Rear Axle Load

Are We Lost · Guru

Rear Axle Load

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr wrote

I cannot follow this. Where did the 1910 come from?

A WDH changes "axle weights" - not TBW .

Yobarr

I have reattached the Haymen-reece chart, look at the scale weights for the car in the second row.

You are even worse with arithmetic than I thought or you are obfuscating because you cannot refute with logical argument what i have shown clearly to be the case.

Alan

-

-- Edited by KJB on Tuesday 19th of July 2022 09:38:47 AM

-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 06:29:34 AM

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:

Yobarr wrote
I cannot follow this. Where did the 1910 come from?
A WDH changes "axle weights" - not TBW .

Yobarr
I have reattached the Haymen-reece chart, look at the scale weights for the car in the second row.
You are even worse with arithmetic than I thought or you are obfuscating because you cannot refute with logical argument what i have shown clearly to be the case.
Alan
Alan, what on Earth are you dribbling-on about now? The words that you have quoted above were not even written by me! Seems to me that not only do you have a total misunderstanding of the effects of WDHs but you can't even follow a thread that explains such. Everything that I have written about WDHs is confirmed on the HR website as well as in dozens of articles published by various weights experts such as Collyn Rivers, Mark Oastler and many many others, as well as Montie, our resident RV expert, and many of our more enlightened members. All you're doing with your continued onslaught of unmitigated garbage is cause doubt and confusion among members who are yet to learn about the real effects of using a WDH. Have you ever considered actually sitting down and studying the submitted facts rather than continually waffling-on about things that you clearly do not understand,. Tge rubbish you write only causes confusion among those who have let to learn the facts? Good luck with your study. Cheers
P.S Great to see that you've re-attached the Hayman Reese chart that I posted yesterday, so perhaps you didn't even view that post? The chart is simply a starting point and rough guide for newbies, but once analysed is a nonsense, as I have illustrated in earlier posts. The chart does however show that the total weight on the axles of the car and the van are exactly the same with or without a tensioned WDH, which clearly means that towball weight has remained constant.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 12:42:03 PM

Gundog · Guru

As Alan has pointed out from this publication 60kg has been returned to the caravan axle group, in effect he is correct in this demo it clearly shows 160kg to the tug and 60kg to the van.

I have tried to crunch the numbers to asertain where the error is but I cannot find it, based on this it contradicts other statements by HR that the ball weight does not change.

Imagine if this was correct potentially a GTM could be exceeded.

yobarr · Guru

Gundog wrote:
As Alan has pointed out from this publication 60kg has been returned to the caravan axle group, in effect he is correct in this demo it clearly shows 160kg to the tug and 60kg to the van.
I have tried to crunch the numbers to asertain where the error is but I cannot find it, based on this it contradicts other statements by HR that the ball weight does not change.
Imagine if this was correct potentially a GTM could be exceeded.

Hi Graham, The highlighted text above is exactly what I have been saying for eons, and most members are now aware of this. Because towball weight NEVER changes with a WDH but it also likely that ATM will be exceeded. Can I suggest that you too view the video by John Cadogan that clearly shows the physics involved abd the effects of a WDH. Cheers

WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. NEVER HAS. NEVER WILL.

Gundog · Guru

yobarr wrote:

Hi Graham, The highlighted text above is exactly what I have been saying for eons, and most members are now aware of this. Because towball weight NEVER changes with a WDH but it also likely that ATM will be exceeded. Can I suggest that you too view the video by John Cadogan that clearly shows the physics involved abd the effects of a WDH. Cheers
WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. NEVER HAS. NEVER WILL.

In this instance you are do the math with picture, explain where the 60kg it comes all those black and red notations on the picture are mine. We are not talking about John Cadogan, he has nothing to do with this document we are explaining a Haymen Reece supplied document, which I believe there is an error in the numbers.

But now I realize why Alan is addament the spread of towball weight between Tug and Van, the document can and is leading people astray.

I wonder if the was blue numbers would what should have been.

I must admit because I load sharing suspension I never weigh the axles singlery always as a group, if you non load sharing axles then it would be important to weigh them individually.

-- Edited by Gundog on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 01:08:13 PM

yobarr · Guru

Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Hi Graham, The highlighted text above is exactly what I have been saying for eons, and most members are now aware of this. Because towball weight NEVER changes with a WDH but it also likely that ATM will be exceeded. Can I suggest that you too view the video by John Cadogan that clearly shows the physics involved abd the effects of a WDH. Cheers
WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. NEVER HAS. NEVER WILL.
In this instance you are do the math with picture, explain where the 60kg it comes all those black and red notations on the picture are mine. We are not talking about John Cadogan, he has nothing to do with this document we are explaining a Haymen Reece supplied document, which I believe there is an error in the numbers.
But now I realize why Alan is addament the spread of towball weight between Tug and Van, the document can and is leading people astray.
I wonder if the was blue numbers would what should have been.

I must admit because I load sharing suspension I never weigh the axles singlery always as a group, if you non load sharing axles then it would be important to weigh them individually.

As I have previously said, this chart seems to have been set up in an attempt to assist those with NO idea of the physics and effects of a WDH. You seem to be further confusing things with illogical conclusions. Firstly John Cadogan has EVERYTHING to do with understanding how a WDH works, as this is clearly explained and demonstrated in his video,which is why I suggest that you and others view same. Both he and Hayman Reese clearly state that a WDH does NOT change towball weight. You then would understand that the chart is merely a guide to help learners. Now to your suggested blue figures, which are wrong. The total weight on the wheels of the car and van is 3140kg, and is the same with and without without the WDH, as you would expect. Total weight on van wheels without WDH is 1230kg. Total weight on car wheels without WDH is 1910kg. Total weight (GCM?) is 3140kg. Agreed? NOW we tension the WDH. Total weight on van wheels with WDH changes to 1290kg. Total weight on car wheels with WDH changes to 1850kg. GCM still is 3140kg BUT it is plain to see that 60kg has been removed from the car and transferred to the van. This is what a WDH does. It simply redistributes the total weight. It DOES NOT change towball weight. No weight appears or disappears. The reason that the van's respective axle weights have changed is that the WDH has raised the back of the car, so obviously the towball is higher off the ground, which shifts weight from the front axle of the van (630kg down to 620kg) to the rear axle of the van which also has gained the whole 60kg of transferred weight. (600kg plus 10kg from van front axle plus 60kg transferred from car's rear axle=670kg) . This example obviously is using a van with non-loadsharing suspension, because to use a load-sharing suspension would only serve to further confuse those who have no clear understanding of physics. Can I respectfully ask that you study my figures in an effort to understand how a WDH works as I have just about had enough of trying to help people who don't seem to want to be helped. From the replies that I get to my posts it is blatantly obvious that the reader has only looked at the the post, and has not read and understood it before blindly putting pen to paper, so to speak. Lately I have had PMs from other members asking me why I even bother, as it is obvious that some on our forum just don't want to learn, but I peresevere simply because if my efforts save only one person from an accident where they suffer financial ruin when they are told that they're uninsured because their vehicle was overloaded and uninsured, it will all be worth it. Cheers

P.S You might like to read about the accident near Wauchope where an overloaded van was involved in an accident that killed two passengers. The driver, Stephen George Russell, has been jailed for at least 2 years. With weights it simply is not worth it for people to come up their own ill-considered half-baked theories that argue with Engineers, designers, manufacturers, physics and the simple facts when lives are potentially at risk.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 05:55:38 PM

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr your still using waffle and side stepping.

Explain logically why the weight on the cars wheels is reduced when the WDH is tensioned.

The weight on the cars wheels comes from two things.

1 The mass of the car which cant change. this accounts for 1690 Kg Wt

2 the tow bar download.

So the decrease can ONLY be from a corresponding decreae in towbar download.

Alan

.

montie · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr your still using waffle and side stepping.
Explain logically why the weight on the cars wheels is reduced when the WDH is tensioned.
The weight on the cars wheels comes from two things.
1 The mass of the car which cant change. this accounts for 1690 Kg Wt
2 the tow bar download.
So the decrease can ONLY be from a corresponding decreae in towbar download.
Alan
.

Oh dear!

I can't believe that after all that's been written on this forum about ball download and WDH some posters are still not getting it!

KJB · Guru

montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr your still using waffle and side stepping.
Explain logically why the weight on the cars wheels is reduced when the WDH is tensioned.
The weight on the cars wheels comes from two things.
1 The mass of the car which cant change. this accounts for 1690 Kg Wt
2 the tow bar download.
So the decrease can ONLY be from a corresponding decreae in towbar download.
Alan
.
Oh dear!
I can't believe that after all that's been written on this forum about ball download and WDH some posters are still not getting it!

It is not hard . It is just "simple physics"...that has been more than "well explained" here .......

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr your still using waffle and side stepping.
Explain logically why the weight on the cars wheels is reduced when the WDH is tensioned.
The weight on the cars wheels comes from two things.
1 The mass of the car which cant change. this accounts for 1690 Kg Wt
2 the tow bar download.
So the decrease can ONLY be from a corresponding decreae in towbar download.
Alan

Rather than have me waste any more of my time having to repeatedly point out to you what is so blatantly obvious to anyone with even a basic understanding of physics and dynamics perhaps you could instead spend your time writing to Collyn Rivers (RV books) who has over 60 years experience with weights and dynamics, as well as advanced suspension design. Collyn has written many books about WDHs and weights in general, and is regarded worldwide as an expert in his field, but I'm sure he'd welcome your input, pointing out that he is mistaken. I can supply his contact details via PM if you wish. You may then wish to correspond with Hayman Reese, who have been designing, manufacturing and marketing WDH systems for more than 60 years, and are considered world leaders in their field. They will likely be most interested to learn, that after all these years, and millions of sales they really have no idea at all about WDHs, and all the information supplied on their website is incorrect.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 08:40:25 PM

Are We Lost · Guru

Yobarr, in my post last night I said I would stop pursuing you for an answer on what happens to the other 70% of the load the bars pull down on the drawbar. It seems you can explain quite well what happens when you use a WDH, but not how it achieves that. Surely you can appreciate the difference. So here is my explanation on what makes the WDH work and what happens to that other 70%.

A caravan has two support points .... the wheels onto the road, and the coupling onto the towball. Yobarr says 30% of the weight from the WDH bars are apportioned to the rear axle. I think it would typically be a bit less, but will accept that 30%. To me at least, it is pretty obvious that if 30% of the weight from the WDH is apportioned to the wheels, then the remaining 70% must be apportioned to the coupling.

Here is an image I captured from one of HRs promotional videos, showing a fitted HR WDH. I added the arrows and weights. In the example, the bars are providing 200kg of lift at the hitch assembly.

HR WDH 2.jpg

When the bars are tensioned they provide a lifting force at the hitch assembly. Technically, its a rotational force with the fulcrum being the front wheels. But for our purposes, the angle of rotation is only small, so there is negligible difference from a straight lift.

Earlier, someone mentioned a similarity with a wheelbarrow. Yes, exactly like that. It is actually called a "second class lever". The weight at the handles is the least, and the closer to the wheelbarrow wheel you lift from, the harder it will be to lift. At the same time, when the back is lifted, more weight is borne by the front wheel. The second class lever principle is the first component that makes a WDH work.

Back to the car ..... So, while there may be 200kg of lift at the hitch assembly, the weight at the end of the bars will be less.. 160kg in this example.

On the drawbar, a slightly different principle applies. The van is supported at two points .... the wheels on the road, and the coupling on the towball. In this case, the tensioned WDH bars are weighing down the drawbar part way between those support points. So those support points share the load. 30% percent goes to the axles and 70% goes to the coupling.

The van wheels carry an extra 48kg while the coupling carries an extra 112kg. In both cases, those weights then find their way to the ground ... van wheels to the ground, while the weight on the coupling is onto the towball and hitch assembly, and then apportioned to the front and back wheels of the car.

Putting it together. The net effect on the hitch assembly is the key. The rear of the vehicle at the hitch is being lifted by 200kg. At the same time the coupling is adding 112kg via the towball. So, effectively the net effect is 88kg less weight at the hitch assembly. So the rear end lifts by a few centimetres. The weight taken off the car rear wheels has now been apportioned to the car front wheels and the van wheels.

That is the principle of how the HR system works.

So why would HR say the towball weight does not change, when clearly it does? If you look at their table it shows 0 towball weight once connected. Clearly that can't be right either. I believe they do not show it because once connected, all weight is apportioned to the wheels and to list it would be confusing.

In a way, its irrelevant what the towball load is once connected. Its just one component of the mechanism that makes the system work. Similarly they don't show the uplift from the bars. But to say the towball weight does not change is clearly wrong. If it did not change, the WDH could not work.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 08:13:34 PM

montie · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Yobarr, in my post last night I said I would stop pursuing you for an answer on what happens to the other 70% of the load the bars pull down on the drawbar. It seems you can explain quite well what happens when you use a WDH, but not how it achieves that. Surely you can appreciate the difference. So here is my explanation on what makes the WDH work.

A caravan has two support points .... the wheels onto the road, and the coupling onto the towball. Yobarr says 30% of the weight from the WDH bars are apportioned to the rear axle. I think it would typically be a bit less, but will accept that 30%. To me at least, it is pretty obvious that if 30% of the weight from the WDH is apportioned to the wheels, then the remaining 70% must be apportioned to the coupling.
Here is an image I captured from one of HRs promotional videos, showing a fitted HR WDH. I added the arrows and weights. In the example, the bars are providing 200kg of lift at the hitch assembly.

When the bars are tensioned they provide a lifting force at the hitch assembly. Technically, its a rotational force with the fulcrum being the front wheels. But for our purposes, the angle of rotation is only small, so there is negligible difference from a straight lift.

Earlier, someone mentioned a similarity with a wheelbarrow. Yes, exactly like that. It is actually called a "second class lever". The second class lever principle is the first component that makes a WDH work. The weight at the handles is the least, and the closer to the wheelbarrow wheel you lift from, the harder it will be to lift. At the same time, when the back is lifted, more weight is borne by the front wheel.
Back to the car ..... So, while there may be 200kg of lift at the hitch assembly, the weight at the end of the bars will be less.. 160kg in this example.
On the drawbar, a slightly different principle applies. The van is supported at two points .... the wheels on the road, and the coupling on the towball. In this case, the tensioned WDH bars are weighing down the drawbar part way between those support points. So those support points share the load. 30% percent goes to the axles and 70% goes to the coupling.
The van wheels carry an extra 48kg while the coupling carries an extra 112kg. In both cases, those weights then find their way to the ground ... van wheels to the ground, while the weight on the coupling is onto the towball and hitch assembly, and then apportioned to the front and back wheels of the car.
Putting it together. The net effect on the hitch assembly is the key. The rear of the vehicle at the hitch is being lifted by 200kg. At the same time the coupling is adding 112kg via the towball. So, effectively the net effect is 88kg less weight at the hitch assembly. So the rear end lifts by a few centimetres. The weight taken off the car rear wheels has now been apportioned to the car front wheels and the van wheels.

That is the principle of how the HR system works.

So why would HR say the towball weight does not change, when clearly it does? If you look at their table it shows 0 towball weight once connected. Clearly that can't be right either. I believe they do not show it because once connected, all weight is apportioned to the wheels and to list it would be confusing.
In a way, its irrelevant what the towball load is once connected. Its just one component of the mechanism that makes the system work. Similarly they don't show the uplift from the bars. But to say the towball weight does not change is clearly wrong. If it did not change, the WDH could not work.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 08:06:56 PM

Oh dear! Another one.

I really can't help wondering if some posters are not baiting here.

I have no intention of explaining again how a WDH ( Weight Distribution Hitch) works...other than to say it's purpose is to distribute weight from the tug rear axle to the front axle and a small percentage to the van wheels. The reason for this distribution is caused by the weight imposed on the tugs ball coupling which remains unchanged.

Guys, it might be time to move on.....we've beaten this one to death!

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
Yobarr, in my post last night I said I would stop pursuing you for an answer on what happens to the other 70% of the load the bars pull down on the drawbar. It seems you can explain quite well what happens when you use a WDH, but not how it achieves that. Surely you can appreciate the difference. So here is my explanation on what makes the WDH work.

A caravan has two support points .... the wheels onto the road, and the coupling onto the towball. Yobarr says 30% of the weight from the WDH bars are apportioned to the rear axle. I think it would typically be a bit less, but will accept that 30%. To me at least, it is pretty obvious that if 30% of the weight from the WDH is apportioned to the wheels, then the remaining 70% must be apportioned to the coupling.
Here is an image I captured from one of HRs promotional videos, showing a fitted HR WDH. I added the arrows and weights. In the example, the bars are providing 200kg of lift at the hitch assembly.

When the bars are tensioned they provide a lifting force at the hitch assembly. Technically, its a rotational force with the fulcrum being the front wheels. But for our purposes, the angle of rotation is only small, so there is negligible difference from a straight lift.

Earlier, someone mentioned a similarity with a wheelbarrow. Yes, exactly like that. It is actually called a "second class lever". The second class lever principle is the first component that makes a WDH work. The weight at the handles is the least, and the closer to the wheelbarrow wheel you lift from, the harder it will be to lift. At the same time, when the back is lifted, more weight is borne by the front wheel.
Back to the car ..... So, while there may be 200kg of lift at the hitch assembly, the weight at the end of the bars will be less.. 160kg in this example.
On the drawbar, a slightly different principle applies. The van is supported at two points .... the wheels on the road, and the coupling on the towball. In this case, the tensioned WDH bars are weighing down the drawbar part way between those support points. So those support points share the load. 30% percent goes to the axles and 70% goes to the coupling.
The van wheels carry an extra 48kg while the coupling carries an extra 112kg. In both cases, those weights then find their way to the ground ... van wheels to the ground, while the weight on the coupling is onto the towball and hitch assembly, and then apportioned to the front and back wheels of the car.
Putting it together. The net effect on the hitch assembly is the key. The rear of the vehicle at the hitch is being lifted by 200kg. At the same time the coupling is adding 112kg via the towball. So, effectively the net effect is 88kg less weight at the hitch assembly. So the rear end lifts by a few centimetres. The weight taken off the car rear wheels has now been apportioned to the car front wheels and the van wheels.

That is the principle of how the HR system works.

So why would HR say the towball weight does not change, when clearly it does? If you look at their table it shows 0 towball weight once connected. Clearly that can't be right either. I believe they do not show it because once connected, all weight is apportioned to the wheels and to list it would be confusing.
In a way, its irrelevant what the towball load is once connected. Its just one component of the mechanism that makes the system work. Similarly they don't show the uplift from the bars. But to say the towball weight does not change is clearly wrong. If it did not change, the WDH could not work.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 08:06:56 PM
Oh dear! Another one.
I really can't help wondering if some posters are not baiting here.
I have no intention of explaining again how a WDH ( Weight Distribution Hitch) works...other than to say it's purpose is to distribute weight from the tug rear axle to the front axle and a small percentage to the van wheels. The reason for this distribution is caused by the weight imposed on the tugs ball coupling which remains unchanged.

Guys, it might be time to move on.....we've beaten this one to death!

Thanks again Montie for your support. I've done about as much as I can do to factually respond to the various hare-brained theories and ideas that have been promoted by some members on our forum in an apparent effort to change the laws of physics. (And common sense). Whilst there is little doubt that these members are sincere in their assertions, instead of continually disputing our representations, and those of recognised experts in this field, perhaps these same members would be well advised to actually READ my post made today at 7.08pm. The last couple of posts only confirm that my post has not been read, let alone understood, so I have supplied an abridged screen shot for consideration. In summary, if anyone STILL doesn't understand that a WDH does NOT change towball weight, rather than argue here they should at least do the right thing and inform Hayman Reese, Collyn Rivers, Mark Oastler and myriad advisors that, after 60 years in the business they STILL do not know what they're talking about. Good luck with that too. Cheers

P.S Yes Montie, sometimes I do wonder if I am just being baited on here, as some of the disputing of simple physics is beyond stupid. C'est la vie.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 20th of July 2022 09:48:35 PM

Gundog · Guru

This comes from an American motor site that listed the top 10 weight distribution hitches, Anderson came out as number 1, there was a few other models that are available in Australia on the list, but Haymen Reese was not there, in the first paragraph seems to contradicts yobarr and monties assumptions of where the weight is distributed to.

How Does a Weight Distributing Hitch Work?

A weight distributing hitch uses leverage to spread the weight of the trailer from just the hitch to the whole tow vehicle. A trailer without a weight distributing hitch will focus all of its weight onto the small surface area of the hitch ball and shank. This can cause the rear end of your truck or SUV to sag, which may make it susceptible to trailer sway and bounce, and reduces your ability to remain in control of the vehicle when traveling.

A weight distributing hitch is specially designed to spread the weight of your trailer to a larger surface area, reducing rear end sag and helping to keep the trailer even and in line with your vehicle. They can also help with cornering stability when towing, when directing the weight of the trailer to one side of the vehicle.

Think of it this way: Take a frying pan with a handle on it and press down a half inch out on the handle. If the pan is your vehicle, where youre pressing down is like the weight of a trailer on the hitch, which sticks out a little bit from the end of your vehicle. Adding the arms of a weight distributing hitch is like keeping one finger pressing down where it was but lifting up on the end of the handle with your other hand. Now, youre pressing the front of the pan (your car) down, too.

The other thing a weight distributing hitch can help with is sway controlfishtailing side to side. Proper weight distribution already helps with trailer hop, which can lead to sway. The arms of a weight distributing hitch resist side to side motions. A recent Cal State study showed they are very effective at controlling sway in extremely unsteady loads.

yobarr · Guru

Gundog wrote:
This comes from an American motor site that listed the top 10 weight distribution hitches, Anderson came out as number 1, there was a few other models that are available in Australia on the list, but Haymen Reese was not there, in the first paragraph seems to contradicts yobarr and monties assumptions of where the weight is distributed to.

How Does a Weight Distributing Hitch Work?
A weight distributing hitch uses leverage to spread the weight of the trailer from just the hitch to the whole tow vehicle. A trailer without a weight distributing hitch will focus all of its weight onto the small surface area of the hitch ball and shank. This can cause the rear end of your truck or SUV to sag, which may make it susceptible to trailer sway and bounce, and reduces your ability to remain in control of the vehicle when traveling.
A weight distributing hitch is specially designed to spread the weight of your trailer to a larger surface area, reducing rear end sag and helping to keep the trailer even and in line with your vehicle. They can also help with cornering stability when towing, when directing the weight of the trailer to one side of the vehicle.
Think of it this way: Take a frying pan with a handle on it and press down a half inch out on the handle. If the pan is your vehicle, where youre pressing down is like the weight of a trailer on the hitch, which sticks out a little bit from the end of your vehicle. Adding the arms of a weight distributing hitch is like keeping one finger pressing down where it was but lifting up on the end of the handle with your other hand. Now, youre pressing the front of the pan (your car) down, too.
The other thing a weight distributing hitch can help with is sway controlfishtailing side to side. Proper weight distribution already helps with trailer hop, which can lead to sway. The arms of a weight distributing hitch resist side to side motions. A recent Cal State study showed they are very effective at controlling sway in extremely unsteady loads.

Graham, this is a very similar situation to the HR chart that has been displayed, and it is made easy to "understand" in an effort to assist newbies and others with absolutely no understanding of the physics involved, and who may have little reasoning ability. This article is utter rot. A WDH cannot "direct the weight to one side of the vehicle" nor can it "control fishtailing". There is no mention of the increased chances of oversteer that a WDH is likely to introduce. The second and third lines are absolute rubbish as the weight is APPLIED to the tow vehicle via the "hitch ball and shank" regardless of whether or not there is a WDH fitted. PERHAPS .. this is only a suggestion .. the author doesn't actually know what a WDH is, and has inadvertently written about a sway control device? This misunderstanding and confusion is sometimes evident with posts on our forum. There may be other types of WDH systems available in America, but introducing this article is no more than a Red Herring which does nothing to help fellow members. We're in Australia and HR is the most commonly used system, so it surely is sensible to base our discussion around that product? Pretty pointless researching the price of bananas when you're buying pears. Well,it's getting late and I am again comfortable that I have done my very best to assist those who want to, and are willing to learn, but as always there will be those who cannot, will not or simply do not want to learn. All the facts and figures I give are simple physics, and indesputable, and all I ask is that if you dislike or can't understand the message please don't shoot the messenger. Cheers

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Still waffle. Address the issue of weights I have shown with a rational explanation. If you can't, just say so and and we can all move on.

Alan

Gundog · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
This comes from an American motor site that listed the top 10 weight distribution hitches, Anderson came out as number 1, there was a few other models that are available in Australia on the list, but Haymen Reese was not there, in the first paragraph seems to contradicts yobarr and monties assumptions of where the weight is distributed to.

Graham, this is a very similar situation to the HR chart that has been displayed, and it is made easy to "understand" in an effort to assist newbies and others with absolutely no understanding of the physics involved, and who may have little reasoning ability.This article is utter rot.
A WDH cannot "direct the weight to one side of the vehicle" nor can it "control fishtailing". There is no mention of the increased chances of oversteer that a WDH is likely to introduce.
The second and third lines are absolute rubbish as the weight is APPLIED to the tow vehicle via the "hitch ball and shank" regardless of whether or not there is a WDH fitted. PERHAPS .. this is only a suggestion .. the author doesn't actually know what a WDH is, and has inadvertently written about a sway control device?
This misunderstanding and confusion is sometimes evident with posts on our forum.
There may be other types of WDH systems available in America, but introducing this article is no more than a Red Herring which does nothing to help fellow members.
We're in Australia and HR is the most commonly used system, so it surely is sensible to base our discussion around that product?
Pretty pointless researching the price of bananas when you're buying pears.
Well,it's getting late and I am again comfortable that I have done my very best to assist those who want to, and are willing to learn, but as always there will be those who cannot, will not or simply do not want to learn.
All the facts and figures I give are simple physics, and indesputable, and all I ask is that if you dislike or can't understand the message please don't shoot the messenger. Cheers

I'm happy for you to bury your head in negativity, believing in gospel according to Cadogen and Collyn Rivers, so dont the engineers that design and manufacture weight distribution hitches, who go to great lengths to provide a manual outling the correct proceedures for installing and using their products. Because in the land of litigation if they were not fit for purpose they wouldnt be any.

A little snippet information all the manufacturers of WDH's go to great pains to stress that the correct ball height in relation to the coupling height, even one sold here in Australia advises that for every 100lbs of ball weight the height of the ball be increased by 1/8th of an inch. The same company has instruction for the installation and setup of their WDH when using overiders and air bag.

Oh by the way the owner of Reese USA (which own HR Aust) are now having their hitches made in Mexico and are branding them DRAW-TITE.

-- Edited by Gundog on Thursday 21st of July 2022 09:52:04 AM

BarneyBDB · Senior Member

Attached this to the WDH, any effect on towball weight???

Are We Lost · Guru

Oh, look what I found .... a video from Cruisemaster that proves what I have been saying all along. This image extracted from the video ... see link below.

WDH load.jpg

Measuring device proves towball load increases with WDH

You can see that as the bars are tensioned, the rear of the vehicle rises, but the scale shows weight from the coupling increases dramatically. Exactly what I have been saying, but rubbished on here by some. The same who could offer no explanation of how a WDH worked. Only what effect it had.

This additional load onto the towball is more than compensated for by the uplift to the back of the car from these same bars. So despite this increased weight on the towball, the rear end sag is reduced. What seems to confuse some is that these up and down loads are not measured (very difficult to measure without equpment like in the video), and the net weight change due to the WDH is distributed to all the wheels. So the total weight on the wheels never changes, never will.

So a WDH does change the weight on the towball. Always has, always will.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 21st of July 2022 06:34:56 PM

KJB · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Oh, look what I found .... a video from Cruisemaster that proves what I have been saying all along. This image extracted from the video ... see link below.

Measuring device proves towball load increases with WDH
You can see that as the bars are tensioned, the rear of the vehicle rises, but the scale shows weight from the coupling increases dramatically. Exactly what I have been saying, but rubbished on here by some. The same who could offer no explanation of how a WDH worked. Only what effect it had.
This additional load onto the towball is more than compensated for by the uplift to the back of the car from these same bars. So despite this increased weight on the towball, the rear end sag is reduced. What seems to confuse some is that these up and down loads are not measured (very difficult to measure without equpment like in the video), and the net weight change due to the WDH is distributed to all the wheels. So the total weight on the wheels never changes, never will.
So a WDH does change the weight on the towball. Always has, always will.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 21st of July 2022 06:34:56 PM

Tension ....not weight.

yobarr · Guru

KJB wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
Oh, look what I found .... a video from Cruisemaster that proves what I have been saying all along. This image extracted from the video ... see link below.

Measuring device proves towball load increases with WDH
You can see that as the bars are tensioned, the rear of the vehicle rises, but the scale shows weight from the coupling increases dramatically. Exactly what I have been saying, but rubbished on here by some. The same who could offer no explanation of how a WDH worked. Only what effect it had.
This additional load onto the towball is more than compensated for by the uplift to the back of the car from these same bars. So despite this increased weight on the towball, the rear end sag is reduced. What seems to confuse some is that these up and down loads are not measured (very difficult to measure without equpment like in the video), and the net weight change due to the WDH is distributed to all the wheels. So the total weight on the wheels never changes, never will.
So a WDH does change the weight on the towball. Always has, always will.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 21st of July 2022 06:34:56 PM
Tension ....not weight.

You've got it Kerry. This video has been around for some time and is no more than an advertising tool designed to sell a DO35, which coincidentally is the best hitch available. What the video conveniently does not show is the transfer of weight from the rear axle (wheels) of the car to the front axle, and the van's axle group. With many members unable to understand even the basics of a WDH I was loath to introduce further complications, and I quickly recognised that Stephen's was attempting to "set me up" so I deliberately offered no "explanation" for him. My own experiments with a WDH on my car showed that, in my case, 34% of weight removed from the car's rear axle went to the van's axles while 66% went to the car's front axle. These percentages will vary dependent mainly on TBO and wheelbase. Cheers

Are We Lost · Guru

KJB wrote:

Tension ....not weight.

We typically refer to the load on the towball as weight. I appreciate that in this video it is not the typical towball we think of but it makes no difference. It works exactly the same way.

The scale measures weight not tension. In the video, when the first reading of 185kg is shown, there is no tension. So it can't be reading tension. It is simply reading the weight of the coupling on the ball. After the bars are tensioned the scales read 510kg, an increase of 325kg. So, just an increase in the previous weight reading.

We don't know the tension on the bars, but we do know that an additional (smaller) weight has also been added to the van wheels because of those tensioned bars. It doesn't add tension to the van wheels. It adds weight. The weight from the tension on the bars is distributed to the only support points on the van. Part goes as additional weight on the van wheels, and a larger proportion goes as additional weight onto the towball. An identical funtion. Just two points on the van chassis.

Anyway. Enough. Readers can make of this saga as they wish. At least we agree on what the WDH does and achieves.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 22nd of July 2022 01:27:13 AM

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
KJB wrote:

Tension ....not weight.
We typically refer to the load on the towball as weight. I appreciate that in this video it is not the typical towball we think of but it makes no difference. It works exactly the same way.
The scale measures weight not tension. In the video, when the first reading of 185kg is shown, there is no tension. So it can't be reading tension. It is simply reading the weight of the coupling on the ball. After the bars are tensioned the scales read 510kg, an increase of 325kg. So, just an increase in the previous weight reading.
We don't know the tension on the bars, but we do know that an additional (smaller) weight has also been added to the van wheels because of those tensioned bars. It doesn't add tension to the van wheels. It adds weight. The weight from the tension on the bars is distributed to the only support points on the van. Part goes as additional weight on the van wheels, and a larger proportion goes as additional weight onto the towball. An identical funtion. Just two points on the van chassis.
Anyway. Enough. Readers can make of this saga as they wish. At least we agree on what the WDH does and achieves.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 22nd of July 2022 01:27:13 AM

Tension and weight are the same thing (force). Weight is a force created by gravity acting vertically on a mass and is expressed in Newtons but by convention can also be expressed in Kg Wt. Tension in the above case is created by deforming the WDH bars, but is still a force and is expressed as Newtons not as Kg Wt. It is wrong to express weight as Kg, this indicates mass not weight.

Alan

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr I am still waiting for you to address the reduction in weight on the cars wheels when the WDH is tensioned. All responses so far are selected articles that support your view but all fail to tackle the issue.

Alan

KJB · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
KJB wrote:

Tension ....not weight.
We typically refer to the load on the towball as weight. I appreciate that in this video it is not the typical towball we think of but it makes no difference. It works exactly the same way.
The scale measures weight not tension. In the video, when the first reading of 185kg is shown, there is no tension. So it can't be reading tension. It is simply reading the weight of the coupling on the ball. After the bars are tensioned the scales read 510kg, an increase of 325kg. So, just an increase in the previous weight reading.
We don't know the tension on the bars, but we do know that an additional (smaller) weight has also been added to the van wheels because of those tensioned bars. It doesn't add tension to the van wheels. It adds weight. The weight from the tension on the bars is distributed to the only support points on the van. Part goes as additional weight on the van wheels, and a larger proportion goes as additional weight onto the towball. An identical funtion. Just two points on the van chassis.
Anyway. Enough. Readers can make of this saga as they wish. At least we agree on what the WDH does and achieves.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 22nd of July 2022 01:27:13 AM
Tension and weight are the same thing (force). Weight is a force created by gravity acting vertically on a mass and is expressed in Newtons but by convention can also be expressed in Kg Wt. Tension in the above case is created by deforming the WDH bars, but is still a force and is expressed as Newtons not as Kg Wt. It is wrong to express weight as Kg, this indicates mass not weight.
Alan

It is still only measuring the increase of the "clamping pressure" between the ball and the hood due to the tensioning of the bars........,

Put a "G Clamp" around a set of Bathroom Scales and tighten it up - the Scales will still read in Kilograms.

Looks like they are using an "incorrect" measuring device in the Video. KB

-- Edited by KJB on Friday 22nd of July 2022 09:32:14 AM

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr I am still waiting for you to address the reduction in weight on the cars wheels when the WDH is tensioned. All responses so far are selected articles that support your view but all fail to tackle the issue.
Alan

Bit busy for couple of hours Alan, but later today I will try to devote enough time to explaining, in words of one syllable for you, why the video is a nonsense and is no more than an advertising tool aimed at gullible people. Cheers

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr my interest is not in the video but on the fact that the figures show a reduction in towball download when a WDH is tensioned. This is what you need to address, not some side issue of a video.
Alan

Brenda and Alan · Guru

KJB

I will say again scales measure force which is not expressed in Kg, but in Kg Wt. If various videos use the term Kg for weight they are wrong.

Alan

montie · Guru

know? Towing without a Hayman Reese Weight Distribution System can cause unnerving trailer sway, reduced steering and braking responsiveness, less traction and misaligned headlamps. Over time you may also notice a reduction in fuel economy and increased tyre wear. Hayman Reese Weight Distribution Systems improve safety, handling, control and comfort when towing. When using a Weight Distribution System, the ball weight remains the same, however, the load is evenly distributed across all of the axles. This restores the tow vehicle to its correct operating balance, carrying the caravan rather than dragging the load.

Copied directly from the HR website who, for many years have been manufacturing WDH's.

But what would they know amongst the experts on here!.

Time to move on guys....