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    Interesting statistic from elsewhere on the forum, so possibly missed by many? Would those caravanners who are ignorant of their weights be more likely to simply not know because they've never bothered to check their weights, or are they more likely to simply not  care?  Cheers

26A1C1AF-5CFE-446D-961C-6526BF0481F0.jpeg



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I would suggest a bit of both, sadly.
And I have met "both"
Ian

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I've met quite a few guys that know their caravan is overweight but "the little lady" insists that she must bring everything but the kitchen sink.
They want to keep the peace so they ignore the fact.

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Sorry but i disagree , if the issue was really as bad as some would have us believe i think there would be far more compliance inspections out on the roads .

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bratboy wrote:

Sorry but i disagree , if the issue was really as bad as some would have us believe i think there would be far more compliance inspections out on the roads .


What, you don't think weights are an issue in the RV industry, out on the road that is??

Seriously!!

Ian



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yes seriously . if you read my post i said i didn't think it was as bad as some would have us believe not that i didn't think it was an issue .

no overloaded vehicle should be on the road , just like nobody should be speeding but it still happens .



-- Edited by bratboy on Thursday 12th of May 2022 05:43:04 PM

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86GTS wrote:

I've met quite a few guys that know their caravan is overweight but "the little lady" insists that she must bring everything but the kitchen sink.
They want to keep the peace so they ignore the fact.


SO .  "They want to keep the peace .." do they?  WTF. Don't these clowns have any idea? Do they have no interest in the safety of others and, in particular, the safety of "the lttle lady"?  Do they have no idea of the legal situation if they are involved in an accident and found to be overloaded, even if they were not at fault? As well as having all insurance claims denied they could end up in jail, and " the lttle lady" could be injured,or worse. Many of these clowns might do well to research the recent case in NSW where Stephen George Russell was jailed for over 2 years for losing control of his overloaded Prado and van which then hit a tree (?), killing his wife and her son. He was a highly experienced interstate truckie but still was involved in a fatal accident caused by overloading. Would these clowns who don't seem to know what their vehicles weigh prefer to see their "little lady" angry, injured or worse. These days I spend my days driving a Roadtrain that is legal at waaaay over 130 ton, but I always ensure all my axle weights and GCM are not exceeded. Cheers

 

AFC6C9F6-9C07-49FB-9EC5-EE192BD4E210.png



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Time for this thread to be moved to the weights section after all that's what it was created for .

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bratboy wrote:

Sorry but i disagree , if the issue was really as bad as some would have us believe i think there would be far more compliance inspections out on the roads .


 You seem not to have a name, so I cannot address you personally, but I will say that surely you jest?  Some time ago free caravan "weigh ins" were conducted in Queensland, with no penalties involved for transgressors. More than 70% of caravans presented for test weighs were found to be overloaded in some way. As for your comment about "more compliance inspectors out on the roads", again, surely you jest? Can you imagine the uproar if up to 70% of caravans were told to park-up alongside the road and shed a few hundred KGs of weight before being allowed to proceed? Political suicide. AND can you imagine the uproar if ALL towing vehicles had to comply with the SENSIBLE law that says that if a vehicle with a GVM of over 4500kg is towing a PIG trailer ALWAYS the weight on the wheels of the towing vehicle must be greater than the weight on the wheels of the towed vehicle. This common sense practice minimises the all too familiar cause of caravan accidents, where the "tail wags the Dog" and it all goes.  R-Sup. During my travels I have often spoken to people whose vehicles were obviously overloaded, some to the point of stupidity, but they either get very defensive or just don't care. Fools. Cheers

 

1F032FCF-C9BF-4E29-AEA2-28798E2F9425.png



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of May 2022 06:23:06 PM



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of May 2022 06:48:19 PM

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yobarr wrote:
86GTS wrote:

I've met quite a few guys that know their caravan is overweight but "the little lady" insists that she must bring everything but the kitchen sink.
They want to keep the peace so they ignore the fact.


SO .  "They want to keep the peace .." do they?  WTF. Don't these clowns have any idea? Do they have no interest in the safety of others and, in particular, the safety of "the lttle lady"?  Do they have no idea of the legal situation if they are involved in an accident and found to be overloaded, even if they were not at fault? As well as having all insurance claims denied they could end up in jail, and " the lttle lady" could be injured,or worse. Many of these clowns might do well to research the recent case in NSW where Stephen George Russell was jailed for over 2 years for losing control of his overloaded Prado and van which then hit a tree (?), killing his wife and her son. He was a highly experienced interstate truckie but still was involved in a fatal accident caused by overloading. Would these clowns who don't seem to know what their vehicles weigh prefer to see their "little lady" angry, injured or worse. These days I spend my days driving a Roadtrain that is legal at waaaay over 130 ton, but I always ensure all my axle weights and GCM are not exceeded. Cheers

 

AFC6C9F6-9C07-49FB-9EC5-EE192BD4E210.png


 Just a few points, and I'm not saying it's OK to be non- compliant.

 

1. I think its mainly lack of understanding/knowledge and complacency. 

2. Most of the lack of knowledge would be fixed if training, and/ or a license was required to tow.

3. When you first buy a van most find understanding weights far from simple.

4. Yobarr, your statement  "They want to keep the peace .." do they?  WTF. Don't these clowns have any idea? Do they have no interest in the safety of others and, in particular, the safety of "the lttle lady"?  Do they have no idea of the legal situation if they are involved in an accident and found to be overloaded"

This clearly indicates your lack of underdtanding regarding marital relationships and how many women tick.

5. Towing weights is no different to any other niche subject, not everyone is an expert. Bet you know buggerall about atmospheric monitoring, or explosives  but it doesn't automatically make you an idiot.

6. Basically it isn't easy to comply.

7. Just because your overweight by a few kg does not mean death is imminent, (as you seem to often imply)  just that the risk has increased.

8. I expect this thread to be locked fairly quickly. :)

 

Cheers OB  :)

 

Edit: repeatedly posting g images of accidents or critical parts that have failed without all of the relevant information is simply scare mongering and designed to bait.

 



-- Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 12th of May 2022 07:24:31 PM

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You don't need to address me by name this is a forum not a courthouse . No I am not jesting my statement is my opinion just as your statements are your opinion nothing more , unless you have some qualifications they you haven't disclosed .

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bratboy wrote:

Sorry but i disagree , if the issue was really as bad as some would have us believe i think there would be far more compliance inspections out on the roads .


 Tend to agree, though politics could play a part.

 

Spotted a padlock used to connect a safety chain yesterday. Lol.

Also spotted a Ute towing what looked like a 25' van tinny on roof, 10hp outboard on van bumper. Lol. Not the first will not be the last. They are among us. Lol



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bratboy wrote:

You don't need to address me by name this is a forum not a courthouse . No I am not jesting my statement is my opinion just as your statements are your opinion nothing more , unless you have some qualifications they you haven't disclosed .


Totally agree. Forums are non personal contact arenas, knowing someone's name is not necessary. If you can't cope with not knowing peoples names don't participate in forums.

Or is it a case of knowing someone's name helps hurt a little more in a situation where you disagree & things get nasty?



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Oldbloke I'm not suggesting that there aren't overloaded vans out there , Just that the whole issue isn't the end of civilisation and humanity as we know it as some would suggest .

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bratboy wrote:

Oldbloke I'm not suggesting that there aren't overloaded vans out there , Just that the whole issue isn't the end of civilisation and humanity as we know it as some would suggest .


 Um, I think we agree.



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oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
86GTS wrote:

I've met quite a few guys that know their caravan is overweight but "the little lady" insists that she must bring everything but the kitchen sink.
They want to keep the peace so they ignore the fact.


SO .  "They want to keep the peace .." do they?  WTF. Don't these clowns have any idea? Do they have no interest in the safety of others and, in particular, the safety of "the lttle lady"?  Do they have no idea of the legal situation if they are involved in an accident and found to be overloaded, even if they were not at fault? As well as having all insurance claims denied they could end up in jail, and " the lttle lady" could be injured,or worse. Many of these clowns might do well to research the recent case in NSW where Stephen George Russell was jailed for over 2 years for losing control of his overloaded Prado and van which then hit a tree (?), killing his wife and her son. He was a highly experienced interstate truckie but still was involved in a fatal accident caused by overloading. Would these clowns who don't seem to know what their vehicles weigh prefer to see their "little lady" angry, injured or worse. These days I spend my days driving a Roadtrain that is legal at waaaay over 130 ton, but I always ensure all my axle weights and GCM are not exceeded. Cheers

 

AFC6C9F6-9C07-49FB-9EC5-EE192BD4E210.png


 Just a few points, and I'm not saying it's OK to be non- compliant.

Strangely, we seem to agree on some points, which I will address below. 

1. I think its mainly lack of understanding/knowledge and complacency. 

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse.                                                                                                                               "Honestly Officer, I didn't know I couldn't tow 3500kg with my Triton".    

2. Most of the lack of knowledge would be fixed if training, and/ or a license was required to tow.

   NOW we agree. The sooner a law is enacted requiring such a licence for towing, the better. And NO multiple choice questions either. The problem we have is that many in "authority" have little idea about weights and physics.

3. When you first buy a van most find understanding weights far from simple.

Agreed, but it is easy to learn, providing the person trying to educate these people is not contradicted by those who know little, understand less and have no real interest in learning. 

4. Yobarr, your statement  "They want to keep the peace .." do they?  WTF. Don't these clowns have any idea? Do they have no interest in the safety of others and, in particular, the safety of "the lttle lady"?  Do they have no idea of the legal situation if they are involved in an accident and found to be overloaded"

This clearly indicates your lack of underdtanding regarding marital relationships and how many women tick.

Would you prefer that your wife have you understand how she "ticks", or would you prefer to have her know that you love her and would rather see her angry than dead?

5. Towing weights is no different to any other niche subject, not everyone is an expert. Bet you know buggerall about atmospheric monitoring, or explosives  but it doesn't automatically make you an idiot.

On the contrary, I easily recognise hot air when I see it.

6. Basically it isn't easy to comply.

Do you believe that, since you believe that  it "isn't easy to comply", people should simply ignore the law?

  

7. Just because your overweight by a few kg does not mean death is imminent, (as you seem to often imply)  just that the risk has increased.

A few kg is neither here nor there, and a tolerance with weights generally is allowed by compliance officers if a plausible excuse is given, but when you see Tritons and similar towing HUGE vans, to ensure safety of ALL road users, something must be done. When I get time I will fully relate the story of an MUX I saw yesterday from my Roadtrain. ALL over road because the van (Tail) was wagging the Dog (Car), with white knuckles, and yaw of over 2 metres.

8. I expect this thread to be locked fairly quickly. :)

 

 

Cheers OB  :)

 

Edit: repeatedly posting g images of accidents or critical parts that have failed without all of the relevant information is simply scare mongering and designed to bait.

All of the photos that I post without claiming them as my own have been taken from the internet, so I fail to see how using them should be classed, by you, as "scare mongering".


 



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of May 2022 08:21:50 PM

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i realise that towing an overweight caravan is not something that anyone should be doing Yobarr but I think you have got a little bit hysterical about the example you have given,

The person who was gaoled was doing much more than towing an overweight caravan, it was his manner of driving. He had several counts on his indictment and part of the Crown case was that he was overloaded.  In fact, it was alleged that he was more than 800kg overloaded when he crashed.

I don't think anyone on this forum is suggesting that they are blatantly disregarding their weights by this margin. I know from my legal experience, especially in remote areas like the Northern Territory, owners and drivers of trucks, especially road trains, are regularly in court for exceeding axle weights and I am yet to see anyone gaoled. If they were to have an accident it is then necessary to prove that the overweight axle caused the accident, not just be an additional factor.

 



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The root of the problem is somewhere else I believe.

The industry practise and some regulations let to the situation that the payload of caravans is typically 300kg for a single-axle van and 400kg for a twin axle van. People have asked for more and more luxury and space and the vans get closer and closer to the typical towing limits of mid size cars and suv's not even allowing the full payload before being beyond the towing capacity. On top of that the tare weight is taken with very little in it, no additional battery, solar panel, tv, greywater tanks etc. This reduces the payload further. No wonder that so many are over the payload limits (ATM) and especially over the towing weight limit. You get forced into this situation by the industry, marketing, peer pressure and whatever else. Hard to get away from that circle.

I originally wanted to keep my gooseneck under 4.5t but got closer and closer to the 400kg payload limit and decided to put an end to this issue. I put air brakes under it with a steel subframe and now have 1.6t "real" payload. Caravans are inherently dangerous, whether overloaded or not, especially the big long ones with large overhang.

Semitrailers (gooseneck or fifth wheel) are much safer and an Iveco or such is half the price of a Landcruiser and can tow it safely. I guess most don't want or can't afford a dedicated tow vehicle and just want to combine every day driving and towing, so they by a caravan. Each to their own, but I think insurers should double the premiums for large caravans and half them for semis and the smaller caravans, that might change the attitude and road safety.

regards
Gmd



-- Edited by vk6gmd on Thursday 12th of May 2022 08:52:34 PM

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DMaxer wrote:

i realise that towing an overweight caravan is not something that anyone should be doing Yobarr but I think you have got a little bit hysterical about the example you have given,

The person who was gaoled was doing much more than towing an overweight caravan, it was his manner of driving. He had several counts on his indictment and part of the Crown case was that he was overloaded.  In fact, it was alleged that he was more than 800kg overloaded when he crashed.

I don't think anyone on this forum is suggesting that they are blatantly disregarding their weights by this margin. I know from my legal experience, especially in remote areas like the Northern Territory, owners and drivers of trucks, especially road trains, are regularly in court for exceeding axle weights and I am yet to see anyone gaoled. If they were to have an accident it is then necessary to prove that the overweight axle caused the accident, not just be an additional factor.


Agreed about Roadtrains exceeding axle limits, but these are DOG trailers and they are inherently FAR more stable than are PIG trailers. And rarely are accidents involved with these court appearances. This is the very reason that most heavy vehicles ceased towing  PIG trailers almost 100 years, while the VERY few that still tow  PIG trailer for specialised tasks such as moving earthmoving equipment are managed by a rule that says that any vehicle with a GVM above 4500kg that tows a PIG trailer must ALWAYS have more weight on its wheels than is on the wheels of the towed PIG trailer.Simple physics that minimises the chances of the "Tail wagging the Dog" . Simple physics.The sooner such a law is enacted for ALL vehicles towing PIG trailers,(caravans) the safer we all will be. Cheers



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vk6gmd wrote:

The root of the problem is somewhere else I believe.

The industry practise and some regulations let to the situation that the payload of caravans is typically 300kg for a single-axle van and 400kg for a twin axle van. People have asked for more and more luxury and space and the vans get closer and closer to the typical towing limits of mid size cars and suv's not even allowing the full payload before being beyond the towing capacity. On top of that the tare weight is taken with very little in it, no additional battery, solar panel, tv, greywater tanks etc. This reduces the payload further. No wonder that so many are over the payload limits (ATM) and especially over the towing weight limit. You get forced into this situation by the industry, marketing, peer pressure and whatever else. Hard to get away from that circle.

I originally wanted to keep my gooseneck under 4.5t but got closer and closer to the 400kg payload limit and decided to put an end to this issue. I put air brakes under it with a steel subframe and now have 1.6t "real" payload. Caravans are inherently dangerous, whether overloaded or not, especially the big long ones with large overhang.

Semitrailers (gooseneck or fifth wheel) are much safer and an Iveco or such is half the price of a Landcruiser and can tow it safely. I guess most don't want or can't afford a dedicated tow vehicle and just want to combine every day driving and towing, so they by a caravan. Each to their own, but I think insurers should double the premiums for large caravans and half them for semis and the smaller caravans, that might change the attitude and road safety.

regards
Gmd


Great post that shows a good understanding of the physics involved here, and the problems some people face. As you suggest, 400kg is ridiculously low for a payload. My van carries over 400kg of water, but still has plenty of spare room before I reach my 3500kg ATM or my 3200kg GTM limits . on paper I have carrying capacity of over 1700kg, although this certainly would now be incorrect! You've highlighted the "large overhang" problem, with the associated dangers of yaw, while your thoughts on insurance premiums may be worthy of consideration. Cheers



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bratboy wrote:

Sorry but i disagree , if the issue was really as bad as some would have us believe i think there would be far more compliance inspections out on the roads .


 Not enough deaths as a result of this to warrant compliance inspections. More deaths = more policing.



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I've never really thought about it before but with 40-50 old farts dying daily of Covid-19 Australia wide, car & caravan accidents are a minor consideration.
Still not good though.

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bratboy wrote:

Oldbloke I'm not suggesting that there aren't overloaded vans out there , Just that the whole issue isn't the end of civilisation and humanity as we know it as some would suggest .


What's this: common sense and a grasp of reality....

I'm not sure you'll fit into this forum....

:)



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It's pretty simple really.
If you are grossly overweight and have an accident the involves injury or death, expect the worst!
The worst could be suspension of licence, hefty fines, denial of insurance claim or even jail.

Overloading your rig is not a good idea.

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"Edit: repeatedly posting g images of accidents or critical parts that have failed without all of the relevant information is simply scare mongering and designed to bait.

All of the photos that I post without claiming them as my own have been taken from the internet, so I fail to see how using them should be classed, by you, as "scare mongering"

Yep, posting images like those IS scare mongering because that is all it is, ONLY an image. Who knows what really happened.
Example being above of a van accident you posted. Ever thought the driver might be drunk, had a medical incident at the wheel, perhaps a tyre blow out?
Yet by posting in this thread your suggesting it was caused because of a weight issue, and you know it.



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Mike Harding wrote:
bratboy wrote:

Oldbloke I'm not suggesting that there aren't overloaded vans out there , Just that the whole issue isn't the end of civilisation and humanity as we know it as some would suggest .


What's this: common sense and a grasp of reality....

I'm not sure you'll fit into this forum....

:)


 Thanks Mike my aim in life has always been to not fit in biggrin



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bratboy wrote:

yes seriously . if you read my post i said i didn't think it was as bad as some would have us believe not that i didn't think it was an issue .

no overloaded vehicle should be on the road , just like nobody should be speeding but it still happens .



-- Edited by bratboy on Thursday 12th of May 2022 05:43:04 PM


Perhaps you could try and read what you post, that would make a good change!

I think you need to get out there and just see how bad it is

cheers

Ian



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as mentioned by OLDBLOKE the issue of a license to tow a caravan ect , or maybe a compulsory "tow safe " course , would make people who tow more aware of their responsibilities /obligations / limitations.


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dogbox wrote:

as mentioned by OLDBLOKE the issue of a license to tow a caravan ect , or maybe a compulsory "tow safe " course , would make people who tow more aware of their responsibilities /obligations / limitations.


 I have been suggesting a compulsory tow ed course for new caravanners for years.

Also any experienced vanner who commits any offence relating to his rig should also be required to do so.

It would also be helpful if the relevant authorities were to simplify some of the weight issues relating to caravans and tugs. Way too much useless and confusing information.



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dogbox wrote:

as mentioned by OLDBLOKE the issue of a license to tow a caravan ect , or maybe a compulsory "tow safe " course , would make people who tow more aware of their responsibilities /obligations / limitations.


 Seiously do you believe that, we have people required to do training to get a licence and yet everyday we encounter clowns who dont think those rules apply to them, where is the cutoff point before you need a licence endorsement to tow a trailer. would it be any trailer that needs registration or over 1000 kg ATM, remember in some states a caravan is just a trailer.

Then you will require 5 states and 2 territories to agree and I see that would take some time, and then do you automatically give that endorsement to everyone who has a proven ownership or history of towing a trailer, and how do you treat someone with higher endorsements than a car. Do we than have different classes of trailers that different endorsements.

It's not a simple excercise to have caravaners to get an endorsement to tow and do tow safe course, my guess it would take 5 to 10 years to get full compliance, give or take a few who wont comply just like some drivers who dont have a licence to drive a car.



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