Towing weights

JOSHG · Member

Towing weights

KJB · Guru

JOSHG wrote:
Hi everyone. I am looking at buying my first caravan. I am needing some advise from you lot that have been towing maybe a lot longer than me. I have a general understanding of GVM,GCM, Tare weights etc I was talking to a business that does some caravan weighing. Now their recommendation is that to be safe and allow a bit of a buffer I guess is the caravan loaded should be about 75% of the vehicles tow capacity and the vehicle to be about 85% of its GVM. So for my 2021 hilux 3500kg towing, 75%, van at about 2625kg Hilux GVM 3050kg, 85%, 4wd 2595kg Hilux GCM 5850 - 2625 - 2595 = 630kg Do you think using the 85/75% be realistic I think I could find a van that when loaded is about that. A loaded hilux with people, accessories etc, I think I my struggle to keep it under that.

Wise move to do what you are doing....inquiring and learning what is legal etc. before spending your "hard earned"......can save lots of tears later.....Set up with "what is legal" and fit your life around it (should not be a problem) - rather than buy what you reckon you need and find that it is not safe or legal.

Let us all know what combination you end up with.......and happy travelling. KB

JOSHG · Member

Thanks KB Looking at new and second hand. New one obviously has a decent wait time. The hard thing I am finding at the moment regarding a new van is as I'm looking for a family van. Queen bed plus 2 bunks. There are some brands that start their family vans at 21ft. Due to their size they are heavier which start to push the boundaries with weights, and I'm not sure I really want anything that big. It isn't easy to find a 16-19ft single or double axle semi to full offroad with a queen bed and decent bunks that is less than say 80k.

Possum3 · Guru

Welcome to GN's JOSHG, To assist new buyers Caravan Council of Australia have many free downloads of checklists, buying and technical information see; www.caravancouncil.com.au/

I'm certain if you check out the site all you queries will be answered.

gold dandelion · Senior Member

Is this another set up? wouldn't worry about asking on here mate, they will only confuse you, however it will entertain you.

woolman · Guru

My advice is you can never do too much research on towing and weights. You will need to know tow vehicle axle loads for one. Tow ball load about doubles as rear axle load

Good luck and enjoy

Neil

Greg 1 · Guru

Without sitting down and doing all the sums on a Hilux, I would say that in general terms you are somewhere in the paddock.

I do not know of too many vehicles that can tow in any practical sense, their rated tow capacity. They pretty much all are limited by either GCM or axle load or both. Technically they might be able to tow 3500kgs but with barely any payload at all in the Ute, so it becomes just a theoretical figure for all intents and purposes.
Therefore, what the business is telling you is on the mark and probably even that might push very close to the limits when you get the fully laden rig on the scales. You want to aim for just a bit under your maximum allowable weights if you can.

Remember that the weight of the van must include full water tanks and the gas in the bottles as that is not considered in the tare weight of your van. That comes off your payload.
The cars payload includes the passengers plus any accessories such as bullbars, canopies, draw systems etc plus the ball weight of the van so that rapidly adds up and you will find that what gear you can carry in the vehicle is quite limited for you to stay under the legal maximum.

It does become a real juggling act at times, particularly if your missus wants to take the house with her.
You have to learn to travel light. We go through the van before each trip and heave out anything we haven't used on the previous trip. Things tend to accumulate in the van if you let them.

The Belmont Bear · Guru

We are currently preparing to leave on a long planned trip through Queensland and the Territiory with a new van, I was concerned about weights and wanted to be certain that we are both legal and for safety reasons that we have the load distributed correctly. I have decided to invest $350 for a mobile weighing service to come and do all of our weights (appointment is tomorrow) . It has been a little hard for me to convince the wife that we dont need to take everything with us and hearing it straight from an expert may just be enough to convince her that we should rethink what is necessary..Their advice is to have the tow vehicle and van loaded as if we were leaving including, full tanks, gas bottles, clothes, food, car full tank of fuel etc, in order to end up with the worst case scenario. After weighing everything they will spend time coaching us on things like weight distrubution, and then show us the impact of moving things around. After the session they will write a full report and issue certification on our current set up..Obviously as the trip progresses these weights will change but at least we will know wher our starting point is. Personally I think it is on the expensive side but just like a towing course it is worth the peace of mind it gives - if nothing else we will have a better understanding of where we are when we set off. I included a sheet that they sent to me explaining weight terminology and the things that they will be reporting on.

JOSHG although this is not our first van like you we took a lot of advice from different places before ordering it I guess now the proof is going to be whether any of that advice matches reality.

Good Luck

BB

-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Sunday 4th of September 2022 07:00:42 AM

-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Sunday 4th of September 2022 07:02:59 AM

-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Sunday 4th of September 2022 07:05:05 AM

Red Fox · Member

I like that BB. Great how the weigh bridge is shown in red. I might learn something here.

Thanks.

yobarr · Guru

JOSHG wrote:
Hi everyone. I am looking at buying my first caravan. I am needing some advise from you lot that have been towing maybe a lot longer than me. I have a general understanding of GVM,GCM, Tare weights etc I was talking to a business that does some caravan weighing. Now their recommendation is that to be safe and allow a bit of a buffer I guess is the caravan loaded should be about 75% of the vehicles tow capacity and the vehicle to be about 85% of its GVM. So for my 2021 hilux 3500kg towing, 75%, van at about 2625kg Hilux GVM 3050kg, 85%, 4wd 2595kg Hilux GCM 5850 - 2625 - 2595 = 630kg Do you think using the 85/75% be realistic I think I could find a van that when loaded is about that. A loaded hilux with people, accessories etc, I think I my struggle to keep it under that.

Hi David. Great to see that you're being responsible with your weights, and also good to see that at least one weighing business is doing things correctly. Without ridiculously selective loading there is very little chance of you ever reaching your GVM figure, because, as always, the lightweight rear axle is the weak link and the limiting factor. Don't have that axle rating on me but I'd bet it's under 1850kg . may be in owners' manual? Assuming you do manage to load your car to 3000kg, which includes towball weight, on paper you'd have 2850kg left for weight on caravan wheels, but forget that! If safety is of any concern, always the weight on the car's wheels should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels. Weights are a complicated issue, understood by few, but long story short, if loaded to GVM, your car can safely tow a 3000kg van. With 10% towball weight (300kg) you'd have 2700kg on van's wheels. All good! But watch your rear axle as a 300kg (10%) towball weight will put around 420-430kg onto that lightweight rear axle. If you find that you're overloaded on your car's rear axle DO NOT be tempted to reduce towball weight as that's just asking for trouble on most vans. Yaw. Enough for now, but if you stick to a 2700kg ATM van it'll be a walk in the park! Good luck. Cheers

Greg 1 · Guru

yobarr wrote:
JOSHG wrote:
Hi everyone. I am looking at buying my first caravan. I am needing some advise from you lot that have been towing maybe a lot longer than me. I have a general understanding of GVM,GCM, Tare weights etc I was talking to a business that does some caravan weighing. Now their recommendation is that to be safe and allow a bit of a buffer I guess is the caravan loaded should be about 75% of the vehicles tow capacity and the vehicle to be about 85% of its GVM. So for my 2021 hilux 3500kg towing, 75%, van at about 2625kg Hilux GVM 3050kg, 85%, 4wd 2595kg Hilux GCM 5850 - 2625 - 2595 = 630kg Do you think using the 85/75% be realistic I think I could find a van that when loaded is about that. A loaded hilux with people, accessories etc, I think I my struggle to keep it under that.
Hi David. Great to see that you're being responsible with your weights, and also good to see that at least one weighing business is doing things correctly. Without ridiculously selective loading there is very little chance of you ever reaching your GVM figure, because, as always, the lightweight rear axle is the weak link and the limiting factor. Don't have that axle rating on me but I'd bet it's under 1850kg . may be in owners' manual? Assuming you do manage to load your car to 3000kg, which includes towball weight, on paper you'd have 2850kg left for weight on caravan wheels, but forget that! If safety is of any concern, always the weight on the car's wheels should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels. Weights are a complicated issue, understood by few, but long story short, if loaded to GVM, your car can safely tow a 3000kg van. With 10% towball weight (300kg) you'd have 2700kg on van's wheels. All good! But watch your rear axle as a 300kg (10%) towball weight will put around 420-430kg onto that lightweight rear axle. If you find that you're overloaded on your car's rear axle DO NOT be tempted to reduce towball weight as that's just asking for trouble on most vans. Yaw. Enough for now, but if you stick to a 2700kg ATM van it'll be a walk in the park! Good luck. Cheers

Maybe one of those evil WDH things might just assist with load on that light rear axle yobarr......just saying.

oldbloke · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
yobarr wrote:
JOSHG wrote:
Hi everyone. I am looking at buying my first caravan. I am needing some advise from you lot that have been towing maybe a lot longer than me. I have a general understanding of GVM,GCM, Tare weights etc I was talking to a business that does some caravan weighing. Now their recommendation is that to be safe and allow a bit of a buffer I guess is the caravan loaded should be about 75% of the vehicles tow capacity and the vehicle to be about 85% of its GVM. So for my 2021 hilux 3500kg towing, 75%, van at about 2625kg Hilux GVM 3050kg, 85%, 4wd 2595kg Hilux GCM 5850 - 2625 - 2595 = 630kg Do you think using the 85/75% be realistic I think I could find a van that when loaded is about that. A loaded hilux with people, accessories etc, I think I my struggle to keep it under that.
Hi David. Great to see that you're being responsible with your weights, and also good to see that at least one weighing business is doing things correctly. Without ridiculously selective loading there is very little chance of you ever reaching your GVM figure, because, as always, the lightweight rear axle is the weak link and the limiting factor. Don't have that axle rating on me but I'd bet it's under 1850kg . may be in owners' manual? Assuming you do manage to load your car to 3000kg, which includes towball weight, on paper you'd have 2850kg left for weight on caravan wheels, but forget that! If safety is of any concern, always the weight on the car's wheels should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels. Weights are a complicated issue, understood by few, but long story short, if loaded to GVM, your car can safely tow a 3000kg van. With 10% towball weight (300kg) you'd have 2700kg on van's wheels. All good! But watch your rear axle as a 300kg (10%) towball weight will put around 420-430kg onto that lightweight rear axle. If you find that you're overloaded on your car's rear axle DO NOT be tempted to reduce towball weight as that's just asking for trouble on most vans. Yaw. Enough for now, but if you stick to a 2700kg ATM van it'll be a walk in the park! Good luck. Cheers
Maybe one of those evil WDH things might just assist with load on that light rear axle yobarr......just saying.

Do you mean Weight Distribution Hitch?. That piece of towing equipment that has been used for 30 or so years by literally 100's of 1000's of caravaners. All quite successfully and are happy to continue to use them. And designed by qualified mechanical engineers. Even some car manufacturers advise they be used.

BUT Yoborr thinks they are ALL WRONG & he is right? Mmmmm? Should we really take any notice of Yoborr? Mmmmm? I think not.

-- Edited by oldbloke on Monday 5th of September 2022 03:02:45 PM

Greg 1 · Guru

Oldbloke. Got a WDH, been using them since the early 70's, wouldn't leave home without one.

yobarr · Guru

Maybe one of those evil WDH things might just assist with load on that light rear axle yobarr......just saying.

Hi Greg. Whilst it pains me to have to say so, in this case, if the OP wishes to load his car with "people and accessories", he has little choice but to use a WDH. Data provided from a reliable source (reputable GVM upgrade business) suggests that the rear axle rating on this car is a ridiculously low 1700kg, so if the OP were to adhere to the recommended 2595kg (85% of GVM) weight limit for the car he would be allowed under 900kg (895kg) on the front axle. Can't be done so unfortunately, in this case, if he wishes to load his car to anywhere near GVM of 3050kg he has little choice but to use the universal cure-all WDH. Because he is being responsible with his towing limitations all the other figures that I provided still are relevant. Good to see you promoting the universally accepted, but much over rated, cure-all WDH that seems to have served you well, but your replies generally suggest that you've actually read my posts and absorbed the content before replying. Thank you. We receive correspondence from the odd bloke who waffles on about stuff that he clearly doesn't understand, but in the main our members seem keen to learn, and to understand weights, so it is refreshing to read your posts. Much of my advice about weights is given after I have received PMs from other members keen to avoid having to endure negative input from people who don't really understand weights, with another well-respected member contacting me only this morning seeking help. Now I must dig deep to supply the requested figures! Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 6th of September 2022 03:04:08 PM

oldbloke · Guru

Oh, dear. Yoborr.
Try reading my post again. :) Did you bother to READ my post.

Do you mean Weight Distribution Hitch?. That piece of towing equipment that has been used for 30 or so years by literally 100's of 1000's of caravaners. All quite successfully and are happy to continue to use them. And designed by qualified mechanical engineers. Even some car manufacturers advise they be used.

BUT Yoborr thinks they are ALL WRONG & he is right? Mmmmm? Should we really take any notice of Yoborr? Mmmmm? I think not

oldbloke · Guru

Yoborr
The designers of motor vehicles and WDHS are qualified mechanical engineers.

They recommend the use of WDHs.

A qualification in engineering is I believe four years at university. A truck driver a few days tuition.

Yoborr, what are your qualifications? Could you post them please.

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

Some recommend WDH, not all, not even a majority. Is the minority right?

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

And my background is mechanical engineering, funded by the Australian Military.

Mike Harding · Guru

BarneyBDB wrote:
Some recommend WDH, not all, not even a majority. Is the minority right?

Does that mean engineering is now a bit like climate change and is decided by majority vote?

oldbloke · Guru

Ivan 01 wrote:
I didnt think that one had to have a degree in mechanical engineering to assess wether or not they need to use a WDH.

I did note that it was only recently that our resident *expert of all things towing and weights* made a statement that another member might use a WDH with the combo that he had posted.

I was shocked.

Well, well. That would be a first. Perhaps he is ?

yobarr · Guru

My apologies, but all day today I have been very busyl However, tomorrow I will endeavour to find time to AGAIN explain the simple physics involved. Seems that there is a slow learner in our midst, as already,many times, I have explained in detail how I have attained my knowledge, but in this instance not even rote learning seems to have worked. As far as my endorsement, in this case, of using a WDH goes, shifting a bit of weight off the loaded car's rear axle is a completely different scenario from using a WDH in an attempt to make some lightweight car tow a much heavier caravan than any sane person would consider safe. We're looking at only 2700kg GTM here. Thus, the weight on the car's wheels is around 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels. Provided the van has a high enough ATM (and GTM) rating any weight that the WDH transfers to the van's axle group is of little consequence because we're nowhere hear the CLAIMED maximum ATM towing of this car. As clearly stated, the Hilux can safely tow up to around 3000kg, but that's it. Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Thanks, Barney and Craig, for your support. Unfortunately, logic and common sense apparently are foreign to some. Ivan, could I ask you to read the post below, where I explained how using a WDH would be sensible and acceptable in this situation? BIG difference from trying to make some inferior vehicle do things fir which it never was designed. Cgeers

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

Our current van was bought used in Adelaide, it came with about 40 kgs of WDH parts. I do not know what the previous owner towed with as he drowned in a fishing accident and I did not feel comfortable contacting his widow about this. What I did was take the van on some local trips without the WDH, the numbers told me I did not need it anyway.
I found the van towed very well, no problems what so ever. The van has ESC and so does the MUX tug. We have since done Adelaide to Darwin and return via the East coast and now in Albany, WA, heading clockwise. Not sure whether I will sell the WDH for scrap value when I get home again or post it on here for it's perceived value.

Bobdown · Guru

BarneyBDB wrote:
Our current van was bought used in Adelaide, it came with about 40 kgs of WDH parts. I do not know what the previous owner towed with as he drowned in a fishing accident and I did not feel comfortable contacting his widow about this. What I did was take the van on some local trips without the WDH, the numbers told me I did not need it anyway.
I found the van towed very well, no problems what so ever. The van has ESC and so does the MUX tug. We have since done Adelaide to Darwin and return via the East coast and now in Albany, WA, heading clockwise. Not sure whether I will sell the WDH for scrap value when I get home again or post it on here for it's perceived value.

What are you towing a 8' x 5' trailer, a WDH would benefit a lightweight MUX towing anything over 2 ton.

Cheers Bob

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

Towing a Jurgens Lunagazer 2403 www.gorv.com.au/jurgens-lunagazer-test/ 1760 kg tare. Interesting that you call the MUX a lightweight, it at least has a real chassis, unlike all the Hyundai, Kia etc that I see trying to tow. I have been driving 4 wheel drives for more than 50 years ranging from Susukis, dune buggies, Nissan Patrols, Landcruiser's and many military vehicles with 4wd or more.
I also hold a truck licence and used to have a road train endorsement.
If some of you feel you need a security blanket, that is your choice. What some of us are asking is if your choices are based on reality, perception, or I read it somewhere on the internet?
During my time towing I have experienced things that I really did not want to so I am confident in my assessment of the current rig not needing any further help.

Long Weekend · Guru

While on hold on a phone call to Pedders Suspensions to enquire about a spring for a caravan, a commentator gave a summary of the services offered by Pedders.

One service offered was to assist people with all towing aspects, including weights and balances for caravans.

Might be another avenue to get the right information about weights.

Murray

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

That is not an un biased assessment, they always recommend paying for one of their products.

Webmaster · Guru

Hi all,
Just a reminder to please keep posts focused on the topic, rather than on the person who posted. Thanks.

Magnarc · Guru

It might also be a good idea to post questions on weights and the like, in the right forum??????????

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

You boys been playing up again. biggrin

My reasoning if I had no knowledge would be to listen to the advice of a registered and reputable company whose work entails suspensions and weights than to take the advice of any self proclaimed authority on any public forum.