Should you have a RV license to drive any R?

oldbloke · Guru

RE: Should you have a RV license to drive any R?

Wanda · Guru

Old fella, not sure where I said any of that, just your own ignorant interpretation
have agood day
Ian

dogbox · Guru

Wanda wrote:

Have to agree with Les B, all the training and regulations in the worlds will NOT stop "bad", "impatient" and "don't care" attitude in Aust today. And not JUST on our roads.

We are overregulated as it is and loosing the freedoms we all grey up and enjoyed, its seems as you get older our generation see a need to change all that.

regards

Ian

PS : get over it and stop ya wihnging

training and regulations would go a long way to keeping the bad, impatient and don,t care people to a minimum.

go to utube an see the things people think they are entitled to do on the roads, sooner or later they are taken to task an the courts seem to be very lenient as long as they have not killed anyone an when they do we hear about their long list of offences

bgt · Guru

We don't have a tv or radio license anymore. That's a positive isn't it?? :)

It's all about awareness. To tow a trailer, caravan or bus conversion you should be required to be 'aware' of what you are letting yourself in for.

oldbloke · Guru

Wanda wrote:
Have to agree with Les B, all the training and regulations in the worlds will NOT stop "bad", "impatient" and "don't care" attitude in Aust today. And not JUST on our roads.
We are overregulated as it is and loosing the freedoms we all grey up and enjoyed, its seems as you get older our generation see a need to change all that.
regards
Ian
PS : get over it and stop ya wihnging

I think you strongly infered that training and regulation were a waist of time.

OB

oldbloke · Guru

dogbox wrote:

could some of the people who object to some form of training for up grading of license to tow a 2- 3.5 ton trailer may be worried they might find their skills lacking?

drive a >4.5 GVM vehicle license upgrade required ---- drive GCM 6 ton no upgrade

For some that would be true. And also some that are unwilling or unable to learn.

oldbloke · Guru

Sooo, does anyone know how many deaths a year on the road involved in towing a van?

I mean, is it a storm in a tea cup.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

I have a heavy driver licence since I was 22 and advanced driver training x 2, plus repeated 1 just cos I could, with certificate's and 9 years experience towing so don't think it is needed to another course IMO.

To answer your question Neil, also IMO, I think it a storm in a tea cup or maybe even a mug.

I'm sure others will probably disagree and that's fine.

Edit...clicked wrong button.

It doesn't matter how much training etc a driver does as there will always be some idiot that just doesn't give a hoot. Just like fellow campers, some just don't care about others around them.

-- Edited by Dougwe on Monday 18th of January 2021 11:50:39 AM

dogbox · Guru

Dougwe wrote:

I have a heavy driver licence since I was 22 and advanced driver training x 2, plus repeated 1 just cos I could, with certificate's and 9 years experience towing so don't think it is needed to another course IMO.

To answer your question Neil, also IMO, I think it a storm in a tea cup or maybe even a mug.

I'm sure others will probably disagree and that's fine.

Edit...clicked wrong button.
It doesn't matter how much training etc a driver does as there will always be some idiot that just doesn't give a hoot. Just like fellow campers, some just don't care about others around them.

-- Edited by Dougwe on Monday 18th of January 2021 11:50:39 AM

i spent a lot of years travelling the hyways and byways of this country in heavy vehicles, been driver tested an accessed just about every time i changed jobs or just for the sake of keeping a driver trainer in a job. any company that complies with oh&s has some form of driver training it is just an on going thing.

when i'm travelling at 100 kph and another vehicle big or small is coming at me at 100 kph i always hope they are a better driver than i am .

we may consider that most people that hold a standard license have had little (if any) refresher courses since they passed their test

-- Edited by dogbox on Monday 18th of January 2021 12:21:52 PM

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

As a former advanced driver trainer, specialising in heavy vehicles (mostly post-licence) I could give lots of opinions, but I will stick to a couple:

* Licensing does NOT mean competence
* Any training is good training, however you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink - training does not mean competence
* Good training delivered well fades with time if the recipient does not keep practicing the learnt skills and knowledge

Trev's words of advice, 'If every person drove like they did the day/time they went for their licence the roads would be safer', however this statement does not apply for the over-the counter licence tests, or around the block licence tests

I generally stay out of these debates.

In my years on the road, I have seen very bad car drivers (towing a range of things), motorbike riders, truck drivers & bus drivers, no-one is exempt from shyte driving

A couple of questions for people to ponder:
1. When was the last time you got a traffic infringement?
2. When was the last time you had a 'your at fault' traffic incident, including those very small bumps and rubs that don't get claimed on the insurance?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

Would I be the only 'qualified' person on here to make comment?

I should also say I spent about 4 years as a HV licence tester for a private provider (not Vicroads or RTA)

I drove trucks, up to B-Doubles from about July 1976 until late 2000

Towed my first caravan in August 1977 (on our honeymoon)

-- Edited by Trevor 57 on Monday 18th of January 2021 12:46:10 PM

oldbloke · Guru

I was asking. Is it a storm in a tea cup?
Rather than saying it is.

Is there any data to support a lic of some sort? i.e number of fatalities.

I'm inclined to think we need something. But, what, is another question. And agree, training and lic does not guarantee anything, but might be a good start.
Attitude is a big part of it.

bgt · Guru

Storm in a tea cup? How would you measure the size of the storm or the cup? By deaths involving towed vehicles? By accidents by towed vehicles? Or just close calls by towed vehicles? Or by unroadworthy towed vehicle combinations that cause other accidents or frustrations?

It's easy to do nothing. But 'nothing' helps those who come undone in one way or anther due to towing incidents. We are all aware of incidents. How many incidents aren't we aware of?

There is a problem. Someone has to define that problem and find a suitable solution to the problem. Throw ones hands in the air and yelling 'too hard' isn't a solution.

dogbox · Guru

time for a rerun of lucy ball in THE LONG TRAILER

learn as you go

oldbloke · Guru

bgt wrote:
Storm in a tea cup? How would you measure the size of the storm or the cup? By deaths involving towed vehicles? By accidents by towed vehicles? Or just close calls by towed vehicles? Or by unroadworthy towed vehicle combinations that cause other accidents or frustrations?

It's easy to do nothing. But 'nothing' helps those who come undone in one way or anther due to towing incidents. We are all aware of incidents. How many incidents aren't we aware of?

There is a problem. Someone has to define that problem and find a suitable solution to the problem. Throw ones hands in the air and yelling 'too hard' isn't a solution.

BGT I think we are on the same side/page here.

But perceptions may not be supported by fact. I can't find data relating to van related fatalities, incidents.

And some people will say, 1 death is too many, 40 hrs in class training and 40 practical training required. Others will say,, only 100 deaths, don't worry. Nothing required.

The solution(s) need to be rational, not emotional.

Knowing the number of accidents and fatalities would be a start for that decision making process.

OB

bgt · Guru

Oldbloke it's one of those subjects where emotions over ride the facts. It has been said that young drivers make up most of the accidents. That may be a fact. But young drivers also do a lot more driving. So maybe there should be a measure like accidents per hour or kilometers driven. So then apply the same logic to accident/incidents per kilometer driven for towed vehicles. An does incidents include broken suspension because of overloading? Transmission problems because of overloading? It's all about awareness. The solution maynot be in the actual driving licence. The solution may be at point of sale or .......?

Noelpolar · Veteran Member

Wanda wrote:
Old fella, not sure where I said any of that, just your own ignorant interpretation
have agood day
Ian

You didn't.

Wanda · Guru

Old bloke, Just your interpretation

-- Edited by Wanda on Tuesday 19th of January 2021 09:14:09 AM

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

Unfortunately the best way to get good data is record near misses (hits) and they give a better picture, but they impossible to collect data on

oldbloke · Guru

Trevor 57 wrote:
Unfortunately the best way to get good data is record near misses (hits) and they give a better picture, but they impossible to collect data on

Yep.

Greg 1 · Guru

You know what they say about statistics. Even if you can get the data on fatal crashes involving towed trailers, I doubt that it will give you the circumstances or who was at fault. I lost some friends years ago, on the Brand Hwy. They were travelling north with their van when a truck veered onto the wrong side of the road and hit them head on. Both killed instantly. The truckie fell asleep at the wheel. I doubt the circumstances surrounding their deaths would show up. All the training in the world will not avoid certain situations like that, so in terms of determining whether training or licensing is necessary, statistical data can be very rubbery.

dogbox · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:

You know what they say about statistics.
Even if you can get the data on fatal crashes involving towed trailers, I doubt that it will give you the circumstances or who was at fault.
I lost some friends years ago, on the Brand Hwy. They were travelling north with their van when a truck veered onto the wrong side of the road and hit them head on. Both killed instantly. The truckie fell asleep at the wheel. I doubt the circumstances surrounding their deaths would show up.
All the training in the world will not avoid certain situations like that, so in terms of determining whether training or licensing is necessary, statistical data can be very rubbery.

not knowing how long ago, nor the circumstances of the accident , driver education in regards to driver fatigue is now a big part of heavy vehicle driver education . had there been more awareness / education /training at the time the accident may have been avoided

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

dogbox wrote:

Not knowing how long ago, nor the circumstances of the accident , driver education in regards to driver fatigue is now a big part of heavy vehicle driver education . had there been more awareness / education /training at the time the accident may have been avoided

I was delivering fatigue training to truck drivers as far back as 1988 for Australia's largest driver training organisation. I later delivered the Nationally accredited fatigue training to drivers who needed it for BFM

-- Edited by Trevor 57 on Tuesday 19th of January 2021 11:51:21 AM

Greg 1 · Guru

I am not arguing about training but rather pointing out that statistical data cannot always be relied apon to determine a particular course of action. Take for instance Government using police data on traffic accidents on a country road to determine speed limits and camera placements. When a police constable is filling in the report on the computer it has a section that asks whether speed was a factor. The response is either yes or no. Since anything above 60kph is considered a factor, therefore the response is yes. It doesn't tell you if the drivers were actually speeding as in breaking the law, and in fact they may have been driving less than the limit, but because they were travelling at a higher than metro limit, speed was considered a factor regardless whether it had any substantive cause or not to the accident. Governments rely on this sort of nonsense data to argue for lower limits or more speed cameras. This is where relying on lies, lies and damn statistics can end up with stupid decisions being made.

Bicyclecamper · Guru

Back in the day, I remember, that the speed limit( or I think it was a limit) restriction, for towing was 90km phr, I think that could be brought back in. As a trucky, I was a 90-95km phr driver, no amount of hassling from members of our family company, could get me to drive faster. I still got there in time to deliver the load, and quite a bit more rested then the other drivers. Today, I am still a 90-95km phr, driver, whether towing or not. I just seem to be able to pull up quicker then everybody else. It seems this intention of mine from day one to drive no faster that that speed, has kept me alive a lot longer then most.

dogbox · Guru

Trevor 57 wrote:

dogbox wrote:

Not knowing how long ago, nor the circumstances of the accident , driver education in regards to driver fatigue is now a big part of heavy vehicle driver education . had there been more awareness / education /training at the time the accident may have been avoided

I was delivering fatigue training to truck drivers as far back as 1988 for Australia's largest driver training organisation. I later delivered the Nationally accredited fatigue training to drivers who needed it for BFM

-- Edited by Trevor 57 on Tuesday 19th of January 2021 11:51:21 AM

it was about the mid 80's that work place safety (oh&s) started to become the norm for all businesses not just the big companies.
driver training was part of it, if you wanted to drive a few extra hours you needed BFM(basic fatigue management). joe average who gets his/her car license at 16-17 years old may never get any refresher or up grade training after passing their test.

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

The Victorian OHS Act came into force in 1984

oldbloke · Guru

Trevor 57 wrote:
The Victorian OHS Act came into force in 1984

Mmmm, I thought it was 1985. No matter.

It was based on the UK OHS Act.

Many, many companies still struggle (or refuse ) comply.

dogbox · Guru

different states different dates ? mid 80's should cover it if it matters. prior to that a lot of thing we did because we could an we knew how to do them then we had to be educated to be qualified to do what we were already doing.

Les Bishop · Member

I think that their are enough rules and regulations already. They just need enforcing and just because someone needs a different license than someone else doesnt mean they have to be regulated any more . We need more people to en force the rules that are already there , I live on a main road in the country and see this everyday people breaking rules and having no consideration for any one else. You hardly ever see a traffic policeman or any other policeman , if want do some good in this community lobby for more policemen not more rules with no one to enforce them