Rear Axle Load

yobarr · Guru

RE: Rear Axle Load

montie · Guru

montie wrote:
know? Towing without a Hayman Reese Weight Distribution System can cause unnerving trailer sway, reduced steering and braking responsiveness, less traction and misaligned headlamps. Over time you may also notice a reduction in fuel economy and increased tyre wear. Hayman Reese Weight Distribution Systems improve safety, handling, control and comfort when towing. When using a Weight Distribution System, the ball weight remains the same, however, the load is evenly distributed across all of the axles. This restores the tow vehicle to its correct operating balance, carrying the caravan rather than dragging the load.
Copied directly from the HR website who, for many years have been manufacturing WDH's.
But what would they know amongst the experts on here!.
Time to move on guys....

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
KJB
I will say again scales measure force which is not expressed in Kg, but in Kg Wt. If various videos use the term Kg for weight they are wrong.
Alan

Alan, might I respectfully suggest that you stop posting rubbish about WDH systems, and that you give up on trying to change the laws of physics. All you're doing is causing doubt among some of our members who do not fully understand how a WDH works. You initiated this tripe over 2 years ago, and I , along with several other members, posted pages of information and facts in an effort to help you to understand that you were wrong. Because we had heard nothing further from you I believed that finally you'd seen the light. Now, 2 years later, you're back peddling the same rubbish. Previous dealings with you have alerted me to the fact that you don't actually READ posts, so I have included a screen shot of Montie's post from 5.28pm today. It is a quote direct from the HAYMAN REESE website, and I have highlighted the pertinent sentence. BALL WEIGHT REMAINS THE SAME. Perhaps you would do well to contact HR direct and inform them that, after 60 years designing, manufacturing and marketing weight distribution devices they STILL don't know what they're talking about. You might like to write a book "Physics, according to Alan". Only kidding, but I sincerely hope that FINALLY you've seen the light? Good luck. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 22nd of July 2022 06:15:41 PM

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr

I cant believe that you can't see from the facts I have posted that you still think you are right.

Again you post someones else's opinion to support your belief, but ignore the evidence.

Look again at my figures they are definitive.

If you wish to argue your case give an explanation as to why my figure show anything other than a reduction in towball download when the WDH is tensioned.

There are none so blind as those that WILL not see.

Alan

montie · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr
I cant believe that you can't see from the facts I have posted that you still think you are right.
Again you post someones else's opinion to support your belief, but ignore the evidence.
Look again at my figures they are definitive.
If you wish to argue your case give an explanation as to why my figure show anything other than a reduction in towball download when the WDH is tensioned.
There are none so blind as those that WILL not see.
Alan

Stop trolling!

The facts have been provided by the manufacturer Hayman Reece and others.

Brenda and Alan · Guru

montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr
I cant believe that you can't see from the facts I have posted that you still think you are right.
Again you post someones else's opinion to support your belief, but ignore the evidence.
Look again at my figures they are definitive.
If you wish to argue your case give an explanation as to why my figure show anything other than a reduction in towball download when the WDH is tensioned.
There are none so blind as those that WILL not see.
Alan
Stop trolling!
The facts have been provided by the manufacturer Hayman Reece and others.

I'm sorry but are you blind. The facts have been provided in the comparison of weights on scales.

Statements from other sources are just that, statements NOT facts. Have you even bothered to look at the figures I have shown or do you instinctive know your right.

Alan

montie · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr
I cant believe that you can't see from the facts I have posted that you still think you are right.
Again you post someones else's opinion to support your belief, but ignore the evidence.
Look again at my figures they are definitive.
If you wish to argue your case give an explanation as to why my figure show anything other than a reduction in towball download when the WDH is tensioned.
There are none so blind as those that WILL not see.
Alan
Stop trolling!
The facts have been provided by the manufacturer Hayman Reece and others.
I'm sorry but are you blind. The facts have been provided in the comparison of weights on scales.
Statements from other sources are just that, statements NOT facts. Have you even bothered to look at the figures I have shown or do you instinctive know your right.

Alan

Firstly mate I'm not blind.

The designer and manufacturer of the WDH system of more than 30 years has clearly given us the facts regarding ball download after the fitment of their WDH units.

Ball Weight does not change.

The fact that you have immersed yourself in your own little world of mathematics and equations does not change anything.

Instead of baiting posters on here it might be best that you contact Hayman Reece and point out to them the error of their ways....I'm sure they will be all ears...I'll look out for their press release!

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Montie

The facts are the tow bar download IS REDUCED when a WDH is tensioned. Look at the figures I have shown.

As you are a dealer do yourself a favour and take a car and van to you local weigh bridge and see first hand what happens. What all the supposed experts say does not fit with the facts.

As I have asked Yobarr to do, if you claim I am wrong give me sound reasoning and figures to prove your case.

Alan

montie · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Montie
The facts are the tow bar download IS REDUCED when a WDH is tensioned. Look at the figures I have shown.
As you are a dealer do yourself a favour and take a car and van to you local weigh bridge and see first hand what happens. What all the supposed experts say does not fit with the facts.
As I have asked Yobarr to do, if you claim I am wrong give me sound reasoning and figures to prove your case.
Alan

Unfortunately HR, the manufacturer of the hitch does not agree with you nor do I.

I suggest you take your calculations to them and ask them to prove their case.

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Gundog wrote:
As Alan has pointed out from this publication 60kg has been returned to the caravan axle group, in effect he is correct in this demo it clearly shows 160kg to the tug and 60kg to the van.
I have tried to crunch the numbers to asertain where the error is but I cannot find it, based on this it contradicts other statements by HR that the ball weight does not change.
Imagine if this was correct potentially a GTM could be exceeded.

I am amazed that this argument is still circulating on this forum which, on the whole, is made up of reasonably intelligent people.

I was the member who originally introduced this chart provided to me by HR. ( without the biro additions as a sample)

At that time I spoke to HR regarding a conflicting statement and I did explain to the forum that the reason they state the weight remains the same on the TB is to prevent an argument as might be presented by a person with an overloaded TBW situation.

HR went on to explain that the weight chart example is what actually happens when the WDH is connected and weighed on a weigh bridge.

This chart example has been shown and proved with demonstration on several different videos from different bodies.

This weight transfer has been proven several times with different examples on here.

It is simple that if the weight of the rear axle of the tow vehicle becomes lighter by transferring some of that weight to the front axle of that tow vehicle and a small proportion to the van axles when the WDH is connected, then the weight that is exerted downward on the ball is less. It can only be less. If it remains the same in the practice example on the weigh bridge then we have a magic trick happening.

Brenda and Allan is correct and deserves an opposing answer or explanation to some of the condescending comments being made toward that member.

Gundog is correct.

In theory and bad practice a GTM could possibly be exceeded while weighing with the WDH connected.
As this was explained to me by the guy I spoke to at HR is that when weighing the combination when the tolerances of being that close are experienced for policing purposes, a driver will be asked to disconnect the combination so as to ascertain if in fact, the combination is legal or not legal.

It is at this point that the TBW will be assessed as legal or illegal or should we just use the term, comply.

From my observation the argument here is based on the views of those who refuse to accept that a WDH improves stability and safety.

If anyone doesnt want to use a WDH well dont, but stop continually pushing down the throats of others that they are operating dangerously.

As someone else said, if a vehicle manufacturer recommends its use then the whole argument stops there.

So if the others cant or wont support this proven theory then as you might suggest your selves, just let it go.

Allan is not a troll.

He asked a question and deserves an answer, he does not deserve ridicule. Because no one can answer him does not make him a troll, more to the point op it makes a few others very ill informed.

-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Sunday 24th of July 2022 09:48:24 AM

Plain Truth · Guru

If Alan stands on the tow ball, and someone applies the WDH. Explain to us how he becomes magically lighter?

yobarr · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:
Gundog wrote:
As Alan has pointed out from this publication 60kg has been returned to the caravan axle group, in effect he is correct in this demo it clearly shows 160kg to the tug and 60kg to the van.
I have tried to crunch the numbers to asertain where the error is but I cannot find it, based on this it contradicts other statements by HR that the ball weight does not change.
Imagine if this was correct potentially a GTM could be exceeded.
I am amazed that this argument is still circulating on this forum which, on the whole, is made up of reasonably intelligent people.
I was the member who originally introduced this chart provided to me by HR. ( without the biro additions as a sample)
At that time I spoke to HR regarding a conflicting statement and I did explain to the forum that the reason they state the weight remains the same on the TB is to prevent an argument as might be presented by a person with an overloaded TBW situation.
HR went on to explain that the weight chart example is what actually happens when the WDH is connected and weighed on a weigh bridge.
This chart example has been shown and proved with demonstration on several different videos from different bodies.
This weight transfer has been proven several times with different examples on here.
It is simple that if the weight of the rear axle of the tow vehicle becomes lighter by transferring some of that weight to the front axle of that tow vehicle and a small proportion to the van axles when the WDH is connected, then the weight that is exerted downward on the ball is less. It can only be less. If it remains the same in the practice example on the weigh bridge then we have a magic trick happening.
Brenda and Allan is correct and deserves an opposing answer or explanation to some of the condescending comments being made toward that member.
Gundog is correct.
In theory and bad practice a GTM could possibly be exceeded while weighing with the WDH connected.
As this was explained to me by the guy I spoke to at HR is that when weighing the combination when the tolerances of being that close are experienced for policing purposes, a driver will be asked to disconnect the combination so as to ascertain if in fact, the combination is legal or not legal.
It is at this point that the TBW will be assessed as legal or illegal or should we just use the term, comply.
From my observation the argument here is based on the views of those who refuse to accept that a WDH improves stability and safety.
If anyone doesnt want to use a WDH well dont, but stop continually pushing down the throats of others that they are operating dangerously.

As someone else said, if a vehicle manufacturer recommends its use then the whole argument stops there.
So if the others cant or wont support this proven theory then as you might suggest your selves, just let it go.

Allan is not a troll.
He asked a question and deserves an answer, he does not deserve ridicule. Because no one can answer him does not make him a troll, more to the point op it makes a few others very ill informed.

Sorry Stu, but what you write is 100% incorrect. Many many times I have explained WHY what you say is wrong, along with many p references to Collyn River's RV books, John Cadogan's many videos, advice from many people involved in weights and dynamics and my own extensive testing with a WDH on my car. Towball weight NEVER changes when a WDH is used, although the clamping pressure between the towball and the hitch head increases. Because of opposing forces the actual weight bearing down on the towball structure remains constant. The rear axle loses weight, with about 30% of transferred weight going on to the van's wheels and about 70% of transferred weight being returned to the car's front wheels. Towball weight remains tge same. NOT negotiable, sorry, although the percentages of distribution will vary dependent on TBO, wheelbase and forward length of van. What you and Alan say doesn't bother me but I AM concerned that newbies and others who know little about weights, or are seeking reassurance that all is good, will eagerly accept that what you suggest is fact. It isn't. Cheers

P.S Later today I will PM you with my figures in an effort to help you understand, but all you're doing here is causing total confusion for many. Cheers

KJB · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:
If Alan stands on the tow ball, and someone applies the WDH. Explain to us how he becomes magically lighter?

Put the Scales between him and the Tow Ball/Coupling - you will see he weighs exactly the same with or without the WDH engaged. ..... KB

( I assume you mean "Stand on the Coupling attached to the Tow Ball")

-- Edited by KJB on Sunday 24th of July 2022 10:55:01 AM

-- Edited by KJB on Sunday 24th of July 2022 10:55:57 AM

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Yobarr, no need to bother sending me a PM.

I do not intend to argue about the Weight Distribution Hitch.

Do you even notice that it is called a Weight Distribution Hitch.
It is because it distributes weight to make the vehicle combination just a bit safer.

If it didnt do this then the use of the hitch would be against the law.

My opinion is that your constant input into this and other topics on WDHs is based on the fact that you need to display to all and sundry how you have your vehicle set up and to show that in your opinion, all others are incorrect.

Because you have your vehicle set up without WDH, with household air con, with solar which according to you is better than anyone elses, because you use a D035 with the most perfect 79 series and so on and so on, doesnt mean that you are correct all it indicates is that you are happy.

To constantly ridicule others is not acceptable.

WDH use is not illegal and therefore yours and others opinion is only just that, an opinion.

When all else turns to bull$hit the weighbridge proves the physics behind the WDH

From memory the other topic was either locked or removed which unfortunately permits you and some others to start this $hit yet again.

I said this above and I mean it.

*If anyone doesnt want to use a WDH well dont, but stop continually pushing down the throats of others that they are operating dangerously.*

As the same as some others, I dont need you to continue to tell me how unsafe anyone who uses a WDH is.

Answer Alans simple question or give it a rest. We are all sick of it.

Oh! And to reply to your first statement above.

You have explained nothing.

-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Sunday 24th of July 2022 11:41:43 AM

yobarr · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:
If Alan stands on the tow ball, and someone applies the WDH. Explain to us how he becomes magically lighter?

Alan started this rubbish back on May 6th, 2020, and I then devoted many hours documenting facts, data and references to show him that he was wrong. Because he had not raised the subject since, I assumed he'd eventually seen the light, but now this. Quite frankly, I've about had enough of trying to help someone who knows little, understands less and has no apparent interest in learning, but I will post a screen shot of some of the relevant correspondence for perusal. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but I believe that it is abhorrent that their distorted interpretation of the facts is presented to other unsuspecting members of out forum, who are none the wiser and may act on it. IF the supplied chart is studied and analysed it can clearly be shown to be a nonsense with towball weight listed as zero. Yeah, right! As Montie suggested waaay back,Jenny Craig would probably be most interested in learning how to achieve this magical loss! Anybody who is interested in actually LEARNING would do well to search for a thread titled "The effects of using a WDH" which was started on this forum on May 6,2020. Information supplied there should assist even the most challenged among us, but simply looking at the figures supplied directly below here should be enough. Towball weight ZERO. Yeah, right. Cheers

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

This says it in a nutshell,

As someone else said, if a vehicle manufacturer recommends its use then the whole argument stops there.

yobarr · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:
This says it in a nutshell,

As someone else said, if a vehicle manufacturer recommends its use then the whole argument stops there.

Stu, as a truckie you would understand that manufacturers who recommend the use of a WDH do so for many reasons, but the 2 most common reasons are 1) Monocoque construction (Think 'Egg shells') and 2) Low rear axle carrying capacity. Indeed, one manufacturer allows up to 250kg towball weight when towing less than 2500kg ATM but once over 2500kg, all the way up to its 3000kg ALLEGED towing capacity, towball weight is not to exceed 180kg or 6%. Anybody who wants to tow 3000kg at 6% towball weight with a car that has low GVM is likely to, and deserves to, go RSup at the earliest opportunity. You also would be aware that if a truck has a GVM above 4500kg any PIG trailer it tows must weigh less than the truck? This is intended to promote safe towing and is the reason we had to put a few buckets of dirt on the truck when moving excavators etc on our big PIG trailers. The sooner such a law is enacted for ALL vehicles towing PIG trailers (caravans) the safer we all will be.

montie · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:
If Alan stands on the tow ball, and someone applies the WDH. Explain to us how he becomes magically lighter?

He doesn't.

I used a similar example in a previous thread (one of many on this topic), where I placed theoretical 250kg concrete block on the tugs tow bar. Now, it doesn't matter what you do with the tow bar from there the only way you can get rid of the 250kg imposed or make it lighter,is to remove the concrete block. A WDH distributes weight it doesn't remove it.

We are going around in circles here, this topic has been done to death in previous threads. We are just going over old ground to arrive at the same conclusion.

-- Edited by montie on Sunday 24th of July 2022 01:03:41 PM

boab · Senior Member

putting a concrete block on the tugs tow bar is not the same as having a caravan connected and if that has to be explained why i doubt you would understand

yobarr · Guru

boab wrote:
putting a concrete block on the tugs tow bar is not the same as having a caravan connected and if that has to be explained why i doubt you would understand

Surely you jest? How is the weight imposed by a caravan's drawbar different from the weight imposed by a concrete block if both weights are applied at the same point? (Towball) Back to primary school for you! Cheers

montie · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:
If Alan stands on the tow ball, and someone applies the WDH. Explain to us how he becomes magically lighter?

If he does I think Jenny Craig would be very interested in acquiring the system! yawn

Don't worry about the diet plan just get a WDH....it makes weight disappear! biggrin

-- Edited by montie on Sunday 24th of July 2022 03:01:45 PM

boab · Senior Member

maybe because a caravan is not a dead weight on the tow ball its part of the caravan weight which is pivoting on its axle so0 the weight can be transferred from the tow ball back onto the axle simple physics for some one with an IQ up in the clouds you dont appear to use it

boab · Senior Member

by the way i dont care if the towball weight is more or less with a wdh your the expert and you seem to be telling every one that the engineers the make these things are either wrong or are lying to the public something you would never do i'm sure

yobarr · Guru

boab wrote:
by the way i dont care if the towball weight is more or less with a wdh your the expert and you seem to be telling every one that the engineers the make these things are either wrong or are lying to the public something you would never do i'm sure

Sorry Gary, but as usual your post makes little sense. Contrary to your assertions I am indeed agreeing with the Engineers, who clearly state that a WDH DOES NOT change towball weight. Never have I disagreed with the assertions of WDH engineers, but I do sometimes disagree with the claims made by their marketing division, whose job it is to peddle these things to anybody who'll listen. If you "don't care if the towball weight is more or less with a WDH" what is the purpose of your posts? Great to see, however, that you understand that the "caravan is not a dead weight on the towball" but the rest of that post makes absolutely no sense at all. As always, you seem more intent on denigrating me than in making any useful contribution to the discussion. And you might like to know that, other than at the actual hitchnpoint , there doesn't need to be any pivot for a WDH to transfer weight. Cheers

P.S The story below may point out to members a few home truths about WDHs, but I am obliged to advise that it is simply a screen shot from one of the many books written by Collyn Rivers. As can be seen, a WDH REDUCES cornering ability (safety?) by about 25% and should never be used to level the vehicles, with no more than 50% restoration being acceptable, but a mere 25% being suggested. Why bother? Ever heard of oversteer?

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Plain truth.

This is the major problem with your and others understanding. Towball download in a force exerted due to the centre of gravity of the van being forward of the axles. It is certainly not a big lump of lead sitting on the towball.

There appears to be poor understanding of the difference between mass and force on this forum by quite a few members.

Alan

Brenda and Alan · Guru

boab wrote:
maybe because a caravan is not a dead weight on the tow ball its part of the caravan weight which is pivoting on its axle so0 the weight can be transferred from the tow ball back onto the axle simple physics for some one with an IQ up in the clouds you dont appear to use it

Boab .

That is precisely what happens. This idea that some have of towball weight being represented as a block of concrete sitting on the towball is what prevents them from seeing the truth of my assertion.

Alan

Gundog · Guru

P.S The story below may point out to members a few home truths about WDHs, but I am obliged to advise that it is simply a screen shot from one of the many books written by Collyn Rivers. As can be seen, a WDH REDUCES cornering ability (safety?) by about 25% and should never be used to level the vehicles, with no more than 50% restoration being acceptable, but a mere 25% being suggested. Why bother? Ever heard of oversteer?

Here we go again we miss representing what is said in SAE J2807, please read the full document and you will see that J2807 is aa procedure to rate trucks in the 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton market to to establish towing and load capacities.

Within that document SAE uses 1 style of WDH without sway control, using A setting 50% FALR, as a control measure for testing sequence.

Cequent the then owners of Reece and HR, I visited their US web site ascertain what their recommendations were for FALR, on their range of WDH'S only one model in their entire range mentioned 50% FALR, but what was consistent across was the method in the application and setup of the hitch.

I had this same issue with CR on another forum, when challenged about J2807 on WDH application he retreated from his position and went defensive.

It's easy to pick bits and pieces from various opinions to create an illusion of fact or truth.

And I say this without qualification that a WDH is not necessary in all circumstances, but if your vehicle's manufacture demands or reccomends their use, then do so they are the foremost experts not some forum self appointed expert.

I have approximately 100,000km towing while using a weight distribution hitch.

KJB · Guru

boab wrote:
maybe because a caravan is not a dead weight on the tow ball its part of the caravan weight which is pivoting on its axle so0 the weight can be transferred from the tow ball back onto the axle simple physics for some one with an IQ up in the clouds you dont appear to use it

Maybe this is the "misunderstanding "- a Human is a "live weight" and Concrete is " dead weight" !!!!!! This has all become ridiculous...... KB

boab · Senior Member

a block of concrete on the tow ball is no different than having a person sit on the back seat of the car. A trailer sits on the ground with part of its weight on the tow ball you cant apply a wdh to any tow bar with out a trailer of some sort and if you cant understand that i cant explain it thats why these devises are called weight distribution hitches

yobarr · Guru

KJB wrote:
boab wrote:
maybe because a caravan is not a dead weight on the tow ball its part of the caravan weight which is pivoting on its axle so0 the weight can be transferred from the tow ball back onto the axle simple physics for some one with an IQ up in the clouds you dont appear to use it
Maybe this is the "misunderstanding "- a Human is a "live weight" and Concrete is " dead weight" !!!!!! This has all become ridiculous...... KB

After much consideration I have determined that the only "dead weight" some people have any relationship with is above shoulder level. Despite pages and pages of indesputable evidence being supplied, some people still cannot understand that a WDH does NOT change towball weight. All I can now do is again suggest that instead of continuing to post absolute rubbish on a site that no doubt is used by newbies and others to learn about weights, these delusional individuals should instead CONTACT HAYMAN REESE direct and let them know that despite 60 years of designing and building WDH systems, they STILL don't know what they're talking about. I'm sure that they'd be keen to learn?. In the interim we can only hope that the rubbish these guys sprout doesn't negatively influence some poor unsuspecting newbie who simply is trying to learn about weights, and has accessed our forum for that purpose. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 25th of July 2022 04:45:38 PM