if a tow vehicle has a GVM over 4500kg that vehicle must ALWAYS weigh more than any PIG trailer that it tows. Got it?

This is why we often see 6 wheeler tip trucks with a few metres of dirt in the body when the truck is towing  a PIG trailer with an excavator or Drott or whatever on it. This is to get the weight up higher than the weight of the loaded PIG trailer. Simple stuff.

Why do you think that is? Derrr SAFETY

The sooner that these laws are expanded to include ALL vehicles towing PIG trailers the safer we all will be.

Stupid little twin-cab utes towing 3500kg ATM trailers are an accident looking for a place to happen. Fact. 

I hope that this helps you understand the facts that I've repeatedly posted? Cheers

 



__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 8498
Date:
Permalink Closed

Give up Chris - there is none so blind that will not see.

__________________

Possum; AKA:- Ali El-Aziz Mohamed Gundawiathan

Sent from my imperial66 typewriter using carrier pigeon, message sticks and smoke signals.



Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 75
Date:
Permalink Closed

yobarr wrote

 Another excitingly informative post, but I wonder what is being peddled?
"Peddle" :- To sell illegal drugs or illicit goods.

And you may like to learn that Montie is one of few members who has a thorough and extensive knowledge of weights and dynamics concerning caravans, having spent many years in the caravan industry. 

Although everybody is entitled to an opinion, like me he no doubt gets frustrated having to repeatedly iterate what is so simple.

"Talking to a brick wall" and "LaLa Land stuff" come to mind.

"There is none so blind as he who will not see". Cheers


 and that's a whole heap of bleating for a simple maths problem.


cheers



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Gundog wrote:

 Then why does Toyota Australia contradict that statements, by stating in their towing guide "If the total trailer weight is greater than the vehicle weight, use a sway control device."

Hmmm maybe Toyota knows something you dont.


 Been working long hours, and not giving this forum as much time as I'd like to.

BUT just considered the highlighted text above, and I now wonder what on earth a "sway control device" has to do with a topic headed "WDH"? 

They are not even remotely related. 



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 17th of February 2024 06:47:30 PM

__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1050
Date:
Permalink Closed

yobarr wrote:
what on earth a "sway control device" has to do with a topic headed "WDH"? 

Some WDH include a sway control device. The Andersen Hitch has a friction bush between the ball and the hitch. Obviously it does not replace a device designed for that purpose, but every bit helps. When the load is taken off the ball I can't rotate the plate, even with a pretty decent hammer. Under the huge compression forces when it is tensioned that resistance would also be substantially increased.

Then there is the benefit of the WDH itself, whatever type. By replacing that lost weight on the front axle and reducing the weight on the rear axle, it improves the understeer caused by the front end being too light, and thus reducing the tyre grip.

However, I believe the point Gundog makes is that Toyota engineers believe that a tow vehicle lighter than what it tows can be made acceptably safe if using a sway control device.

So if a 3020kg tow vehicle with a 2980kg van behing is considered acceptable, the addition of a sway control device must make it safer. To me that is obvious. 2980 and 3020? 2900 and 3100?

There is no specific point that a rig changes from safe to unsafe. It is all just degrees of being less safe compared to not towing at all, and what we consider acceptable.



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 17th of February 2024 07:35:03 PM

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
what on earth a "sway control device" has to do with a topic headed "WDH"? 

Some WDH include a sway control device. The Andersen Hitch has a friction bush between the ball and the hitch. Obviously it does not replace a device designed for that purpose, but every bit helps. When the load is taken off the ball I can't rotate the plate, even with a pretty decent hammer. Under the huge compression forces when it is tensioned that resistance would also be substantially increased.

iThen there is the benefit of the WDH itself, whatever type. By replacing that lost weight on the front axle and reducing the weight on the rear axle, it improves the understeer caused by the front end being too light, and thus reducing the tyre grip.

However, I believe the point Gundog makes is that Toyota engineers believe that a tow vehicle lighter than what it tows can be made acceptably safe if using a sway control device.

So if a 3020kg tow vehicle with a 2980kg van behing is considered acceptable, the addition of a sway control device must make it safer. To me that is obvious. 2980 and 3020? 2900 and 3100?

There is no specific point that a rig changes from safe to unsafe. It is all just degrees of being less safe compared to not towing at all, and what we consider acceptable.

 


 Hi Stephen, not sure what you're trying to say here, but anybody who knows anything about weights understands that, if safety is of any concern ALWAYS the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van.

Not Negotiable, with some experts saying that the difference should be around 30%.

You say that weight must be restored to the car's front axle to "improve the understeer . " but if taking a miserable 150kg (350kg x 0.43%) off the front axle causes these problems, the car simply is too small. Not negotiable.

With a 350kg towball weight my car runs 1350kg on the front axle. How much weight do you consider to be enough? (NO WDH)

No need for gimmicks such as WDH, sway control or any of the other garbage that is marketed to the gullible. My experience whilst travelling and talking with others shows that the vast majority of users of WDHs have absolutely no idea what it does or how it does it, simply saying "The salesman said I needed one" or "My neighbour's brother's sister-in-law's Great Grandfather has been using one for years, and says you've gotta have one".

"Get a brain. Get a life. Think for yourself" is my advice to these sorts of people.

A well matched car and van, correctly set up, needs none of these fancy gadgets, which are little more than gimmicks.

Get a bigger car or a smaller van. "Problem" solved. Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 18th of February 2024 09:39:49 AM

__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 624
Date:
Permalink Closed

Yobarr,
Just wondering how your Valiant was for stability when towing your 3,000kg van?

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1050
Date:
Permalink Closed

yobarr wrote:
With a 350kg towball weight my car runs 1350kg on the front axle. How much weight do you consider to be enough? (NO WDH)

 That is actually a very good question and I don't know the answer. Do you?

What I do know is that the weight on the road determines the grip. More weight, more grip and very close to a direct relationship. So when a heavy towball download causes the rear of the vehicle to sag and the front to rise, there is a commensurate change in tyre grip from front to back.

With less weight on the front, understeer increases. Front brakes become less effective due to the wheels locking (ABS activating) much sooner than on the back. Air bags and heavier springs mask the problem so it looks OK, but is not.

You said ..

"but if taking a miserable 150kg (350kg x 0.43%) off the front axle causes these problems, the car simply is too small."

Presumably your calculation is on the basis of a 350kg towball load. You are overlooking two facts. The first obvious one is that 350kg towball load has added 500kg to the rear axle. So that is now a 650kg differential. How much extra grip will the rear have and how much less will the front have?

But that is only the starting point ... at rest in the driveway. Handling performance here matters little (or zero). It is what happens on the open road that counts. As I have said in previous threads, it is the dynamic nature of the WDH that makes it so good.

When the dynamics of a road surface (i.e. an undulation or bump) cause the rear springs to compress, the WDH automatically tensions further. More weight gets removed from the rear and added to the front. When past the undulation and the rear springs decompress, the WDH automatically reduces tension, quite possibly to zero. So the rig rides much more stiffly, vastly reducing porpoising. The front wheels get that extra grip when needed.

Back to your question ... how much weight is good? I believe the guideline of returning half the lost weight back to the front is a good starting point, and can be done with a tape measure. But that is a starting point. Doing it at a weighbridge then shows the actual weights, but driving on the road will tell you if that adjustment should be improved. And that will depend on the vehicle and the load carried as well.

 



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1850
Date:
Permalink Closed

Yobarr said " My experience whilst travelling and talking with others shows that the vast majority of users of WDHs have absolutely no idea what it does or how it does it, "

I seriously doubt that you listen to anyone opinion based on you responses here, I think you like the sound of your own voice.

Please name these people who suggest 30% heavier ratio.



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1222
Date:
Permalink Closed

Since Yobarr has produced no evidence, formulae or workable theories to support his assertion that a WDH reduces the tow cars weight, I can only conclude that he can't. His only claim has been basically, HR says its so. So he must be right.

All the physics evidence says the car weight does not change. Watseas' calculations show it does not change .

Conclusion. A wdh does change towball load imposed on the car. 

End of story.

Alan

 



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Gundog wrote:

Yobarr said " My experience whilst travelling and talking with others shows that the vast majority of users of WDHs have absolutely no idea what it does or how it does it, "

I seriously doubt that you listen to anyone opinion based on you responses here, I think you like the sound of your own voice.

Please name these people who suggest 30% heavier ratio.


 Hi Graham, Since I am tiring of talking to a brick wall I was going to ignore your request, and I can't be bothered searching my records for the name of the organisation that suggests 30% more car weight.

However, I do recall that RV Books, written by Collyn Rivers who has well over 50 years experience with weights and dynamics, and was a design engineer for a large motor vehicle manufacturer has advice on this.

Can  I suggest that you purchase and read these books, as you may well be tempted to withdraw your  head from the sand.

Collyn suggests that, for inexperienced caravanners, the weight of the van should be no more than 80% of the car's weight. 

Depending on your mathematical ability you may realise that this means that the car is thus 25% heavier than the van? Simple stuff.

For more experienced caravanners that ratio can be reduced .

Regarding your reference to my post that "the vast majority of users of WDH have absolutely no idea what it does or how it does it", could I respectfully point out to you that the comments from these people are NOT "opinion" but simply an admission by them that they  using a WDH ONLY as a result of friendly "advice" from friends and neighbours, or from a salesman with a vested interest in peddling a piece of unnecessary junk.

This MAY clear things up for you? Cheers.

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 18th of February 2024 11:30:22 AM

__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Brenda and Alan wrote:

Since Yobarr has produced no evidence, formulae or workable theories to support his assertion that a WDH reduces the tow cars weight, I can only conclude that he can't. His only claim has been basically, HR says its so. So he must be right.

All the physics evidence says the car weight does not change. Watseas' calculations show it does not change .

Conclusion. A wdh does change towball load imposed on the car. 

End of story.

Alan


       9D62E05C-CE7C-42D9-9FC8-DA1B327C34F1.png



Attachments
__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1850
Date:
Permalink Closed

yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:

Yobarr said " My experience whilst travelling and talking with others shows that the vast majority of users of WDHs have absolutely no idea what it does or how it does it, "

I seriously doubt that you listen to anyone opinion based on you responses here, I think you like the sound of your own voice.

Please name these people who suggest 30% heavier ratio.


 Hi Graham, Since I am tiring of talking to a brick wall I was going to ignore your request, and I can't be bothered searching my records for the name of the organisation that suggests 30% more car weight.

However, I do recall that RV Books, written by Collyn Rivers who has well over 50 years experience with weights and dynamics, and was a design engineer for a large motor vehicle manufacturer has advice on this.

Can  I suggest that you purchase and read these books, as you may well be tempted to withdraw your  head from the sand.

Collyn suggests that, for inexperienced caravanners, the weight of the van should be no more than 80% of the car's weight. 

Depending on your mathematical ability you may realise that this means that the car is thus 25% heavier than the van? Simple stuff.

For more experienced caravanners that ratio can be reduced .

Regarding your reference to my post that "the vast majority of users of WDH have absolutely no idea what it does or how it does it", could I respectfully point out to you that the comments from these people are NOT "opinion" but simply an admission by them that their using a WDH was ONLY a result of friendly "advice" from friends and neighbours, or from a salesman with a vested interest in peddling a piece of unnecessary junk.

This MAY clear things up for you? Cheers.

 


 How did I know that Collyns name would appear, I have had many interactions with him in the past and basically some of his writtings are FOS, just like another self appointed expert from Victoria.

There are ways you could add sway control to caravan without resorting to a WDH, to facilitate towing a van heavier than the tug.



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 8498
Date:
Permalink Closed

Gundog wrote:

 How did I know that Collyns name would appear, I have had many interactions with him in the past and basically some of his writings are FOS, just like another self-appointed expert from Victoria.

 

GD, if you are referring to Colin Young; he is not self-appointed check his qualifications - Automotive engineer instrumental in much of the legislation both in USA and Australia - possibly the most qualified suspension and brake engineer in Australia 



__________________

Possum; AKA:- Ali El-Aziz Mohamed Gundawiathan

Sent from my imperial66 typewriter using carrier pigeon, message sticks and smoke signals.



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Gundog wrote:


 How did I know that Collyns name would appear, I have had many interactions with him in the past and basically some of his writings are FOS , just like another self appointed expert from Victoria.

collyn Ruvers

There are ways you could add sway control to caravan without resorting to a WDH, to facilitate towing a van heavier than the tug.


 Deary deary me, Graham, haven't you worked yourself into a real tizzy? 

Happy to ridicule EXPERT advice from a world-renowned engineer, author of many books on weights and dynamics, who has over 50 years experience in the fields of weights and dynamics, along with guided missile power systems and many other technical fields.

What are your qualifications? Did you not run a servo, or some such?

There is absolutely no need to denigrate others simply because their factual advice is beyond your apparent range of comprehension.

Again I iterate that there is NO WAY KNOWN that ANY vehicle can safely tow a PIG trailer that weighs more than that tow vehicle. NO WAY. Simple physics, and explained many times, in detail. 

The "self-appointed expert from Victoria" that you refer to may well be John Cadogan? 

If so, although his manner certainly can be abrasive, he's forgotten more about weights and dynamics than you're ever likely to know.

Could I respectfully suggest that rather than continually dispute facts provided in good faith by those who know what they're talking about that you instead purchase and read Collyn's books?

Who knows, you may even learn something? Good luck with that though. To learn, one must have an open mind.Cheers

FE078B60-529A-4F2D-BF2C-EDB045A7C5AC.png



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 18th of February 2024 08:50:25 PM

Attachments
__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1222
Date:
Permalink Closed

yobarr wrote:       9D62E05C-CE7C-42D9-9FC8-DA1B327C34F1.png

 That's very convincing evidence I don't think. Just shows that you don't want to understand the maths and physics involved in this discussion.

Collyn Rivers was not a design engineer for a motor company. He was employed for his journalist skills most probably to write up reports etc. As for as I know he has no engineering qualifications.

Alan



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Deleted.


-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 19th of February 2024 01:18:50 PM

__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Brenda and Alan wrote:
yobarr wrote:       9D62E05C-CE7C-42D9-9FC8-DA1B327C34F1.png

 That's very convincing evidence I don't think. Just shows that you don't want to understand the maths and physics involved in this discussion.

Collyn Rivers was not a design engineer for a motor company. He was employed for his journalist skills most probably to write up reports etc. As for as I know he has no engineering qualifications.

Alan


72702D64-934B-45EB-A4AE-D0848DDE11F6.png 



Attachments
__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1222
Date:
Permalink Closed

yobarr wrote:
72702D64-934B-45EB-A4AE-D0848DDE11F6.png 


 This seems to be getting off topic, but I suppose it's easier than coming up with mathematical or physics proof of your assertions. 

Please supply author and publication for verification.

Also supply Collyns' qualifications as an engineer.

Alan



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1850
Date:
Permalink Closed

Collyn was trained in the RAF as a ground radar engineer, part of his Bio says he was a research engineer from 1959-60. In what field I have no idea. Basically he's a journalist and translator, often journalist don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 5420
Date:
Permalink Closed

Brenda and Alan wrote:
yobarr wrote:
72702D64-934B-45EB-A4AE-D0848DDE11F6.png 


 This seems to be getting off topic, but I suppose it's easier than coming up with mathematical or physics proof of your assertions. 

Please supply author and publication for verification.

Also supply Collyns' qualifications as an engineer.

Alan


 Without inferring that it is beyond  your range of abilities, coukd I suggest that you might like to do your own research instead of demanding that I help you?

Simply ask Mr Google "Collyn Rivers" and much i formation is available.

But please don't come back bleating that you can't find what you want, or that you do find what you don't want. 

And at the risk of confusing you, could I point out to you that it was not I who steered this "off topic"?

P.S Have you managed to contact HR to inform them of their misunderstandings regarding the effects of a WDH on towball weight, or are you more intent on continuing to throw  Red Herrings into the discussion, further confusing those who simply are trying to understand their weights?



__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1077
Date:
Permalink Closed

Brenda and Alan wrote:
yobarr wrote:
72702D64-934B-45EB-A4AE-D0848DDE11F6.png 


 This seems to be getting off topic, but I suppose it's easier than coming up with mathematical or physics proof of your assertions. 

Please supply author and publication for verification.

Also supply Collyns' qualifications as an engineer.

Alan


 I know Collyn Rivers and have had many discussions with him in the past on another forum.

He is a knowledgeable and respected source of information in the RV industry and a prominent author of RV books. Another acquaintance of mine, Chrissy Eustace, wrote an autobiography on Collyn and I suggest you look it up and read it. You may find it informative as well as his books.

I just wonder what qualifies you to question his credentials.  



__________________

Monty. RV Dealer.



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2027
Date:
Permalink Closed

Brenda and Alan wrote:

yobarr wrote:
72702D64-934B-45EB-A4AE-D0848DDE11F6.png 


 This seems to be getting off topic, but I suppose it's easier than coming up with mathematical or physics proof of your assertions. 

Please supply author and publication for verification.

Also supply Collyns' qualifications as an engineer.

Alan






it slips my mind you may have stated previously but can you supply your qualifications?

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 75
Date:
Permalink Closed

yobarr wrote:

P.S Have you managed to contact HR to inform them of their misunderstandings regarding the effects of a WDH on towball weight, or are you more intent on continuing to throw  Red Herrings into the discussion, further confusing those who simply are trying to understand their weights?


 when they bleat "hayman reese".


homework.jpeg



cheers



Attachments
__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1480
Date:
Permalink Closed

collyn.JPG



Attachments
__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 75
Date:
Permalink Closed

Plain Truth wrote:

collyn.JPG


 now show me where he bleated "hayman reese".

entertained.jpeg



cheers



Attachments
__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1480
Date:
Permalink Closed

basil.JPG



Attachments
__________________
«First  <  17 8 9 10  >  Last»  | Page of 10  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
Purchase Grey Nomad bumper stickers Read our daily column, the Nomad News The Grey Nomad's Guidebook