WDHs verses Upgrades

oldbloke · Guru

WDHs verses Upgrades

yobarr · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
So I'm a little puzzled. Some people have their tow vehicles tow rating up graded and because its now level do not use a WDH.

As has been discussed many times the WDH distributes some TBW load off the rear axle onto the front wheels and the van axles.

Am I wrong or does the rating increase primarily done by simply installing more/stiffer leaf springs? Perhaps also beef up the chassis?

If this is the case, wouldn't the rear axle still act as a fulcrum thereby taking most of the weight and also reducing the weight/load on the front wheels (perhaps not as bad) resulting in poorer braking and steering? Sure, head lights would remain aligned. I get the feeling its not much different to using air bags? Think see-saw.

Ummm, let's keep this civil. :)

Hi Neil...later today I will try to answer your questions,but it must be noted that a WDH does NOT change towball weight,EVER.It simply DISTRIBUTES weight from the car's rear axle to both the car's front axle,and the van's axle group.Airbags do NOT transfer any weight,and do little more than make the car look pretty,and perhaps ride better? Cheers

oldbloke · Guru

Yobarr, I said,

"As has been discussed many times the WDH distributes some TBW load off the rear axle onto the front wheels and the van axles."

oldbloke · Guru

"Airbags do NOT transfer any weight"

I didn't say that do:

I said:
"I get the feeling its not much different to using air bags? "

Suggesting using them is perhaps the same as stiffer leaf springs.

orid · Senior Member

oldbloke ,
you need a bigger gun.
Orid

oldbloke · Guru

This has been posted in the past I think.

About 13 minutes long. Explains what happens when using WDH and air bags.

IMO airbags and stiffer leaf springs would give very similar results.

youtu.be/XBZu39pQ8Gg

oldbloke · Guru

Yobarr, you criticised me in another tread for waiting 3 days to reply.

FYI it is now 11 days. Mate, could you please reply.

yobarr · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
Yobarr, you criticised me in another tread for waiting 3 days to reply.

FYI it is now 11 days. Mate, could you please reply.

With respect Neil,there was no need to reply to your post.You wrote "IMO airbags and stiffer leaf springs would give very similar results".This is 100% correct,but I didn't realise that you needed to be congratulated for stating the obvious.My mistake.Sorry.Cheers

oldbloke · Guru

Soo, upgrades are a bit of a waste really. Front wheels are still going to have sub standard steering and braking. Upgrades simply level the tow vehicle. Right?

Rob Driver · Guru

Hi oldbloke

Wether you have an upgrade or not, the transfer of weight toward the front axle can only be achieved by moving the load which is generally impossible with a vehicle and van, or fit a WDH as is indicated in the video in your link.
Levelling with stronger springs or airbags will not transfer any significant weight from the ball to the steer axle.

Regards

Rob

-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Tuesday 20th of April 2021 08:05:05 AM

oldbloke · Guru

bentaxlebabe wrote:
Hi oldbloke

Wether you have an upgrade or not, the transfer of weight toward the front axle can only be achieved by moving the load which is generally impossible with a vehicle and van, or fit a WDH as is indicated in the video in your link.
Levelling with stronger springs or airbags will not transfer any significant weight from the ball to the steer axle.

Regards

Rob

-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Tuesday 20th of April 2021 08:05:05 AM

Yes, that's what I believe. Thanks for the comments. So you get an upgrade, you can legally add weight to the vehicle, BUT, the front brakes and steering is still likely compromised. Seems a backward step to me when towing.

I've often wondered if having a WDH is the best option. In preference to an upgrade. I'm now convinced it is.

thomas01 · Senior Member

I have absolutely no opinion on this matter because I don't have the technical knowledge to argue the case for any of the options. But, if I was trying to decide which was the best way to go, I would not be relying on the advice of retired or backyard "experts" who may or may not have had personal experience with the topic.

Something that could cost a lot of money and , if not done correctly, cost lives, should be left to the people who's livelihoods and reputations are on the line. My suggestion would be to get into a serious conversation with an engineer who knows the pros and cons of the different options and form your opinion from them. You can then come back into the discussion with the facts provided by a "reputable expert" and tell all on the forum what they said. "Reputable experts" generally do not mind being quoted.

There is no need to get into a bun fight over the "You thought I said this, but I actually said that" nit picking. Even though the banter between members can sometimes be entertaining to others, the antagonists from both sides lose credibility by continuing ridiculous personal feuds.

My point is. When in doubt, ask the experts.

I think I might take my medications now.

Regards to all. Robert.

oldbloke · Guru

Thanks Robert. I agree, asking a qualified person is always best. Unfortunately they are in short supply. May I suggest you have a look at the YouTube video that I posted a link to in my first post. Looks conclusive to me.

thomas01 · Senior Member

I have watched the video. As I said previously I do not have the technical know how to fully understand everything they showed, however I did take note of a couple of facts which intrigued me.

First of all they need to put new batteries in their calculator as some of the totals were slightly incorrect.

Secondly, they use a tow ball weight of over 20% of trailer weight for their demonstration. Is that standard practice in the USA?

The other thing which I noted was that this is a video recommending WDH's, put out by a company which sells WDH's. How convenient.

I am not yet convinced that their findings are unbiased or if using different weights could greatly change the outcome.

Robert.

oldbloke · Guru

"I am not yet convinced that their findings are unbiased or if using different weights could greatly change the outcome."

They may be biased, I'm unsure. But that's the problem, most so called "experts" are selling something.

But it is I think agreed that a WDH distributes the TBW to the van and mainly front wheels. Heavy duty springs can't do that. Like yourself I'm also learning.

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Here is a post from another topic that I posted indicating Hayman Reeses explanation of how, when on a weighbridge it is proven that the weight is transferred to the other axles while using a WDH.

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

It probably should be noted here that the use of a WDH is subject to the manufacturers recommendation.

There are a few vehicles that can have problems with the chassis if. WDH is used.

Read the handbook and the manual or contact the manufacturer..

montie · Guru

As the name suggests a WDH distributes weight from the tugs rear axle to front axle and a percentage to the van axles.

It cannot make weight disappear, if you want that to happen, unhook the van!

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
As the name suggests a WDH distributes weight from the tugs rear axle to front axle and a percentage to the van axles.
It cannot make weight disappear, if you want that to happen, unhook the van!

Thanks for this post Montie.Unfortunately,it seems that at least one member has a very short memory,or is perhaps being mischievous? Many times I have explained,in great detail,with references to John Cadogan's videos and several publications,that a WDH does NOT change towball weight. Period. Because today I plan to dig,by hand,a 20 metre trench 600mm deep for a power cable,I do not have time to again show facts,so I will post a couple of screen shots from a thread "Towing limitations discussed" that I started on January 1,2021. If,after reading that thread,a person still cannot understand that a WDH does NOT change towball weight,there is little hope for them.The garbage that some write doesn't worry me too much,but I am concerned that newbies will be misled.

oldbloke · Guru

Deleted, double post

-- Edited by oldbloke on Wednesday 21st of April 2021 08:58:29 AM

oldbloke · Guru

Note each "box" with a weight is directly under where the weight is transferred onto the ground. It clearly states 220kg when not coupled. (weight on jockey wheel) Then when coupled, 0kg on the jockey wheel. (second & third lines) Therefore I believe the image indicates the ball weight although still there has been distributed to the other 4 Axles to the ground. Its no longer on the jockey wheel. So its not nonsense at all, its correct.

Edit to further clarify.

Line 1 indicates 5 points where weight is transferred to the ground, jockey + 4 axles.

Line 2 indicates 4 points where weight is transferred to the ground being axles only. But WDH NOT in use.

Line 3 indicates 4 points where weight is transferred to the ground being axles only. But WDH IS in use

A light bulb moment for some I think.

-- Edited by oldbloke on Wednesday 21st of April 2021 08:59:38 AM

-- Edited by oldbloke on Wednesday 21st of April 2021 09:11:49 AM

montie · Guru

Oldbloke,

Firstly you need to contact HR and inform them of this error as they do state the direct opposite on their website.

Secondly a hitched van with a zero ball weight would be untowable.

Thirdly why do I get the feeling that you already know all this. smile

oldbloke · Guru

Monies, reed my editing.

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Yobarr,

You know what, I recon I know you from older driving days. You have quite a reputation and you certainly haven't changed, Chris P.

Your pic of mine from a Hayman Reese website is unfortunately lacking the circled yellow display of the coupling ball weight when the WDH is connected. You may not want anyone to see that detail.

After you dig your hole do you think that you could supply for all the members on here ACTUAL WEIGHBRIDGE PROOF that the amount of Tow Ball or coupling weight DOES NOT transfer to the front axle and van axle.

Dont come back just waving your arms and crying that you know better than anyone else. Come back with WEIGHBRIDGE PROOF.

Here is how you do it just in case you are confused.

Weigh each axle of the tow vehicle.

Weigh the axle group of the van.

Weigh the tow ball weight of the van disconnected from the vehicle.

Connect the van to the tow vehicle.

Weigh each axle group again with the WDH correctly installed.

Record the increase in the front axle.

Record the increase in the van axle group.

Inform us all that the sum of the amount of the increase in both axles is equal to the original ball weight of the caravan or trailer.

There is NO WEIGHT LOST FROM THE GCM.

It is moved TO THE FRONT AXLE OF THE TOW VEHICLE AND TO THE AXLE GROUP OF THE VAN FROM THE TOW BALL.

The weighbridge exercise proves this.

oldbloke · Guru

To perhaps further clarify.
The 0kg indicate the jockey wheel is no longer under load. The TBW has now been transferred to the other axles.

The image is IMO is correct if taken in the context that they are weights under the Tow ball and axles.

Even the yellow high lited statement says the TBW is still there but now transferred to the axles. But this needs to be read in context.

Once the van is connected to the car the TBW is immediately transferred (mostly) to the rear axle of the car.
The WDH distributes that TBW weight more evenly over 4 axles.

So, without a WDH, with or without an up grade or air bags IMO the steering will still be compromised. Reason being the rear axle is still taking most of the TBW. Therefore some weight is removed from the front axle.

Gundog · Guru

Where the whole subject of the use of a WDH goes to shiit, only half the infomation is used to complete the story.

Number 1 you need to establish what is the reason for considering to use a weight distribution system, is could be a requirement by your tow vehicle manufacture or your steering has become light and unsafe etc etc.

So you have decided to use a WDH, what comes first READ THE INSTALLATION FITTING INSTRUCTIONS, and then follow the setup instructions, it may be an interest to you that almost every maunfacture of weight distribution systems do not use weights during the setup, its all based on measurements and reasoning behind that is its about getting both the caravan and tow vehicle level before and after connecting them together.

When we have them connected and they are level, now is the time to head to a weighbridge to check your weights, and make minor adjustments like hitch head angle or lift bar tension.

Remember all this is a waste of time if both units are not loaded as if you were leaving on your holiday.

Oh and towball weight is a nonsence as soon as the two units are connected together, because its unmeasurable.

oldbloke · Guru

Gundog wrote:
Where the whole subject of the use of a WDH goes to shiit, only half the infomation is used to complete the story.
Number 1 you need to establish what is the reason for considering to use a weight distribution system, is could be a requirement by your tow vehicle manufacture or your steering has become light and unsafe etc etc.
So you have decided to use a WDH, what comes first READ THE INSTALLATION FITTING INSTRUCTIONS, and then follow the setup instructions, it may be an interest to you that almost every maunfacture of weight distribution systems do not use weights during the setup, its all based on measurements and reasoning behind that is its about getting both the caravan and tow vehicle level before and after connecting them together.
When we have them connected and they are level, now is the time to head to a weighbridge to check your weights, and make minor adjustments like hitch head angle or lift bar tension.
Remember all this is a waste of time if both units are not loaded as if you were leaving on your holiday.
Oh and towball weight is a nonsence as soon as the two units are connected together, because its unmeasurable.

I agree.

yobarr · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:
Yobarr,

You know what, I recon I know you from older driving days. You have quite a reputation and you certainly haven't changed, Chris P.

Your pic of mine from a Hayman Reese website is unfortunately lacking the circled yellow display of the coupling ball weight when the WDH is connected. You may not want anyone to see that detail.

After you dig your hole do you think that you could supply for all the members on here ACTUAL WEIGHBRIDGE PROOF that the amount of Tow Ball or coupling weight DOES NOT transfer to the front axle and van axle.

Dont come back just waving your arms and crying that you know better than anyone else. Come back with WEIGHBRIDGE PROOF.

Here is how you do it just in case you are confused.

Weigh each axle of the tow vehicle.

Weigh the axle group of the van.

Weigh the tow ball weight of the van disconnected from the vehicle.

Connect the van to the tow vehicle.

Weigh each axle group again with the WDH correctly installed.

Record the increase in the front axle.

Record the increase in the van axle group.

Inform us all that the sum of the amount of the increase in both axles is equal to the original ball weight of the caravan or trailer.

There is NO WEIGHT LOST FROM THE GCM.

It is moved TO THE FRONT AXLE OF THE TOW VEHICLE AND TO THE AXLE GROUP OF THE VAN FROM THE TOW BALL.

The weighbridge exercise proves this.

Because it is becoming somewhat tiresome repeating the truth about WDH systems,and the associated effects,I have elected to simply post a couple of screen shots of previous posts.Please READ and ABSORB the facts shown,rather than just viewing the words.Note that the "Directly from the Hayman Reece website" Please note..."DIRECTLY FROM THE HAYMAN REECE WEBSITE".If Hayman Reece state "...ball weight remains the same" surely that can be accepted as fact? You also could pay particular attention to my own weighing exercise,that CLEARLY showed that a WDH does NOT,repeat NOT,change towball weight.If the simple physics involved still is beyond your comprehension,there is little hope that you'll ever understand the effects of a WDH.Good luck! Cheers

KJB · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:
Yobarr,

You know what, I recon I know you from older driving days. You have quite a reputation and you certainly haven't changed, Chris P.

Your pic of mine from a Hayman Reese website is unfortunately lacking the circled yellow display of the coupling ball weight when the WDH is connected. You may not want anyone to see that detail.

After you dig your hole do you think that you could supply for all the members on here ACTUAL WEIGHBRIDGE PROOF that the amount of Tow Ball or coupling weight DOES NOT transfer to the front axle and van axle.

Dont come back just waving your arms and crying that you know better than anyone else. Come back with WEIGHBRIDGE PROOF.

Here is how you do it just in case you are confused.

Weigh each axle of the tow vehicle.

Weigh the axle group of the van.

Weigh the tow ball weight of the van disconnected from the vehicle.

Connect the van to the tow vehicle.

Weigh each axle group again with the WDH correctly installed.

Record the increase in the front axle.

Record the increase in the van axle group.

Inform us all that the sum of the amount of the increase in both axles is equal to the original ball weight of the caravan or trailer.

There is NO WEIGHT LOST FROM THE GCM.

It is moved TO THE FRONT AXLE OF THE TOW VEHICLE AND TO THE AXLE GROUP OF THE VAN FROM THE TOW BALL.

The weighbridge exercise proves this.

Great opportunity to unhitch if there is no weight on the tow ball - should be able to lift the coupling off easily with one hand .... why don't people do this.... and remove the WDH last.!

montie · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
Gundog wrote:

Oh and towball weight is a nonsence as soon as the two units are connected together, because its unmeasurable.
I agree.

I agree that In the context of this discussion ball weight is irrelevant because it cannot be measured however it can never be zero......a zero ball weight would render the van untowable.