I read a topic which yet again was closed because of the usual pissing contest.
The argument appeared to be a discrepancy in terminology.
My suggestion is.
The term GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the heading on the compliance plate which informs everyone what the maximum weight that the vehicle may operate before being illegal.
The term that should be and is used by some law enforcement bodies when it comes to the weight of the vehicle, be it one unit or a combination of units connected together is,
Gross Mass.
If you exceed the Gross Combination Mass as is stated on the plate with a Gross Mass which is In excess of the plated figure then you are operating illegally.
If your Gross Mass is under the Gross Combination Mass then technically you are operating legally unless you exceed the Mass permitted on any axle group.
This cannot be that difficult to comprehend but it is made difficult by each jurisdiction having and using different terminologies and by the public having a poor understanding of these terminologies.
__________________
Welcome to Biggs Country many may know it as Australia
I read a topic which yet again was closed because of the usual pissing contest.
The argument appeared to be a discrepancy in terminology.
My suggestion is.
The term GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the heading on the compliance plate which informs everyone what the maximum weight that the vehicle may operate before being illegal.
The term that should be and is used by some law enforcement bodies when it comes to the weight of the vehicle, be it one unit or a combination of units connected together is,
Gross Mass.
If you exceed the Gross Combination Mass as is stated on the plate with a Gross Mass which is In excess of the plated figure then you are operating illegally.
If your Gross Mass is under the Gross Combination Mass then technically you are operating legally unless you exceed the Mass permitted on any axle group.
This cannot be that difficult to comprehend but it is made difficult by each jurisdiction having and using different terminologies and by the public having a poor understanding of these terminologies.
Ivan,
It really isn't at all confusing it is just that some people make it so.
GCM is a rating set by the tug manufacturer.
Measured weight is the actual weight at a given point in time.
You could call it Gross Weight or any number of other alternatives.
Mass is a term used in ratings and weight when it is weighed.
It really isn't at all confusing it is just that some people make it so.
GCM is a rating set by the tug manufacturer.
Measured weight is the actual weight at a given point in time.
You could call it Gross Weight or any number of other alternatives.
Mass is a term used in ratings and weight when it is weighed.
Montie wrote "GCM is a rating set by the tug manufacturer" So simple. End of story. Cheers
Not end of story.
And here lies the problem. Some think that because the wording "gross combined mass" (GCM) is used by manufacturers and also in legal terms, even regulations that it can't be used in another context. On a locked thread is was even stated
"You can't just change the rules to suit yourself by penning garbage such as " It may not be a legal term,but it works for me". Can you even begin to imagine the mayhem and turmoil in society if every person decided to interpret laws and regulations in the way that suited them best? Spare me. Laws and regulations are made for a reason, and for everybody. No exceptions"
The above is, to be blunt utter bull sh1t. Nobody was trying to change any rules. And to suggest, let alone state it is simply a lie.
That person is saying a word or term used in law can only ever be used in a legal context.
Utter bull sh1t.
Many, many words are used in regulations, the whole dictionary, we use in them every day. And usually without any legal meaning or context.
"Hazard" for example has special meaning in OHS law. Does that mean if I use it daily I'm changing law and causing mayhem or turmoil, NO.
Some are just very, very narrow minded or simply intent on starting arguments. And they love it.
Terminology like GCM, GVM, GTM and ATM, have been accepted what can't you understand.
First off you should equate yourself with the owners manual for you chosen tow vehicle that should outline all you need to know about towing weights including the axle weights etc etc, oh bugger it don't read it make up you own detirmations another argue it on caravan forum.
Every 2nd week we have a topic on weights and their meanings. And the usual respondents commence to back and forth argue. Whilst yes I could just ignore it and not read, I thought the Mods put up a separate forum for this type of topic. Then it does not clog up the general forum. My thoughts are if you think your tug can tow 3.5t and you need to tow that amount, then get the dealer you buy your car from to give you a guarantee that it can and with the configuration of your passengers and other stuff you want to carry. If they will not give you that then just walk away. Then you might... just might find they will start to say that no mainstream car can tow that amount safely and legally.
As an aside. I note the new Jeep Cherokee has a tow capacity well below 3.5T. Perhaps other may well follow their lead.
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16.5 Discovery 4 with a few mods and New Age MR 16' Deluxe
I read a topic which yet again was closed because of the usual pissing contest.
The argument appeared to be a discrepancy in terminology.
My suggestion is.
The term GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the heading on the compliance plate which informs everyone what the maximum weight that the vehicle may operate before being illegal.
The term that should be and is used by some law enforcement bodies when it comes to the weight of the vehicle, be it one unit or a combination of units connected together is,
Gross Mass.
If you exceed the Gross Combination Mass as is stated on the plate with a Gross Mass which is In excess of the plated figure then you are operating illegally.
If your Gross Mass is under the Gross Combination Mass then technically you are operating legally unless you exceed the Mass permitted on any axle group.
This cannot be that difficult to comprehend but it is made difficult by each jurisdiction having and using different terminologies and by the public having a poor understanding of these terminologies.
Ivan,
It really isn't at all confusing it is just that some people make it so.
GCM is a rating set by the tug manufacturer.
Measured weight is the actual weight at a given point in time.
You could call it Gross Weight or any number of other alternatives.
Mass is a term used in ratings and weight when it is weighed.
Hi Montie,
Yes it is so simple.
As with weights some just dont want to comply.
The way this topic has gone already is a fair indication of how some people just dont comprehend.
It is unfortunate that these topics can not be discussed sensibly on here.
__________________
Welcome to Biggs Country many may know it as Australia
Every 2nd week we have a topic on weights and their meanings. And the usual respondents commence to back and forth argue. Whilst yes I could just ignore it and not read, I thought the Mods put up a separate forum for this type of topic. Then it does not clog up the general forum. My thoughts are if you think your tug can tow 3.5t and you need to tow that amount, then get the dealer you buy your car from to give you a guarantee that it can and with the configuration of your passengers and other stuff you want to carry. If they will not give you that then just walk away. Then you might... just might find they will start to say that no mainstream car can tow that amount safely and legally.
As an aside. I note the new Jeep Cherokee has a tow capacity well below 3.5T. Perhaps other may well follow their lead.
Yes Walter, last week I was doing a bit of research and stumbled across that fact. The 'great awakening' perhaps, and lets hope that more manufacturers follow suit. We all would be a lot safer, particularly the many amongst us who don't understand weights. Cheers
The main problem as I see it is that the terms ATM, GTM,GVM and TBM are very poorly defined. All use the term Mass which is the amount of substance making up the object, but the ADRs then express these masses as the down force they cause under the effects of gravity, that is their weight as measured by scales.
It would be much better if they were expressed in terms of weight only, ie ATW, GTW. GVW. AND TBW.
The second problem is the term Gross. In GVM it is the total mass of the tow vehicle, but in GTM it is not the total mass of the towed trailer but the net mass bearing on the road, so the term NTW would be more applicable.
Lastly the term TBM. The tow ball down load is not a mass and never has been. It is a down force caused the forward weight balance of the trailer. This is where people get it wrong in discussing weight distribution accessories as they think is a fixed mass and cant be altered.
I read a topic which yet again was closed because of the usual pissing contest.
The argument appeared to be a discrepancy in terminology.
This cannot be that difficult to comprehend but it is made difficult by each jurisdiction having and using different terminologies and by the public having a poor understanding of these terminologies.
Problem is caused because too many people, who don't believe that the law applies to them, go out of their way to find a loophole.
So the powers that be have to define everything down to the nth degree which is where the complexity comes from.
Hope you have recovered from your injury yobarr...
It is quite humerus reading this thread...as you and montie quite rightly noted; "GCM is a rating set by the tug manufacturer" So simple. End of story."
When mucking around with trucks, big trucks, towing B Doubles, or 1,2 or 3 trailers, you HAVE to know what your truck's GCM is...no value when pulled up to be weighed trying to tell the scaly that your interpretation of the vehicle's capacity is different to that of the manufacturer!
You'll be unloading by the side of the road, or dropping that 3rd trailer what ever is causing the issue before you go anywhere... and copping a big fine for good measure.
No different when adding the total combined weight of a car and caravan together...the manufacturer determined that their vehicle could safely steer and brake up to a certain combined weight.
Hope you have recovered from your injury yobarr...
It is quite humerus reading this thread...as you and montie quite rightly noted; "GCM is a rating set by the tug manufacturer" So simple. End of story."
When mucking around with trucks, big trucks, towing B Doubles, or 1,2 or 3 trailers, you HAVE to know what your truck's GCM is...no value when pulled up to be weighed trying to tell the scaly that your interpretation of the vehicle's capacity is different to that of the manufacturer!
You'll be unloading by the side of the road, or dropping that 3rd trailer what ever is causing the issue before you go anywhere... and copping a big fine for good measure.
No different when adding the total combined weight of a car and caravan together...the manufacturer determined that their vehicle could safely steer and brake up to a certain combined weight.
Why all the fuss?
The legal capacities of the Prime mover MUST be matched to the Legal capacities of the Trailer/s no matter how large or small the Combination is.
As you say "Why all the fuss?"
You may or may not be legal to "hookup" your current or desired Tow vehicle to whatever your "dream " Caravan is. Get expert advice and "do the sums" first - it can/will save you a lot of money and heartache.
"Shifty" advertising has created a mismatched situation where "all is not what it seems"........... KB
The main problem as I see it is that the terms ATM, GTM,GVM and TBM are very poorly defined. All use the term Mass which is the amount of substance making up the object, but the ADRs then express these masses as the down force they cause under the effects of gravity, that is their weight as measured by scales.
It would be much better if they were expressed in terms of weight only, ie ATW, GTW. GVW. AND TBW.
The second problem is the term Gross. In GVM it is the total mass of the tow vehicle, but in GTM it is not the total mass of the towed trailer but the net mass bearing on the road, so the term NTW would be more applicable.
Lastly the term TBM. The tow ball down load is not a mass and never has been. It is a down force caused the forward weight balance of the trailer. This is where people get it wrong in discussing weight distribution accessories as they think is a fixed mass and cant be altered.
Alan
Alan, probably not many would have noticed your reference to WDH and towball weight. However, I did and I must say that I am surprised that after pages of detailed explanation and evidence from Hayman Reece you still appear to not understand that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. Never has, never will. It would be helpful if you did not try to confuse those who simply are trying to learn weights. Cheers
Hope you have recovered from your injury yobarr...
It is quite humerus reading this thread...as you and montie quite rightly noted; "GCM is a rating set by the tug manufacturer" So simple. End of story."
When mucking around with trucks, big trucks, towing B Doubles, or 1,2 or 3 trailers, you HAVE to know what your truck's GCM is...no value when pulled up to be weighed trying to tell the scaly that your interpretation of the vehicle's capacity is different to that of the manufacturer!
You'll be unloading by the side of the road, or dropping that 3rd trailer what ever is causing the issue before you go anywhere... and copping a big fine for good measure.
No different when adding the total combined weight of a car and caravan together...the manufacturer determined that their vehicle could safely steer and brake up to a certain combined weight.
Why all the fuss?
Thanks Dean, for your kind wishes regarding my injury. Getting there slowly but about another month. "Why all the fuss"? you ask. Unfortunately there are always those who want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, and no amount of reasoning or logic will help them. C'est la vie. Next week they may tell us that planet Earth is flat. Who knows.Cheers
I think this is a real mines bigger than your contest.
I know there are terms, but isnt it as simple as;
Weights/rating whatever you like to call them are set by manufacturers and should not exceeded
Example:
1. Vehicle weighs 2000 kgs bare no passengers, no fuel etc
2. Vehicle can weigh no more that 2750 kgs with passengers, fuel and extras loaded
3. Caravan weighs 2000 kgs bare, straight from factory
4. Caravan can weigh no more than 2500 kgs fully loaded with gas, water, food, clothing, extras, etc, etc
5. Vehicle manufacturer sets a maximum figure that the loaded vehicle and an attached loaded trailer can not exceed
I think this is a real mines bigger than your contest.
I know there are terms, but isnt it as simple as;
Weights/rating whatever you like to call them are set by manufacturers and should not exceeded
Example:
1. Vehicle weighs 2000 kgs bare no passengers, no fuel etc 2. Vehicle can weigh no more that 2750 kgs with passengers, fuel and extras loaded 3. Caravan weighs 2000 kgs bare, straight from factory 4. Caravan can weigh no more than 2500 kgs fully loaded with gas, water, food, clothing, extras, etc, etc 5. Vehicle manufacturer sets a maximum figure that the loaded vehicle and an attached loaded trailer can not exceed
All over red rover.
Hang on Im about to get screamed at
You are not considering the weight on individual axles ......or the "type" of trailer (it is basically impossible to buy a "dog" type caravan in Australia) KB
Sample of "Dog" style caravan (NMP) "Relatively no or very little "Tow ball Weight" . Many Vehicle Manufacturers quote '"Towing Capacity" figures that suit this style of caravan not necessarily the "Pig" or common style of caravan.
-- Edited by KJB on Monday 30th of May 2022 09:24:00 AM
"...Unfortunately there are always those who want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, and no amount of reasoning or logic will help them. C'est la vie. Next week they may tell us that planet Earth is flat. Who knows."
Yeah Chris, I had my say...there is one thing about fooling with big trucks as you and I well know, weights and measures are critical to know and understand, regardless of the "terminology"...
