check out the new remote control Jockey Wheel SmartBar Solid GPS Caravan Tracking System Powertec Caframo fans RF Shop
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Landcruiser 300. Sheep in wolf's clothing?


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 4107
Date:
Landcruiser 300. Sheep in wolf's clothing?


As with most sales advertising there seems to be a bit of smoke and mirrors involved in the marketing of the new Landcruiser 300, and its claimed 3500kg towing capacity. Whilst there can be no disputing that this is a lovely car for those who can afford it, and that its new V6 engine develops around 30kw more power than the previous V8, the towing limitations  perhaps need to be explained. The GCM (Gross Combination Mass or total allowable weight of car and van) has been reduced from 6850kg  to only 6750kg, and GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass, or total allowable weight of car, including towball weight) has been reduced to only 3280kg It needs to be noted that this GVM is only 80kg more than that of a Ford Ranger, for example. Sadly, the previously low rear axle carrying capacity has been further reduced to only 1930kg.  All this on a car that tares at around 2550kg .  Still the wheelbase is only 2850mm, while towball overhang  (distance from rear axle to hitchpoint.) means that with the  generally accepted 10% towball weight a 350kg towball weight puts over 500kg onto the lightweight rear axle. The ever popular McHitch increases that weight transfer by increasing TBO, and the universal cure-all WDH simply multiplies the problem. This lightweight rear axle means that under "normal" towing conditions this car cannot safely tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer (caravan).                                                                                                                                                 When challenged about claimed towing capacities the "out" for manufacturers is that the car can indeed tow the claimed 3500kg, but only as a DOG trailer.   Because many members may not have a good understanding of weights I thought it prudent to bring these limitations to their attention before they part with big piles of their hard-earned, only to have it all end in tears. There is no doubt that, like its predecessor the LC200, the LC300 is a big, powerful and luxurious vehicle, and will be bought by many people, but its towing limitations need to be understood. Cheers





-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 28th of November 2022 11:29:01 AM

__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 7623
Date:
Sheep in wolf's clothing?


Additionally with the price of diesel now being around fifty cents/litre above petrol, the Y62 Patrol would be a more prudent buy.

__________________

Possum; AKA:- Ali El-Aziz Mohamed Gundawiathan

Sent from my imperial66 typewriter using carrier pigeon, message sticks and smoke signals.



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 4107
Date:

Possum3 wrote:

Additionally with the price of diesel now being around fifty cents/litre above petrol, the Y62 Patrol would be a more prudent buy.


The Y62 is a better car all round but doesn't have the "pose" appeal of the LC300. It is, however, is one of few cars available that can safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Cheers



__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2561
Date:

yobarr wrote:
Possum3 wrote:

Additionally with the price of diesel now being around fifty cents/litre above petrol, the Y62 Patrol would be a more prudent buy.


The Y62 is a better car all round but doesn't have the "pose" appeal of the LC300. It is, however, is one of few cars available that can safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Cheers


 I know which I'd rather own when it comes time to sell/trade, and it isn't the Nissan no



__________________
Bill B


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 557
Date:

Well it's black and white if you want to tow a heavy van. The Y62 can do it, the LC300 can't. In that case, resale value is irrelevant.

Yobarr, why don't you post the figures with a heading that shows it specifially relates to Land Cruiser 300. The figures are useful and members may more easily refer to them that way. However I suggest just removing your opinion on WDH because your message will too easily turn into argument on the benefits. A bit of reformatting for visibility would also help.


__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 7623
Date:

Bill, the fact is I just traded my old GU for $20K less than I paid for it 12 years ago - One and a half grand a year vehicle depreciation - Other than the stupid prices being paid for secondhand LC's due to shipping crisis at the moment, I think Patrol is a better economic decision, The only downside is size in city traffic and turning circle, but definitely a better ride and a much more capable tug with 5 litre V8.

__________________

Possum; AKA:- Ali El-Aziz Mohamed Gundawiathan

Sent from my imperial66 typewriter using carrier pigeon, message sticks and smoke signals.



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:
RE: Landcruiser 300. Sheep in wolf's clothing?


yobarr wrote:

The Y62 is a better car all round but doesn't have the "pose" appeal of the LC300. It is, however, is one of few cars available that can safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Cheers


 I own a Y62 Patrol yes it has plenty of power to tow 3500Kg but its pretty much impossible to do it without exceeding GVM and/or rear axle weights . 



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 4107
Date:

JackoFJR wrote:
yobarr wrote:

The Y62 is a better car all round but doesn't have the "pose" appeal of the LC300. It is, however, is one of few cars available that can safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Cheers


 I own a Y62 Patrol yes it has plenty of power to tow 3500Kg but its pretty much impossible to do it without exceeding GVM and/or rear axle weights . 


 Hi Ron. What you suggest is incorrect, but I'm driving the Roadtrain so can't really explain at the moment. Your car is good for 6520kg GCM, all legal, all safe!  Will explain later tonight if I get back to base in time. Cheers



__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 4107
Date:
Landcruiser 300. (LC300) Sheep in wolf's clothing?


Are We Lost wrote:

Well it's black and white if you want to tow a heavy van. The Y62 can do it, the LC300 can't. In that case, resale value is irrelevant.

Yobarr, why don't you post the figures with a heading that shows it specifially relates to Land Cruiser 300. The figures are useful and members may more easily refer to them that way. However I suggest just removing your opinion on WDH because your message will too easily turn into argument on the benefits. A bit of reformatting for visibility would also help.


 Hi Stephen. Thanks for your suggestion about the subject's heading. I had never considered that members might appreciate a more suitable heading  when they seek information. Now fixed! Regarding the mention of a WDH, I will leave that there as I believe that  slowly people are understanding the real workings of a WDH, and that it is not the universal cure-all that some seem to believe. When I first posted that a WDH increases the weight of a caravan I was shot down in flames from many angles, but now it is generally understood that as well as restoring some front-axle weight  a WDH also transfers weight to the van's axle group. Because a WDH does NOT alter towball weight it is clear that total weight of the van increases. As far as reformatting is concerned, I have played around trying to do that but I am not at all computer literate and the results were not pleasing! Perhaps I will seek advice once I am back in civilisation! Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 28th of November 2022 11:10:07 PM

__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 4107
Date:
Landcruiser 300. Sheep in wolf's clothing?


JackoFJR wrote:
yobarr wrote:

The Y62 is a better car all round but doesn't have the "pose" appeal of the LC300. It is, however, is one of few cars available that can safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Cheers


 I own a Y62 Patrol yes it has plenty of power to tow 3500Kg but its pretty much impossible to do it without exceeding GVM and/or rear axle weights . 


 Hi Ron. Brief run-down of figures for your car. These MAY vary depending on year of manufacture, but I'll present the worst case scenario!           GVM is 3500 kg. GCM is 7000kg but impossible to EVER reach. Rear axle capacity is 2030kg and front axle is 1650kg. Because the car has a short TBO (towball overhang, or distance from rear axle to hitch point) when towing a 3500kg van the generally accepted 10% towball weight transfers almost 500kg to the car's rear axle. Because a 350kg towball weight reduces your car's 3500kg GVM by 130kg you're back to 3370kg. I'm very tired, but briefly, this is how it works. With a 3500kg van and 10% towball weight your GTM (weight on van wheels) is obviously 3150kg. Careful loading makes it easy to reach, but not exceed, your car's rear axle capacity of 2030kg. These two figures (2030 and 3150) total 5180kg. Now deduct rear axle capacity (2030kg) from GVM (3370kg) and you will see that you have 1340kg left for your front axle. Simple stuff really, and these fugures can NEVER be achieved with an LC300. Period. There are many variables that I could explain if I was less tired, but this brief summary should help you? Cheers

P.S It perhaps should be noted that the Y62 has a much longer wheelbase and a shorter TBO (towball overhang) than does an LC 300, so is therefore inherently more stable, and safer.



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 29th of November 2022 07:41:56 AM

__________________

v



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

Yobar I have weighed a few Ti Y62's , straight from the show room 2 of us in the front seats @ 170Kg , full fuel tank , Nissan towbar nothing else completely stock , not even a brake controller fitted , the front axle = 1540Kg , rear axle - 1460Kg = 3000Kg . 

3500 Van with 350Kg on the towball = 500Kg on the rear axle with the weight transfer so yes GVM = 3350Kg all good lets go but you only have 70Kg to play with on the rear axle 

I don't know about you but most ppl do carry some extra things in the vehicle , from my experience any weight placed in the vehicle behind the front seats adds pretty much

all its weight to the rear axle , so even a couple of small kids or one adult or a few tools , recovery gear , small fridge anything at all in the back and you will be cutting it really fine on the rear axle .

Plenty buy a Y62 and think because its got a very nice powerful 5.6lt V8 they can hook up their 3500kg Van and off they go but they are now the ppl all over the FB almost everyday asking about GVM/GCM upgrades

I think that's to close for comfort and not very practical , yes it might be better than a LC 200/300 .

I tow a Hybrid Van ATM 2500kg but last trip it was only loaded to 2380Kg  and I was over 2030Kg rear axle , we have a 300kg GVM upgrade that gives me only a extra 120kg on the rear axle  that gets me over the line legally but only just 

I can and will lighten the load even more next trip , anything I didn't use last time and there is a couple of heavy items will stay home .

 

Maybe I should just get WDH and reduce the towball weight .






-- Edited by JackoFJR on Tuesday 29th of November 2022 12:48:50 PM

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 4107
Date:

JackoFJR wrote:

Yobar I have weighed a few Ti Y62's , straight from the show room 2 of us in the front seats @ 170Kg , full fuel tank , Nissan towbar nothing else completely stock , not even a brake controller fitted , the front axle = 1540Kg , rear axle - 1460Kg = 3000Kg . 

3500 Van with 350Kg on the towball = 500Kg on the rear axle with the weight transfer so yes GVM = 3350Kg all good lets go but you only have 70Kg to play with on the rear axle 

I don't know about you but most ppl do carry some extra things in the vehicle , from my experience any weight placed in the vehicle behind the front seats adds pretty much

all its weight to the rear axle , so even a couple of small kids or one adult or a few tools , recovery gear , small fridge anything at all in the back and you will be cutting it really fine on the rear axle .

Plenty buy a Y62 and think because its got a very nice powerful 5.6lt V8 they can hook up their 3500kg Van and off they go but they are now the ppl all over the FB almost everyday asking about GVM/GCM upgrades

I think that's to close for comfort and not very practical , yes it might be better than a LC 200/300 .

I tow a Hybrid Van ATM 2500kg but last trip it was only loaded to 2380Kg  and I was over 2030Kg rear axle , we have a 300kg GVM upgrade that gives me only a extra 120kg on the rear axle  that gets me over the line legally but only just 

I can and will lighten the load even more next trip , anything I didn't use last time and there is a couple of heavy items will stay home .

 

Maybe I should just get WDH and reduce the towball weight .

-- Edited by JackoFJR on Tuesday 29th of November 2022 12:48:50 PM


 Flat out driving today, but please note.:- 

WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. .   Never has. Never will. Explain later.



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 29th of November 2022 04:03:31 PM

__________________

v



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 6120
Date:

Bill B wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Possum3 wrote:

Additionally with the price of diesel now being around fifty cents/litre above petrol, the Y62 Patrol would be a more prudent buy.


The Y62 is a better car all round but doesn't have the "pose" appeal of the LC300. It is, however, is one of few cars available that can safely tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Cheers


 I know which I'd rather own when it comes time to sell/trade, and it isn't the Nissan no


 If you bought a Land Rover you would need to sell it.



__________________

Procrastination, mankind's greatest labour saving device!

50L custom fuel rack 6x20W 100/20mppt 4x26Ah gel 28L super insulated fridge TPMS 3 ARB compressors heatsink fan cooled 4L tank aftercooler Air/water OCD cleaning 4 stage car acoustic insulation.



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 635
Date:

Possum3 wrote:

Additionally with the price of diesel now being around fifty cents/litre above petrol, the Y62 Patrol would be a more prudent buy.


Ahhh, but the Nissan is NOT a four wheel drive, it is an AWD soft-roader and not only will that get you bogged in deep mud or dry sand, you will be prevented from going places that insist on 4x4 only.

The Patrol AWD relies on an electronic traction control system to prevent independent wheel spin as all modern AWD vehicles do, unfortunately, on surfaces where your wheels must slip independently, such as dry sand, an AWD will have you coming to a shuddering halt very quickly.

Been there, done that, would never buy an AWD again and expect reliable off road performance.

AWD is great on a Toorak tractor that mostly stays on the black top or gravel, but give me a proper 4x4 any day.

I'm not saying I'm some sh!t-hot driver, but I've never been bogged in my 4x4, yet I've had to do lots of recovery winching for AWDs



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 6120
Date:

My Land Rover has electronic traction control but the Toyota was in a spot of trouble on this beach.

 

normal_20180710162558.jpeg



__________________

Procrastination, mankind's greatest labour saving device!

50L custom fuel rack 6x20W 100/20mppt 4x26Ah gel 28L super insulated fridge TPMS 3 ARB compressors heatsink fan cooled 4L tank aftercooler Air/water OCD cleaning 4 stage car acoustic insulation.



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

Hylife wrote:

 


Ahhh, but the Nissan is NOT a four wheel drive, it is an AWD soft-roader and not only will that get you bogged in deep mud or dry sand, you will be prevented from going places that insist on 4x4 only.

The Patrol AWD relies on an electronic traction control system to prevent independent wheel spin as all modern AWD vehicles do, unfortunately, on surfaces where your wheels must slip independently, such as dry sand, an AWD will have you coming to a shuddering halt very quickly


 Hylife you do realise the Y62 has a H4 and a L4 , I have driven plenty of deep sand and sand dunes on Googs Tk towing a 1.5T camper never once did I need a second go at a dune , can't say the same for the mate following in his Hilux also did most tracks on Lorella Springs towing a 2.5T Hybrid van with absolutely no problems , have driven a lot of Vic High country tracks without any problems .



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

yobarr wrote:


yobarr wrote:

 Hi Ron. What you suggest is incorrect, but I'm driving the Roadtrain so can't really explain at the moment. Your car is good for 6520kg GCM, all legal, all safe!  Will explain later tonight if I get back to base in time. Cheers


 yobarr don't worry about it you are only working on theory , I have actually weighed a few Y62's the weights I quote are actual weights 

I only baited you when I said I should get a WDH because I was very amused reading the thread a few months ago , its a pity it was closed , it kept me entertained .

You are very tired you should take a Bex and have lie down .



-- Edited by JackoFJR on Wednesday 30th of November 2022 10:34:06 AM

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 7623
Date:

As a 4WD the Patrol is as good as ever. A 7-speed automatic transmission with manual mode complements the intelligent 4X4 shift switch (Auto, 4-high and 4-low capabilities) making driving, whether on road, snow, sand or rock, convenient. There is also an electronic rear diff lock.

__________________

Possum; AKA:- Ali El-Aziz Mohamed Gundawiathan

Sent from my imperial66 typewriter using carrier pigeon, message sticks and smoke signals.



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

Possum3 wrote:

As a 4WD the Patrol is as good as ever. A 7-speed automatic transmission with manual mode complements the intelligent 4X4 shift switch (Auto, 4-high and 4-low capabilities) making driving, whether on road, snow, sand or rock, convenient. There is also an electronic rear diff lock.


 Yep Possum that's right we have a Mazda CX3 its a AWD , I wouldn't even class it as a soft - roader , its a nice little car. Hylife must have the Y62 confused with some other vehicle and yobarr , I dunno about him when I say I have weighed a few Y62's and the rear axle is 1460Kg full fuel , towbar + 2 ppl add 350Kg TBW with weight transfer that = 500Kg rear axle his estimate , I don't know I will never tow anything that heavy .

So 1460Kg rear axle + 500Kg = 1960Kg only leaving 70kg to reach max rear axle , I guess like he says you can tow 3.5T , you would have to be very careful what you carry in the back , not very practical 

I couldn't care less that a Y62 is a better tow vehicle than a LC 200 / 300 , I don't own either and never will .



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 635
Date:

JackoFJR wrote:

 Hylife you do realise the Y62 has a H4 and a L4 ,


 

That it has a switch with H4 and L4 doesn't change the fact that it is still just an AWD with limited off-road capabilities, not a 4WD. That H4/L4 just means high or low ratio gearing.

Sending power to four wheels and controlling that power using electronic braking is completely different to mechanically locking front and rear drive shafts and axels so that all four wheels have the same traction regardless of slippage.

You simply can't rely on electronics to control wheel slip and drive to all four wheels on surfaces where your wheels WILL spin such as deep mud or snow or deep dry sand, because applying braking to the slipping wheels WILL bring you to a juddering stop.

In poor surface conditions there is virtually no difference between AWD and a normal car for handling, braking or cornering.

Try gaining access to the ranger controlled NSW/Vic high country in winter with an AWD when they state 4WD only, you won't.

And don't get me started on the whole can of worms around recovery or insurance by taking an AWD into the many places in Australia that clearly sign post as 4WD only.

Don't get me wrong, the new Patrol is a lovely car, but that's all it is, a soft roader car, not an off roader 4WD.

 



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

Hylife Mate you are completely wrong , it's only a AWD in auto / road mode sending power to the front wheels when it detects slip .  When H4 or L4 is  selected it's  exactly the same as all my other 4wds  that I have owned . The Vic High country is my backyard , I have been driving High Country tracks for more than 40 years , the Y62 can drive all the tracks just as easily as my twin locked previous 4wds . 

Regards Jacko . 



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2509
Date:

You can make an AWD into a 4WD by turning off all the electronic controls...........works much better than just locking the diff.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4luarvzXYs



__________________

Make it Snappy......Bob

 



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

Bobdown wrote:

You can make an AWD into a 4WD by turning off all the electronic controls...........works much better than just locking the diff.

 Bob that vehicle is a Land Cruiser 200 series , it's not a AWD , it has a centre diff that needs to be locked for true 4wd in H4 or L4 , my Patrol has no centre diff that needs to be locked in H4 /L4 it automatically mechanically locks front and rear drive shafts and axles so that all four wheels have traction when H4 or L4 is selected , but really the only way to lock all for wheels is with diff locks front and rear , then all 4 wheels will turn at the same speed regardless of traction , even if one wheel on a axle has nothing but daylight underneath it will still turn at the same speed as the other wheel .                  My Y62 has a rear Diff lock when engaged both rear wheels will turn at the same speed . 


 



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2509
Date:

JackoFJR wrote:
Bobdown wrote:

You can make an AWD into a 4WD by turning off all the electronic controls...........works much better than just locking the diff.

 Bob that vehicle is a Land Cruiser 200 series , it's not a AWD , it has a centre diff that needs to be locked for true 4wd in H4 or L4 , my Patrol has no centre diff that needs to be locked in H4 /L4 it automatically mechanically locks front and rear drive shafts and axles so that all four wheels have traction when H4 or L4 is selected , but really the only way to lock all for wheels is with diff locks front and rear , then all 4 wheels will turn at the same speed regardless of traction , even if one wheel on a axle has nothing but daylight underneath it will still turn at the same speed as the other wheel .                  My Y62 has a rear Diff lock when engaged both rear wheels will turn at the same speed . 


 Sorry Ron, it is of course Full time 4WD not AWD. But to get even torque to all wheels, turn off the electrics as per the video.

Don't know about Patrols, wouldn't be caught dead in one .......sorry.

Cheers Bob


 



__________________

Make it Snappy......Bob

 



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

Thats ok Bob no need to be sorry about not liking Patrols , I thought you might of been confused about AWD v 4WD like Hylife seems to be with the Y62 . I have had several different makes of cars and 4wds , my Patrol has all the electrics like the LC and yes you do need to know and when to use them or turn them off , I think there are to many electric gizmos in modern cars . I am not a fan boy of any particular brand and never claim what I own at the time is the best .

Regards Jacko .



-- Edited by JackoFJR on Thursday 1st of December 2022 05:47:22 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 67
Date:

We could go back to the days of 3 gear sticks, a clutch pedal and sliding windows.

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 290
Date:

BarneyBDB wrote:

We could go back to the days of 3 gear sticks, a clutch pedal and sliding windows.


 My first 4WD had all that . Nothing wrong with the 3 sticks , didn't have to wait for the lights on the dash to stop flashing and you could at least have a PTO winch back then with Patrols and Cruisers a manual box Hmm no thanks or sliding windows . 



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3755
Date:

Landrover with the push down stick? and hope it stuck

__________________

Cheers Craig

Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
Purchase Grey Nomad bumper stickers Read our daily column, the Nomad News The Grey Nomad's Guidebook