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Post Info TOPIC: EV Chargers


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As the EV revolution is trying to gather momentum, the big question is who should pay for the construction.

Government or Private enterprise ?

Subsidised or Not ?

Charges 

User pays with GST and road tax or Just amount with GST ?



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The way that I see it is that all power consumers will pay because those who are hellbent on having this technology up and running in record time expect that everyone will have an EV and they will be charging them at home and office / workplace.

Because of this there will be no way to meter the power used therefore we all will pay.

I also notice that this is never a topic raised by any of those promoting the sale and use of EVs

Unfortunately there will be millions of consumers who wont be using this technology but will be subsidising the others.

Some may argue that the power consumed by charging will reflect in their power bill but the extra strain on our already challenged power supplies will be enormous and therefore we will all pay.

Even those with solar would have to have independent storage of some size to charge overnight while the sun is on the other side of our earth.

Fools rush in where wisemen know it is not smart to tread.

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When the network is designed properly EV batteries can become part of the network & will work both ways.

EVs that can supply at night for instance will get credit, EVs that charge during the highest spare power periods get the cheapest rates.

 

This sort of thing is happening now with smart network air conditioners. The owners get a discount & the network switches off the air conditioning occasionally.

 

Why waste the biggest battery resource. Make the EV the ultimate network asset.



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NSW Taxpayers are fixing it in todays budget, $38 million this year

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Craig1 wrote:

NSW Taxpayers are fixing it in todays budget, $38 million this year


  Based on your response so when hydrogen becomes available, the NSW government should build hydrogen service centres across the state even in the remotest corner of the state or do you expect someone else to use private capital to do it.



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Roads, railways, airports, ferry wharfs, water storage, electricity, communication all started from public funding. A lot of it is still public.



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Gundog wrote:
Craig1 wrote:

NSW Taxpayers are fixing it in todays budget, $38 million this year


  Based on your response so when hydrogen becomes available, the NSW government should build hydrogen service centres across the state even in the remotest corner of the state or do you expect someone else to use private capital to do it.


 No taxpayer should  pay for this type of retail business development.

Those starting or expanding their businesses should foot the bill.



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Same with water & electricity.



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Commercial developments don't happen unless government acts to make them easier to succeed. That's that case with coal mines, highways, private schools, pharmacies and EV chargers. Only blinkered naysayers think otherwise. There are already a number of commercial EV charger developments including large scale distribution with the likes of Ampol & shopping centre chains and smaller individual operations such as motels and hotels. Motels are using EV charging availability as a point of difference to there competitors and it's highly unlikely this would happen unless someone started the ball rolling on public EV chargers. Australia is already being left behind now and governments have to act or we will be stuffed when it comes to vehicle choice.

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I recently did some work for the body corporate at the Dock 5 Apartment Building in Docklands in Melbourne to see if we could install a small number of electric charging points for owners to charge their electric vehicles. We had our first three applications. We discovered:

1. Our building has no non- allocated parking spaces ie public ones. This is typical of most apartment buildings so we cannot provide shared outlets.

2. The power supply in the building was designed for the loads in the building with virtually no spare capacity. Only 5 or 6 chargers could be installed in total in a building with 188 apartments!!

3. How do you allocate them as they would add value to any apartment owning one. The **** fight started on day one with about 20 applications received 1st day and many more following.

4. The car park sub-boards cannot carry the extra loads of even one charger and would have to be upgraded on any floors with a charger as would the supply mains to each sub board.

5. The main switch board would then have to be upgraded to add the heavier circuit breakers for the sub mains upgrade and furthermore:

6. When Docklands was designed a limit was put on the number of apartments in each precinct and the mains and transformers in the streets designed accordingly. This means there is no capacity in the Docklands street grid for any significant quantity of car chargers in any building in the area.

7. It gets better. The whole CBD (Hoddle Grid, Docklands)and Southbank is fed by two sub stations. One in Port Melbourne and one in West Melbourne. This was done to have two alternate feeds in case one failed or was down for maintenance. Because of the growth in the city /Docklands and Southbank now neither one is now capable of supplying the full requirement of Melbourne zone at peak usage in mid- summer if the other is out of action. The Port Melbourne 66,000 volt feeder runs on 50 or 60 year old wooden power poles above ground along Dorcas Street South Melbourne. One is pole is located 40 cm from the corner Kerb at the incredibly busy Ferrars /St Dorcas St Intersection and is very vulnerable to being wiped out by a wayward vehicle.

8. The infrastructure expenditure required would dwarf the NBN cost excluding the new power stations required

These advocates of electric vehicles only by 2040 are completely bonkers. It takes 5-8 years to design and build a large coal fired power station like Loy Yang and even longer for a Nuclear one (Thats after you get the political will, permits and legislative changes needed ). Wind and solar just cant produce enough. Tidal power might but thats further away than nuclear.

It's just a greenies dream in the foreseeable future other than in small wealthy countries. It will no doubt ultimately come but not in the next 20 years...

The grid cannot support it in most places in Australia!

This is an email sent to me i am not the author nor do i live in Melbourne but if this is accurate and the rest of the country is in a similar situation i agree with the author of the email evs in the near future are a bit of a pipe dream and please dont shoot the messenger








--

Virginia A Hayes (VJ)
Mobile 0427990393

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boab wrote:

I recently did some work for the body corporate at the Dock 5 Apartment Building in Docklands in Melbourne to see if we could install a small number of electric charging points for owners to charge their electric vehicles. We had our first three applications. We discovered:

1. Our building has no non- allocated parking spaces ie public ones. This is typical of most apartment buildings so we cannot provide shared outlets.

2. The power supply in the building was designed for the loads in the building with virtually no spare capacity. Only 5 or 6 chargers could be installed in total in a building with 188 apartments!!

3. How do you allocate them as they would add value to any apartment owning one. The **** fight started on day one with about 20 applications received 1st day and many more following.

4. The car park sub-boards cannot carry the extra loads of even one charger and would have to be upgraded on any floors with a charger as would the supply mains to each sub board.

5. The main switch board would then have to be upgraded to add the heavier circuit breakers for the sub mains upgrade and furthermore:

6. When Docklands was designed a limit was put on the number of apartments in each precinct and the mains and transformers in the streets designed accordingly. This means there is no capacity in the Docklands street grid for any significant quantity of car chargers in any building in the area.

7. It gets better. The whole CBD (Hoddle Grid, Docklands)and Southbank is fed by two sub stations. One in Port Melbourne and one in West Melbourne. This was done to have two alternate feeds in case one failed or was down for maintenance. Because of the growth in the city /Docklands and Southbank now neither one is now capable of supplying the full requirement of Melbourne zone at peak usage in mid- summer if the other is out of action. The Port Melbourne 66,000 volt feeder runs on 50 or 60 year old wooden power poles above ground along Dorcas Street South Melbourne. One is pole is located 40 cm from the corner Kerb at the incredibly busy Ferrars /St Dorcas St Intersection and is very vulnerable to being wiped out by a wayward vehicle.

8. The infrastructure expenditure required would dwarf the NBN cost excluding the new power stations required

These advocates of electric vehicles only by 2040 are completely bonkers. It takes 5-8 years to design and build a large coal fired power station like Loy Yang and even longer for a Nuclear one (Thats after you get the political will, permits and legislative changes needed ). Wind and solar just cant produce enough. Tidal power might but thats further away than nuclear.

It's just a greenies dream in the foreseeable future other than in small wealthy countries. It will no doubt ultimately come but not in the next 20 years...

The grid cannot support it in most places in Australia!

This is an email sent to me i am not the author nor do i live in Melbourne but if this is accurate and the rest of the country is in a similar situation i agree with the author of the email evs in the near future are a bit of a pipe dream and please dont shoot the messenger








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 Thank you for sharing that email boab. Straight from the *horses mouth* so to speak.

Point 8 is of major concern 

8. The infrastructure expenditure required would dwarf the NBN cost excluding the new power stations required

It has been said before;

For every solution there exists another problem.

I would imagine that this infrastructure problem would be repeated in many large city and town situations throughout Australia.

Even extending into some rural areas. Hence the need for so many farmers and station owners to have independent generators.



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 Crikey that made me think about our sons appartment in Kingswood opposite the Nepean Hospital, street parking is almost inpossible, his appartment block has some 300 apartment with 1 allocated parking space per tennant, about 10 visitor spaces and 25 or so spaces for ground floor commercial tennats.

If we go to visit our to stay with him, he gets approval from the building manager for us to use a visitor space, but it an ongoing bun fight to get a space as many tennants have 2 cars.

I can only imagine the cost to retrofit the parking garage with EV charging stations, I suppose you would need to isolate yours because the potential for someone to use you station whilst you not home would be enticing.



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Gundog wrote:


 Crikey that made me think about our sons appartment in Kingswood opposite the Nepean Hospital, street parking is almost inpossible, his appartment block has some 300 apartment with 1 allocated parking space per tennant, about 10 visitor spaces and 25 or so spaces for ground floor commercial tennats.

If we go to visit our to stay with him, he gets approval from the building manager for us to use a visitor space, but it an ongoing bun fight to get a space as many tennants have 2 cars.

I can only imagine the cost to retrofit the parking garage with EV charging stations, I suppose you would need to isolate yours because the potential for someone to use you station whilst you not home would be enticing.


 That is yet just another example of problems that the *dream time save the planet supporters* have not thought of.

 Maybe Elon and others should have been encouraged to build power stations to make up for the deficiet in power availability that we will all face when mum and dad get home from work and plug their cars in for tomorrow.

These promoters and supporters have not done any valid research into our requirements for base load power and peak demands on infrastructure.



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In our block of units built in the 1950s there are only 4 garages for 15 Units & one common parking space. In 2016 we finally got around to some badly needed electrical replacement & upgrades & remove asbestos while at it.

Us fortune garage owners who previously had no electricity, now have 240v & 3 phase outlets back to our own meters. About a 25 metre run from the meter room. The 240 & 415 cost each of the garage owners $500 extra. In was a no brainer.

We also factored in & budgeted in our maintenance plan for a charging point for the other residents in the common parking space.

 

2020 Germany ordered all 14,118 petrol stations to have at least 1 EV charger.



-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Wednesday 22nd of June 2022 04:33:33 PM

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All the wires and plugs arent of any use to anyone if there is no power coming out of the plugs.

Asking money from people to have charging facilities installed does not guarantee supply.

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But no wires no supply.



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Whenarewethere wrote:

But no wires no supply.


 Did you read the email above that was shared by boab.

Did you note in particular, point #8



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I did. Some Australians have the pessimism that Norway doesn't.



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The "letter" posted is years old. If it's correct (and there's nothing to say one way or the other), it should be treated as a warning rather than a barrier. This country's current power issues are not the inability to generate or distribute power but the inability of (or inaction by) successive governments in ensuring domestic supply of generation fuel. You can either decide the status quo will last forever or you can decide to encourage improvement. Your choice, but thankfully our governments now seem to be on the side of change over stagnation.

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In a previous life at work we wanted to rearrange the entire warehouse. Everyone fluffing around, we can't do this we can't do that. It went on for 6 months.

I had worked out the order to do everything in the most efficient way. I knew the old forklift only had so many battery hours so couldn't waste a minute in inefficient manoeuvres.

Monday morning they came in, the warehouse was rearranged to the new plan. No one said a word for about a week.

 

Another situation was moving a heavy lathe from a very difficult location. I just got on & moved it, and safety. It was actually far safer to move without all the "handicaps".

 

Too many can't doers in this world wasting oxygen!



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dabbler wrote:

The "letter" posted is years old. If it's correct (and there's nothing to say one way or the other), it should be treated as a warning rather than a barrier. This country's current power issues are not the inability to generate or distribute power but the inability of (or inaction by) successive governments in ensuring domestic supply of generation fuel. You can either decide the status quo will last forever or you can decide to encourage improvement. Your choice, but thankfully our governments now seem to be on the side of change over stagnation.


 I understand that you have an EV and you probably have the ability to charge it overnight at your home at a great saving in using this new *fuel*

I imagine because of this you want to promote this technology as it is proving every day that it is saving you money and will reach a cut off point between the cost of the EV and the money you will save with electricity over petrol / diesel.

I dont think that anyone doubts this scale of economy.

What is a problem that our current base line / load  power is operating on the borderline Now in most states.

What is dangerously incorrect, is wildly promoting the purchase and use of these vehicles when we all know the charging of these units will place stress on so many others in the community.

The EV technology is great if we take out how much fossil fuels are used to manufacture and to operate this technology.

This technology wont save the planet, as the manufacturers of these vehicles are using fossil fuels so the emotion from some that it will, is not true.

I know many do have solar systems to charge them and that is a start but even in this thread we are seeing examples of high density living whereby if there is a take up of these vehicles then they either wont have the power or infrastructure  to charge them or there will be some others, probably many others, that will have to forego their entitlement to power from the grid because of the demand of this new technology.

What I, and maybe some others are saying or asking, is why, we appear to be rushing into this new technology when we know that we wont have the power base load to cope without massive inconvenience to others.

At a guess it would take a week or so to build many of these cars but it has been recently reported that any development of one new power station ( of any type) will involve a time frame of ten years.

I am no Rhodes Scholar but the sums just dont add up.

Until we have the ability to charge this technology then that technology should not be introduced.



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There are a host of different options to solve problems. Here are just a few suggestions:

 

https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t68548055/can-we-have-a-conversation-about-power-reliability/?page=1#comment-68550412

 

The issue is that we need to start doing something now or the problems will just be harder to solve later on. 

 

We do need better infrastructure to handle all the extra power we need and to connect to proposed solutions to the rest of Australia. Ideally HVDC would be best and then convert that to AC for domestic supply at the nearby substations. 

 

Australia has vast areas to generate renewable energy. We just need to provide incentives for the businesses to do that or the government to start building them. Any extra renewable supply can be converted to a storage format including hydrogen. Any excess hydrogen could be sold overseas. Japan would be an ideal target country for that supply.

 

Australia could take a great advantage of the renewable potential. It could lead the world and it would create many jobs. The problem is that we've neglected to do anything for decades and we're now feeling the pinch.



-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Thursday 23rd of June 2022 02:15:20 PM

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Ivan I purchased an EV because they make sense for urban dwellers who don't need it to travel regularly or tow. Regular road travellers are a minority in this country. About a third of Australia's homes have solar panels, that means my circumstances are as unusual as you are trying to suggest. The current power issues in Australia are not a lack of capacity, if you believe that you're buying into the power generator's lies. They're trying to protect their profits not caring about their role in society. The current power issue is succesive governments haven't secured local fuels for generation in favour of export sales, fuel supply cost is rising and traditional power generators are feeling the pinch. High density living isn't the barrier to installation of EV charging that naysayers make out but *if* it is then that's another reason why government needs to be involved. Retrofitting power capacity to older multi-dwellings will need to happen just as replacement of carpets, installing AC or smoke detectors. New multi-dwellings developments will incorporate this technology. You'll notice there was nothing verifiable on the "letter" reproduced earlier. Ask yourself why no names or web links were presented. No one is saying the transition to predominantly EV will be without challenges but it's certainly isn't impossible and it certainly isn't cost prohibitive. For the record, we recently sold our house and the estimated increase in value of our solar and EV charging ability was between 70-100k. Their installation cost about 45-50k over a period of 5 years.

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If you are correct dabbler then we will all be able to drive Evs and to charge them up overnight or when it may be suitable.

So the power supply we have in Australia is being held back by the supply companies, is that correct?

Is this holding back of power supply a political decision or can you tell me why the power companies dont want to supply their commodity when consumers want or need it.

I think you mentioned that you have solar and as Ivan pointed out it is a start toward being able to claim the *green* tag to your car but as I drive around cities and towns I observe that the charging infrastructure will be a logistical nightmare.

Never mind though because the power companies apparently do have the power to charge all the EV cars in the next several years but the truth of the matter is that by using these cars and charging them off the grid those cars arent really *green* are they.?

Now if you are wrong and in fact the power is going to be a problem would the users of these EVs be prepared to park them up so that the power might be used in hospitals, nursing homes, and the like and even to the point of the elderly and the young not having any cooling or heating at home when needed.

I for one would like to see them parked up if my mum was huddled in her little home unit freezing with the cold during winter.

It is a shame that many of you take any discussion as criticism when in actual fact as Ivan said, The Sums Just Dont Add Up.

The OP asked who should pay and in my opinion those who want to operate their electric cars should have installed at their home, a complete solar charging and storage system and not be a burden on the taxpayer via any government or place any pressure on existing power supply.

The same with charging stations.
Those that want to provide the service of charging cars should provide the investment themselves. There is enough burden on the average taxpayer without asking them to prop up supporting technology that should not be introduced until independent infrastructure is in place.


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I wonder if someone would do the mental math and figure out how many cars refuel per hour at a busy gas station during the day, and then mentally imagine how much land would be needed to charge cars parked for an hour or so while charging. Most people won't charge at home and have more than one car per household.

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peter67 wrote:

I wonder if someone would do the mental math and figure out how many cars refuel per hour at a busy gas station during the day, and then mentally imagine how much land would be needed to charge cars parked for an hour or so while charging. Most people won't charge at home and have more than one car per household.


 Yes I dont think anyone who is concerned want to do the sums.

What I was attempting in my post reply to dabbler was to acknowledge that he has an electric car and from his previous posts he appears to be responsible with solar charging and the like.

I am not privileged to relevant information regarding how many owners of electric cars charge them from a stand alone Solar at home.

If 100% of owners are doing it and new owners will do it then we dont need to do the sums. If this is the case then we dont have a problem.

The fact is

one,,,,,the logistics of charging these cars is horrendous.

two,,,,,If these cars are charging from our current supply from our power grid network then these cars ar not *green*

three,,,, If they are not *green* then their purchase and use is a waste of resources in a country where we hardly ever need them.

Lets do it the correct way around.

Lets build the infrastructure and the power stations that produce reliable *green* power 24/7 then introduce the electric cars.



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Ivan 01 wrote:
peter67 wrote:

I wonder if someone would do the mental math and figure out how many cars refuel per hour at a busy gas station during the day, and then mentally imagine how much land would be needed to charge cars parked for an hour or so while charging. Most people won't charge at home and have more than one car per household.


 Yes I dont think anyone who is concerned want to do the sums.

What I was attempting in my post reply to dabbler was to acknowledge that he has an electric car and from his previous posts he appears to be responsible with solar charging and the like.

I am not privileged to relevant information regarding how many owners of electric cars charge them from a stand alone Solar at home.

If 100% of owners are doing it and new owners will do it then we dont need to do the sums. If this is the case then we dont have a problem.

The fact is

one,,,,,the logistics of charging these cars is horrendous.

two,,,,,If these cars are charging from our current supply from our power grid network then these cars ar not *green*

three,,,, If they are not *green* then their purchase and use is a waste of resources in a country where we hardly ever need them.

Lets do it the correct way around.

Lets build the infrastructure and the power stations that produce reliable *green* power 24/7 then introduce the electric cars.


 Too much common sense in this post for many to understand, I fear. It seems to have been overlooked that consumers would need battery banks at home to charge their vehicles because  while the sun is shining many people are at work etc, The number of cars waiting to recharge at charging stations would result in lengthy queues, with some drivers inevitably ending up in the far queue. Cheers



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EVs can be the battery banks and can help spread the load on the electricity grid:

 

EV chargers for V2G and V2H to arrive in Australia within weeks, after long delays

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-02-14/electric-vehicle-first-ev-chargers-v2g-v2h-to-arrive-australia/100811130

 

Most of the EVs will not use up their entire charge within a day. They only need a top up at some stage. They can be used at night to balance the peak demand and then either charge later during the night or charge during the next day when there is peak renewable energy.

There are so many people who don't look for the solutions. Why?



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On average Australian cars drive roughly 13,000km per year. EVs use about 0.23kWh per km with the air conditioning running. So that is about 8.0kWh per vehicle per day.

People are getting their knickers in multiple knots charging EVs.

 

Not to forget the cost of imported fuel adding to Australia's deficit. That will now be funds available for other things.



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Buzz Lightbulb wrote:

EVs can be the battery banks and can help spread the load on the electricity grid:

 

EV chargers for V2G and V2H to arrive in Australia within weeks, after long delays

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-02-14/electric-vehicle-first-ev-chargers-v2g-v2h-to-arrive-australia/100811130

 

Most of the EVs will not use up their entire charge within a day. They only need a top up at some stage. They can be used at night to balance the peak demand and then either charge later during the night or charge during the next day when there is peak renewable energy.

 

There are so many people who don't look for the solutions. Why?


 No one is denying that in an urban enviroment they are a good choice, it may well be those in surburbia will charge their cars from the house mains, others will spend the extra to install a DC charger with 2 way power flow, the greatest impediament to those who live in high rise buildings that would need retro fitting of suitable hardware to enable EV charging, and then you have the additional problem of those who only have street parking available.

And then the rural and remote communities their EV is great for local driving, but usually you have to larger regional towns/cities many 100's of kilometers away which would present a whole raft of issues.

Where does farming, heavy transport, railways, grey nomads/ tourists etc fit into the EV world.

Its easy to look at the EV's with rose colored glasses, the infastructure is just not there yet, the solutions are there but who is going to pay for it ? the tax payer or private enterprise. If you expect the tax payer build it, it will be like the the Sydney harbour bridge flag pole, or the other great labor folly the NBN, its not finished yet and its billions over budget and still climbing. Private enterprise will want the government subsidise and offer big tax breaks, just look at the wind & solar farms most of them are foregn owned along with the big batteries.

Turn your attention to South Australia they have the highest household power prices for a state that is predominatly powered bt renewables, their power prices have never come down, you may ask why the foregin owners want to continue to maximise their return on investment.

Also reality is a bitch currently the average daily power generation is70-82% Fossil Fuel, 18-30% Renewables. So what would be a reasonable time frame to kick renewables up to 70% 5 years maybe 10 more likely 15-20 years.

Oh by the way Germany is now restarting their coal fired generators, and its not winter their yet.



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