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Post Info TOPIC: Will travelling in the Alice be possible in the future


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Will travelling in the Alice be possible in the future
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 It is being reported that permanent residents are leaving the town due to lawlessness

https://www.9news.com.au/national/alice-springs-crime-crisis-mayor-calls-for-intervention-federal-level/18eab56e-f418-465c-9f2a-96863b330d0f



-- Edited by RickJ on Tuesday 24th of January 2023 12:11:19 PM

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RickJ wrote:

 It is being reported that permanent residents are leaving the town due to lawlessness

https://www.9news.com.au/national/alice-springs-crime-crisis-mayor-calls-for-intervention-federal-level/18eab56e-f418-465c-9f2a-96863b330d0f


        Another story about the total disregard of our country's laws by certain groups of individuals. Then today I read of two people dying in an accident in Sydney while their stolen car was being pursued by Police. Whose fault is this? What can be done to prevent such incidents! Cheers

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It's dreadful ....... and whilst reactive responses may help to put a lid on things in the short term, they alone will not help to resolve anything in the longer term. Only dealing with the long term issues in a meaningful way will stop these sorts of outbursts & behaviours arising again & again.

That's why the Prime minister doesn't want to send in the Federal Police......... but he may end up having no choice if the kids persist with upping the ante. These are kids out of control crying out for appropriate limits to be set.
It would be a difficult balance for the feds. If they don't get it right it could make things worse in the long term, just as previous interventions have done. But someone has to do it. I have little doubt that among all these young marauders there will be more than a few who whilst excited by their & their friends activities, will also be scared out of their wits. Being out of control is not a nice feeling. Having experienced first hand a major incident with young kids out of control I recall the bravado & the damage, but I also recall the screaming & the fear which eventually resolved when caring adults were able to take back control.

The pressure is on the National government to act, & I'm sure they know that & not just in Alice Springs - what is less certain is the most productive way to do that without pouring fuel on the long term fire. Without wishing to engage in a further debate about the Voice, I do believe that if there were already a trusting line of communication such as I believe implementation of the Voice will bring, we would have more strings to our bow to deal with this sort of stuff. (Please don't try to turn this into another Voice argument, I'm just expressing what I think & don't need shouting down).

IMHO in the current circumstances there probably need to be urgent consultation between the authorities & community elders to identify ringleaders, followed by swift action to safely take them off the streets to help defuse the situation. But if that is all that happens it will only be a temporary fix if not followed up with appropriate actions - & that much depends upon 'relationships' between authorities & community. 

Just like good parenting, punishing whilst giving a caring message is vital. The kids need to see that. Heavy handed reprisals will make things worse. Very difficult line to walk for all involved, not helped by the 'round'em up & beat the crap out of em, show'em who's boss' calls for action , enticing though that may be.



-- Edited by Cuppa on Tuesday 24th of January 2023 01:43:46 PM

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Cuppa said

 

Without wishing to engage in a further debate about the Voice, I do believe that if there were already a trusting line of communication such as I believe implementation of the Voice will bring, we would have more strings to our bow to deal with this sort of stuff. (Please don't try to turn this into another Voice argument, I'm just expressing what I think & don't need shouting down).

-

The original post was more aligned to travel and safety in Alice Springs

If you did not wish to involve yourself in further debate about the voice then why bring it up.

 

In reply to the OP,

Although at the moment I dont have a van, if I did I would be very hesitant to visit that town. It must be bad if as reported the local residents are leaving.



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Ivan 01 wrote:

Cuppa said

 

Without wishing to engage in a further debate about the Voice, I do believe that if there were already a trusting line of communication such as I believe implementation of the Voice will bring, we would have more strings to our bow to deal with this sort of stuff. (Please don't try to turn this into another Voice argument, I'm just expressing what I think & don't need shouting down).

-

The original post was more aligned to travel and safety in Alice Springs

If you did not wish to involve yourself in further debate about the voice then why bring it up.

 

In reply to the OP,

Although at the moment I dont have a van, if I did I would be very hesitant to visit that town. It must be bad if as reported the local residents are leaving.


 Very simply Ivan for the reason I stated, with relevance to the topic. Lets leave it that eh?



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Yes sir, completely understood.

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I have spent many years in the NT since the late 1990s and Alice Springs, like most of the other NT towns has a transient population. People come, people go. Most of the towns have a pretty wild side and the crime rate has always been high.

I think one of the major problems is the lack of housing for some of the population. Houses are constructed and houses get wrecked. The people who have wrecked the houses get booted out and go and live with family and the same seems to happen there. More people get booted out and homelessness escalates. What happens then is that town camps are set up and the "long grassers" move in. There is drunkenness, fights over alcohol and general lawlessness. This is an environment that kids are subjected to. As a result they roam the streets and the trouble escalates.

There is no easy fix. The then opposition leader Tony Abbott came back with his report in 2011 which is identical to the one being heard now. I know it is easy to say but there has to be a proper plan. It is not just a matter of throwing money at the problem, that has already been done with billions being spent. The people in the community, the elders and the indigenous politicians are perhaps the only ones who can take control of this situation. Bringing in heaps of police, military etc will only be a short fix until civil unrest breaks out even harder.

It is not just Alice Springs where this is happening. Whilst travelling around over the past few months it is sad to see the number of homeless people, living in tents and swags as they have no other option. I see them with their kids and think, what hope have they got.

Now is the time for level headed communication, not skull busting or mass lock ups. I know from the experiences I have had in the NT Courts, the elders hold heavy sway if they are consulted and brought in to assist. I have seen elders straighten out many a young hoodlum to the point of tears who  only minutes before has given a judge a mouthful. If given an opportunity they can turn things around. There are many success stories in the NT among indigenous people all due to "Aunty or Uncle Someone" taking over.

I recall in Northern Queensland there was a Murri Court system. Young offenders would appear in court and then their matters would be adjourned to the Murri Court where elders would counsel the offender. I went along as the offender's representative and expected a token lecture would happen for the young offender. They would get a savage blast, given community jobs to do with a timeline and then have to report back to the elders. God help anyone who hadn't got their jobs done. They would then go back before the Judge and the elder would give a report. In just about all the cases it worked as the recidivist numbers fell dramatically.

Having said all of that I think the NT and Alice Springs is a safe place to travel as long as one takes the same precautions as you would if stopping in a capital city. There are criminals and thieves everywhere.

 



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DMaxer wrote:
Having said all of that I think the NT and Alice Springs is a safe place to travel as long as one takes the same precautions as you would if stopping in a capital city. There are criminals and thieves everywhere.

 


 I thought most of your post was quite helpful, but can't agree with the last paragraph quoted above. Yes there are criminals and thieves everywhere, but some locations (Alice Springs in this case), the risk is far greater.

I keep my van in an open driveway. For years there has not been a problem. Maybe tonight my luck will change and it will be taken or broken into. But what would be the risk of doing the same in Alice Springs? How long would the typical trouble free run be in Alice Springs?

My insurance takes location into account when assessing risk. I wonder what it would be if I said Alice Springs.

 



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Not sure if it is a new thing. Perhaps increasingly out of control.

I vividly recall a trip of ours through the Alice.  As we were driving slowly along the divided highway part of the CBD bypass (I think) a young First Nations girl staggered out of the median strip shrubs right in front of the Patrol.  Fortunately, we were going slowly as gawking tourists do, so I was able to stop.  Lo & behold an older local came out brandishing a blood great stick & chased her off the road, over the fence and down the side road.   What a great introduction to The Alice!

Later, I was at the local liquor barn to pick up wet groceries, and a very big First Nations guy in front of me ordered a carton.  Imagine my surprise when he was handed a carton full of casks of sweet white wine & peeled off a few notes from a great roll of $50s, threw the carton onto his shoulder with practiced ease & went out to his brand new Cruiser Troopie.

Later as I was enjoying watching people spend their hard earned at the Casino (I don't gamble but like watching) I noticed the well dressed First Nations lady beside me, also with a whopping stack of $50 notes pick up her drink & wander off to the tables.

 

Clearly there are some doing very well and others maybe not so.

 

I actually felt quite safe both in our CP & wandering around the CBD mall, my major complaint was that I had difficulty getting good photos of the Todd riverbank Ghost Gums/Red Gums? (Big Trees) because of all the locals sitting in circles under virtually every tree passing round silver bags & eating takeaways out of white paper bags from the local hot bread shop.   When they were finished they just wandered off leaving all the white bags & silver casks lying about.  We of course are far more civilized & just drink bottled wine out of glasses in a circle under a van awning at happy hour, eating nibbles from terribly tasteful plates & we pick up our rubbish, don't we.

We were told by a School Teacher living there that many of the young scruffy guys about town actually walked with a limp.  He claimed that they were trouble makers who were speared in the leg as a disciplinary measure & kicked off the community.  Left to get up to mischief in the local township, in this case Alice.  Far more settled in the Communities he claimed.

 

But then, when we were camped at a dry town where we weren't even allowed to drink alcohol outside our van, I found the local lads far more interesting to chat to at night when they came off their local property for a coke & burger, than the kids of the same age at our local Brisbane shopping centre.



-- Edited by Cupie on Tuesday 24th of January 2023 07:34:44 PM



-- Edited by Cupie on Tuesday 24th of January 2023 07:35:57 PM

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to send in AFP or the ADF would be like a red flag to a bull.

a lot of the problem comes from a few "outside" people filling the young kids heads with the thoughts that we whitees have stolen the land an we should go back to where we came from even if we were born here, we should go back to where our ancestors came from ,i bet they would miss all the trimmings we have brought with us. this is a big country with a lot of open spaces

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I feel sorry for the small business owners, continually replacing broken glass and damaged fittings inside their shops.

Saw on the news tonight that the local bakery had been broken into 41 times in the last 3 years, would hate to see his insurance bill.

When we were there in 2015, there large groups on every corner of green grass, like outside KFC or McDonalds, and was told by 

a local that they cried 'Racism' when they were told to move on. The law was on their side, as if there large groups of whites sitting there, they weren't spoken too.

Very sad for the people and businesses, there is no simple answer to it for towns like Alice, Fitzroy, Derby or Halls Creek etc.



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It will boil down to insurance. Maybe when we renew our car insurance, something similar to Russia. Insurance companies will not insure vessels which venture into Russian maritime limits.

 

So drive within the Economic Zone of the equivalent of 200 nautical miles of a town & you have no cover.

 

Problem clarified.

 

If you have deep pockets to pay for your losses not an issue. Otherwise simply don't go into these areas.

 

No different to building on a floodplain.



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Put it this way, if you didn't go to Alice Springs, would you be missing much, not really?

Yes we've been there & to all the other trouble spots as well.

I'm only talking about the town not the surrounding natural features.

Why risk it, there are plenty of other fabulous places to go in our country without putting up with that kind of sh*t?


 



-- Edited by 86GTS on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 05:32:37 AM

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86GTS wrote:

Put it this way, if you didn't go to Alice Springs, would you be missing much, not really?

Yes we've been there & to all the other trouble spots as well.

I'm only talking about the town not the surrounding natural features.

Why risk it, there are plenty of other fabulous places to go in our country without putting up with that kind of sh*t?


 



-- Edited by 86GTS on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 05:32:37 AM


 Yes in theory many of us could say yes just not go there.

Would that help the Alice Springs Community. Nah I dont think so.

We all are aware of the huge distances between any settlements in out back Aus and if travelling south to north or north to south Alice Springs is almost a *must stop* point to replenish fuel and supplies. The visit is probably more essential if traversing east to west or vica verca.

I spent a short time in Alice not long before I retired. I was only working there for 6 weeks and that was in 2016 but the problem was massive then.

I still communicate with people I know up there and their plight is very real. The aboriginals for the main part are out of control and even much worse than when I was there. The violence is not only towards non aboriginals as they are extremely violent toward their own people but you may risk serious injury or worse by even just going to shops.

The Aboriginal youth no longer listen to their elders as they are being guided by organised do gooders that are telling the youths and the young ones that the land is theirs and no one has any right to order them to do anything. 
The police are hog tied in regulation that divides law into two groups. This again is brought about by this same group of do gooders that for some reason seem to have an incessant need to have this divide.

The race card is not the way to achieve anything but again that card is a valuable tool to be played under direction from this wayward group of mischief makers that are growing in number and telling unknowing Australians via schools and the steps of parliaments and just by their presence in some aboriginal communities. One needs to ask what are the real attractions for some members of these mischief maker groups to spend long periods in remote communities.

The police need to be permitted to actually police the laws of the state or territory.

The governments need to clamp down severely on alcohol and drugs in these areas.

One set of laws for all Australians should be reintroduced and those in authority given support to police these laws.

The residents in all these communities throughout Australia need to abide by the state laws and not to adopt disruptive suggestions by wayward groups that seem hell bent on dividing Australia.



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This ABC article is, I believe, worthy of a thorough read. It talks about the problems which afflict the town, written by someone who lives there . It also talks about what it's like & what is needed. A warts & all article which is, I suggest, worthy of more than just a brief glance through for anyone wanting a better understanding than only the emotive headlines convey. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-24/anthony-albansese-visits-alice-springs/101887092?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web



-- Edited by Cuppa on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 08:59:01 AM

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I am confident that the present Government will initiate good policy and not resort to confrontation and policing as the only solution. There are good people on both sides like Pat Dodson, Senator McCarthy, Linda Burney and Jacinta Price as well as the former Minister Ken Wyatt. In addition there are non politicians, people like Noel Pearson and Marcia Langton just to name a couple. These are the people who can facilitate communication between various groups and begin what will be a very long process. There is great divide not just between indigenous Australians and non Indigenous Australians but also inside each group. There are sal****er people, plains people, desert people, river people all with their own views and history. There is no one size fits all.

We have an opportunity to start making Australia a fairer and more inclusive country. We can't undo what has been done by others before us but we can shape out future. If is just left to sort itself out or the only response is mass arrests and military rule it will escalate. Given time, our major trading partner in the north will appear with a kind offer to build houses, provide health care plus a few handouts a la Solomon Islands style that would just fracture Australia.

Everyone has an opinion, me included, but indigenous people have to be given the opportunity and resources to do it their way. Our way has not worked, let them have an opportunity to put forward their thoughts and possible solutions.

 



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and from the same link : Aboriginal councils saying the restrictions on alcohol sales is racist

whatever the solution is it is unfortunately based on race !

quarantining/restricting welfare payments was one suggestion but remember the ruckus that was raised on this forum when it was mentioned in the same breath as the OAP no one wants to be told what to spend their money on not even their government welfare money!

alcohol, drugs, petrol,spray paint ect a problem in all societies from the outback to bright big city lights

as mentioned earlier in the right circles there is no shortage of cash were does it come from, someone is making a lot of money from the aboriginal industry.

education could be the answer, but how do you educate the young an still keep them connected to their culture?

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It's a real bugger tip toeing through "broken glass" but it will never change because no one will ever be big enough to pick up the big required broom !

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dogbox wrote:

and from the same link : Aboriginal councils saying the restrictions on alcohol sales is racist

whatever the solution is it is unfortunately based on race !

quarantining/restricting welfare payments was one suggestion but remember the ruckus that was raised on this forum when it was mentioned in the same breath as the OAP no one wants to be told what to spend their money on not even their government welfare money!

alcohol, drugs, petrol,spray paint ect a problem in all societies from the outback to bright big city lights

as mentioned earlier in the right circles there is no shortage of cash were does it come from, someone is making a lot of money from the aboriginal industry.

education could be the answer, but how do you educate the young an still keep them connected to their culture?


 Yes, just another example of the racist card being played. If only the people encouraging aboriginals to play it, would work toward a United Australia.

The problem we have is basically two generations old. It will take two generations at the least to show any direction in the positive.

The problem is not solely in the aboriginal community but it is only within the aboriginal community when it comes to entitlement. No one is promoting entitlement to non aboriginals facing courts or any form of penalty. Here is the problem.
To anyone that is promoting entitlement to one group is unfortunately directly responsible for the division. While there exists this division then falsely perceived entitlement will always be at the root of the problem.

Albanese rushes to Alice Springs and as usual the media are in tow to capture him in his Arkubra hat and jeans in his usual pose to show support.

Did he go out onto the streets last night and witness first hand what was happening. I dont think so.

The footage I saw on the Media this morning was an oval table of aboriginals at a meeting with him. Fair enough, most definitely include aboriginals who may be able to help but was there a spot at the table for those business owners that have been broken into repeatedly. Was there a police representative at the table.?

Not that I could see and not that was reported.

Well then we could ask why he was observed to be trying to get into the Alice unnoticed. My suggestion is that he avoids confrontation by those which may consider his visit a waste of time and without him facing all views he gets to have his *two bob each way*

So the result of the meeting was to prevent the sale of alcohol for two days of a week and then only sell alcohol after 3 pm and until 9 pm.

Wait on though, these alcohol sales are restricted to one item. Now thats great Anthony Albo but it was reported only a couple of days ago that one item meant a carton of casks etc. The intention was good but the practical interpretation suits the alcoholic and we should not forget the publican or bottle shop manager whose main purpose is to make a profit.

Those groups that we may see sitting down on the Todd or in more recent times in other parts of the town have almost an endless supply of alcohol to easily cover the two days that alcohol sales are banned.

Above I said it may take at least two generations to make any affect on the current situation. Yes, what should be considered that the children out there breaking into 70 year old womens houses and threatening with a knife or similar actually stood no chance as from the day they were conceived they were under the influence of alcohol, drugs or both.

The presence of the Army would be confronting to most people. The ADF have been in Alice before with as I believe, some improvement, but the situation again worsened when they were removed. Does this suggest that law and order at lest worked, only if temporary.

Sales of alcohol and drugs to indigenous communities has been an industry in this country for years. Those supplying these products have enjoyed good profits.

Maybe instead of a *sneak peak* at an oval table by our leader he might have been better employed to stay for a while and actually see what really is happening.

As usual the reporting of crime in Alice Springs will die a natural death on the media and with that many Australians will think that Albo fixed the problem. There will be a side track with the current situation in Qld and other states to a lesser extent.

Then in the news media tomorrow we will have the usual turn out of those burning the Aussie flag along with those miscreants which support this disgraceful act.

Just to get away from Alice Springs for a moment, it is worthy of discussion how successful the cashless card has been in places like Ceduna. Alcohol was a massive problem and reportedly, the improvement was out of sight. The female aboriginals openly claimed it was working. They could buy food for their children and families and domestic violence dropped dramatically.

It sounds like a good system to me

But wait once again, it worked for five years and in SA they have a change of those in charge and the card is being abolished.

Why is these situations so political. If something is working then change is not necessary.

As always follow the money trail and forget the peoples welfare.

https://www.dss.gov.au/families-and-children/programmes-services/welfare-conditionality/cashless-debit-card-overview



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I don't quite understand the entitlement you say that only applies to indigenous people when they face courts or the penalties they receive.

Would you be kind enough to explain that to me please.



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this problem is not confined to ALICE SPRINGS it is happening everywhere the age of entitlement is here.

the other day was in a Woolworth store(not in NT) a family came in the boy about 14-15 yrs started to load up his backpack the two young girls 6-7 yrs started opening biscuits, eat a couple drop packet open another. mother wandering around not saying anything filling her bag, while all focus is on kids she walks out. police called the young lad said, to police what are you going to do about it. stop wasting my time ! at some point the cost of these actions has to be paided for probably by other shoppers, till the shop has to close because there are more free shoppers than paying customers.
as stated at least 2 generations if not more will be required to change the mentality, and there are too many people who benefit from this behavior that whatever is tried will have some serious objectors.

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Something to ponder while many of us enjoy our lunch. Watching them both will take up 12 minutes of time.

 It appears the cashless card has overwhelming support from aboriginals. Go figure what begins to work and what doesnt.

https://youtu.be/fb9_OaaKOdo


https://youtu.be/4cyLEgvXwvk




-- Edited by RickJ on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 12:32:04 PM

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Who in the right mind would pay any attention to anything introduced by those two Murdoch hacks. 

Didn't get past the first five seconds on either link when I saw who was appearing.  Just a pair of LNP toe rags.

I can now fully understand why you hold the views that you do Rick. What do you do when these two aren't on, listen to 2GB.



-- Edited by DMaxer on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 12:49:06 PM



-- Edited by DMaxer on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 12:49:35 PM

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Oh dear,play the man again



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Hi Craig. Great to hear from you.



-- Edited by DMaxer on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 12:49:06 PM



-- Edited by DMaxer on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 01:12:18 PM

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DMaxer wrote:

Didn't get past the first five seconds on either link when I saw who was appearing.  Just a pair of LNP toe rags.



What about the mayor of Alice Springs? He had plenty to say and was given open questions.

You really are showing your closed mind. Tell me what is wrong with what he said?



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Here is a photo of your unbiased hero taken last year at LNP HQ as the result became apparentPM.jpg



-- Edited by DMaxer on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 01:53:00 PM

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Sorry AWL I didn't answer your question. I got too hysterical looking at that photo again. 

I understand his point of view and he is entitled to make it. Others have a contrary view and likewise they are entitled to their view.

Had he had a different point of view I bet he would not have been on that program.



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I have no doubt of his bias to the right, just as the ABC is to the left, as you are. If you only see/hear one side you can only know part of the story.

Apart from deflecting the discussion, why not comment on what the mayor of Alice Springs had to say.

 

Edit: I see we posted at the same time. Do you ever watch/listen to other than left wing sources to understand a different point of view. My media sources every day include left and right leaning. Every media source is biased. So if you only focus on one side you miss a lot.

So what is wrong with what the mayor said?

 



-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 01:56:40 PM

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DMaxer wrote:

Who in the right mind would pay any attention to anything introduced by those two Murdoch hacks. 

Didn't get past the first five seconds on either link when I saw who was appearing.  Just a pair of LNP toe rags.

I can now fully understand why you hold the views that you do Rick. What do you do when these two aren't on, listen to 2GB.



-- Edited by DMaxer on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 12:49:06 PM



-- Edited by DMaxer on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 12:49:35 PM


 Well, you certainly got that right!

Well said, I agree with your thinking about the said post

Cheers



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