yobarr wrote:

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Fantastic result,Rod,that shows that,despite disagreement from some other members,my assertion that it is easy to increase ATM above Axle Group Rating,has been proven to be correct. Took a while,but great to see that you have it sorted.Now all you have to do is get the Victron Lithium battery sorted,and you can set sail! Good result,and as I said,not expensive at $600. Cheers.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 20th of October 2021 08:41:34 PM

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travelyounger wrote:

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RobDor wrote:

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I know there has been some discussion on here about upgrading the ATM on a caravan, how to go about it,  what you can do, what you cant do etc. Well, I can share my experience on a completed upgrade and it may help you if youre considering the process. Ill start by saying the whole process took about 2 months and was inspected, mod designed and certified by a reputable engineer based in Townsville who specialises in these things.

My van, which is new to us, but not new is a 2015 built Millard 17ft off road, solid and well built. The Tare is 2200 with an ATM of 2600, so I knew I would be close to full ATM loaded up. With van loaded up and both my water tanks filled (2 x 120 litre tanks), my ATM was 2680 ! measured on weighbridge twice. So, I started the process of exploring options and I got some good pointers from users in this forum. I didnt want to travel with 1 water tank empty and constantly manage weights/water to keep legal. My tow rig can easily handle any additional weight, so I looked at increasing the ATM to 2800, so I could travel legally loaded up, water full and have some headroom.

i finally managed to get on to Lindsay Stone, Im in Cairns and hes in Townsville. We chatted and he said he would come see me on his next visit up here, and sure enough about 4 weeks later, Lindsay was here with pen, pad, tape, calculator etc. Upon inspection, and detailed report I might add, he ticked off all requirements for the upgrade, apart from I minor change. Chains, hitch, brakes, chassis, suspension, tyres, wheels (theres a couple of others??) all ok . One thing the van has is an extended drawbar, so in order to certify for extra weight, a piece of duragal flatbar, 600mm long and 50mm x 5mm had to be welded on the underneath of the drawbar, about midpoint where van chassis first meets the drawbar. Lindsay provided the necessary drawing and About $55 for a 3 metre length of flatbar, had it welded, advised Lindsay and sent pics of completed job and mod plate provided, but for 2750kg. I could have gone to 2800, but the actual wheel hubs are rated at 2750, so I didnt bother to upgrade the wheels, Im happy with the 2750.  I know I can travel loaded up and water full, be legal and have some headroom.  Was it worth it ? Hell yeah ! Apart from the flatbar, cost was $600 and he came to me at my place in Cairns !  I have attached pics of original plate, mod plate and flatbar, so you get an idea.  Cheers

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 Hi RobDor

Glad to see that you can get a bit of an upgrade on a single axle van which I am unaware of as I have only had tandem axle due to all the crap that we carry around. We were looking to downsize to a job gator single but the 400 kg payload would hardly cover the mrs clothes and I always travel with tanks full so I might be pushing the limits legally anyway .There would have to be a major clean out to be legal with a single axle van 

Cheers

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 Exactly right. I originally had the 400kg payload and now I have 550kg, which is more realistic and covers our needs. Im also about to gain another 37kg by replacing 2 x 130ah AGM with 1 x 200ah Lithium  - bonus !

Lostinplace wrote:

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Nice! What is your tow rig for that and its stated AGM? I'd be interested to know what can tow that and still be within its AGM being loaded also, maybe I'll have to get one as well. I'm a bit limited with my Landcruiser's AGM and what I can tow.

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 When I visited Rob at his home to have a look at his van,I saw that his car is a BT50 with GCM of 6000kg.Given that the GVM of the car is 3200kg,and that you can never reach that figure because of weight removed from front axle by towball weight,and the van now is 2750kg ATM, the  best he will be able to get is about 5600kg GCM.Still miles to play with,but most importantly,the car is waaay heavier than the van (about 25% heavier) and thus very safe.IF you need help with sorting your weights,you may wish to PM me,but,briefly,the best you can SAFELY tow with an LC200 is around 3000kg.Fact.Indisputable.Cheers

Paul, what is this AGM you are talking about. It does not feature in the official definitions. You can download the list from here -
Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005 - this takes you to the latest list.

Sorry Guys

I mean ATM

Paul

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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Paulp wrote:

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Hi Guys

Have had my AGM upgraded by 600 KG with no mods
Caravan is a Regent 2006 19.6ft tandem
Original ATM 2300kg now 2900kg
axils had rating of 3.2T from factory
Chassis was rated by c&G to 2900kg from factory
wheels and tyres all rated above what was required from factory
Easy just parted with aprox $400 for the engineer to go over it
and all done in Brisbane
Happy Days
Paul

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 So why was it not rated to 2900kg at the factory? It could and should have been. Cost ZERO.

Cheers,Peter

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 Hi Peter.The reason that some vans are not issued with higher ATMs at the factory is simply to protect dipsticks who do not,can not,and will not, understand weights.Huge numbers of people seem not to understand that a vehicle that is rated to tow only 3000kg ATM can indeed legally tow a van that has an ATM of 3500kg,provided that that van is NOT loaded above 3000kg total weight.The number of people who have no idea about weights was today illustrated to me by a couple who were towing a 2900kg ATM van with a Navara.Seems they had 290kg towball weight,and obviously were overloaded on the car's lightweight 1750kg rear axle! Never heard of the fact that,with 290kg TBW,Navaras are not only well over their 1750kg rear axle capacity,but they also have lost 280kg off their GVM. "No problem" they reckon,so they loaded two spare wheels and a generator onto the rear of the van to "balance it up".This dropped the towball weight to only 190kg,or a ridiculous,and DANGEROUS,6.5%.They could not understand that a van with GTM of 2710kg,and 6.5% towball weight,behind a car with total weight on wheels of no more than 2630kg is an accident looking for a place to happen.BUT today I did meet a chap with a Ram 1500,towing a 4400kg ATM van,who said he'd just realised that "It's a bloody con job and I've now got to spend thousands on a GVM upgrade,and the re-rated rear axle".He wasn't even sure that he would then be legal.With a PIG trailer,this is highly unlikely.The sooner a law is enacted that says the weight on the wheels of the tow vehicle MUST be more than the weight on the wheels of any PIG trailer it is towing,the safer we all will be.Simple physics.Cheers

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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With resect, in my opinion that is garbage. It protects no one.
If people are not interested enough to know what weight they actually are and what weight they can safely and legally tow, having a low ATM will make no difference to them being legal, or safe, or not.
Cheers,
Peter

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 I understand your thoughts,Peter,but trying  to make Ma and Pa Kettle understand that their 3000kg rated Triton,or some other dreamers' machine, can indeed tow a 3500 ATM van,would be terribly frustrating to any salesman.Easier for him to to say "Here we go,Ma and Pa.Your Triton can tow 3000kg,(it can't safely) and this van is only 2950kg,so absolutely PERFECT for you".Unfortunately,we must always be on the alert to protect stupid people from themselves.From my time on the road,I would say that fewer than 10% of caravanners have ANY idea of their weights,and fewer again even care.It's a complicated situation,but,as I have previously said,the sooner a law is enacted that says that ALWAYS the towing vehicle MUST weigh more than any PIG trailer it is towing,the safer we all will be.Thanks for your thoughts.Cheers

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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montie wrote:

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Contrary to the views of some people on this forum the vast majority of caravan buyers use the plated ATM as the yardstick for the towing capabilities of their tug.
Manufacturers are aware of this and know that setting a very high ATM will exclude a large portion of market and instead may set their ATM giving a reasonable payload figure with the option of a free ATM upgrade before the new van is registered. The limiting factor for such upgrades is usually the Axle Group Rating or the chassis rating.

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That is because many (including yourself, Montie) were of the view that it was not legal to tow a trailer if the ATM exceeded the tow vehicle's max tow weight.

That belief has been debunked long ago.

Those who continue to operate under this false belief are doing the customers a great disservice as the OP of this thread has discovered to his cost. He is not alone.

Cheers,

Peter

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 I have always held the view that the caravan's ATM should not exceed the tugs towing capacity because it achieves no advantage other than possibly forfeiting valuable payload capacity.

Plus as explained in my previous post manufacturers are disadvantaged by doing so when there is a simple solution.

Manufacturers are reacting to market demand by assuming their vans will be loaded to the maximum ATM.

KevinJ wrote:

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I was under the impression that a vehicle with a Maximum Tow Mass (Braked) of say 3000kg could tow a caravan with an ATM of say 3500kg PROVIDED the mass of the caravan while sitting alone on a weighbridge with both the rear axles and the jockey wheel on the weighbridge did not weigh more than the 3000kg the vehicle is allowed to tow (I'm assuming all other ratings are not exceeded in this example). Illogical if you want to load it with gear and go travelling but what if a friend asks you to take his van from Site A and deliver it to Site B and the van is empty?

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Hi Kevin.What you suggest is correct.Cheers 

I don't know why many people on this site are so contemptuous of the general public when discussing their knowledge of caravan towing weights. If the public is told a car can tow a maximum weight of 3500kg by the car manufacturer why should they question this? Most people have never seen anything other than pig trailers. I've only ever seen one picture of a car towing anything but a pig trailer (Leyland Brothers photo). So everyone will assume that their maximum tow weight is with a caravan. I think that no one would then start looking into the maximum rear axle weight, because the car manufacturer has said that they can tow up to maximum tow weight.

Who would think that, for example, a Nissan Patrol Y62 with manufacturers specs stating a maximum car weight of 3500kg, a maximum towing weight of 3500kg, and a maximum overall combined weight of 7000kg would only be able to tow a fully loaded caravan with an ATM of 2800kg (I think this is the figure yobarr gave in one post). Fortunately my caravan only weighs about 1800kg fully loaded so I'm well within limits.