A second hand Nissan Patrol would handle van - I was under the opinion that Pajero could handle that ATM (dependent on cabin loadings) Seek expert advice from an actual Automotive Engineer suggest Colin Young at Caravan Council Of Australia.
www.caravancouncil.com.au/contact

Have a really good read of the Ford Specs David. They have conflicting tow weights for this engine and currently advertise one model FMX with " uncompromised towing of 3500kg, but next one is only 2500kg.

Be prepared for an avalanche

M80 D wrote:

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My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg 

Tare 2584 kg

 

Our current tug 2009 NT Pajero is unsuitable for this van and we are looking at either the Mazda BT 80 or the Ford Ranger Raptor with a GVM upgrade on either. I need to know if one is better than the other for ease of towing. The ford is a big unit with only a 2.0 lt turbo 10 speed motor and I'm leaning more to the BT 50. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I have added redarc brakes, 12 pin plug and clearview mirrors to the pajero in readiness for the van and have just been given the weights.  

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Sorry but why you order a van without knowing its weights ?

Greg 1 wrote:

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The Ranger Raptor will not tow your van. The Raptor had its towing capacity reduced to 2500kgs due to the different rear suspension in that model. If you want a top of the range Ranger then the Wildtrak is your only choice for that van as that is still rated at 3500kgs. However, having said that, in practical terms a Ranger can really only tow around 3100 kgs and the BT50 slightly less primarily due to their GCM capacities. Note that even if a GCM upgrade is legal in your State, they have the potential to null and void your manufacturers warranty as they are non manufacturer approved upgrades. GCM upgrades are illegal in some states. WA being one of them.

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 Great post Greg....tells it how it is.Neither of David's selections will do the job.Cheers

Thank you all. Advice taken. Looks like the Discovery D4 is my only real option

Found the answer that may help others not in the know but may like to know. Hope that this helps those interested .autoexpert.com.au/posts/complete-heavy-towing-guide-gvm-gcm-payload-towball-limits-explained

The Discovery is not perfect either due to limits on the rear axle load. At maximum GVM it can only have a ball weight of 150kgs. If you have a ball weight of 350kgs the GVM drops by 200kgs to keep within the axle loadings. With regards to the Ranger you cannot just go off payload. My Wildtrak has a kerb weight of 2270kgs. Take that off the GCM of 6000kgs and you are left with 3730kgs minus the van at Max ATM of 3300kgs and you are left with 430kgs. Whilst the ball weight doesn't have to come out of that because its included in the ATM, by the time you take a full tank of fuel, a couple of passengers and the dog plus an odd accessory or two there isn't much left for anything else in the ute I can tell you. The last trip away, I had a handful of tools, a Weber baby Q a couple of folding chairs and plastic table plus my wifes carbon fibre wheelchair which is all of 9kgs and I had 70kgs spare in the car with the two of us and a full tank. My van has an ATM of 2980kgs and a ball weight on that trip of 308kgs. I was 140kgs under my ATM on the van. Like I said, in practical terms the Ranger is good for about 3100kgs Max towing. Weights are an absolute minefield, and you need to look far beyond the surface numbers to see if everything adds up. I have found that most vehicles may look good initially but have hidden flaws that limit their actual true capacity and things are not always how they first seem.

Greg 1 wrote:

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The Discovery is not perfect either due to limits on the rear axle load. At maximum GVM it can only have a ball weight of 150kgs. If you have a ball weight of 350kgs the GVM drops by 200kgs to keep within the axle loadings. With regards to the Ranger you cannot just go off payload. My Wildtrak has a kerb weight of 2270kgs. Take that off the GCM of 6000kgs and you are left with 3730kgs minus the van at Max ATM of 3300kgs and you are left with 430kgs. Whilst the ball weight doesn't have to come out of that because its included in the ATM, by the time you take a full tank of fuel, a couple of passengers and the dog plus an odd accessory or two there isn't much left for anything else in the ute I can tell you. The last trip away, I had a handful of tools, a Weber baby Q a couple of folding chairs and plastic table plus my wifes carbon fibre wheelchair which is all of 9kgs and I had 70kgs spare in the car with the two of us and a full tank. My van has an ATM of 2980kgs and a ball weight on that trip of 308kgs. I was 140kgs under my ATM on the van. Like I said, in practical terms the Ranger is good for about 3100kgs Max towing. Weights are an absolute minefield, and you need to look far beyond the surface numbers to see if everything adds up. I have found that most vehicles may look good initially but have hidden flaws that limit their actual true capacity and things are not always how they first seem.

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 ".....the Ranger is good for about 3100kg max towing". Absolutely true,and you have explained very well the variables.The limiting factor is,as always,the rear axle.Anybody who thinks,or claims,that they can SAFELY tow more than 3100kg ATM as a PIG trailer is dreaming.Your personal experience with this vehicle is indesputable.Cheers

2500 RAM

M80 D wrote:

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Hi all, I thought that maybe among you all experienced caravanners that there may be someone out there that may have a van with similar weights with a vehicle suitable for towing. There is a lot of info out there but no specific answer. I see lots of vans with roof racks loaded up and vans with tool boxes, jerry cans , 2 spare wheels, +the annex +floor etc. all of which are all overloaded and driving with factory fitted mirrors. All that I asked is for advice on the correct tug for the job. It appears that you do what you do until your caught or lose out on insurance.
I didn't think it would be such a hard question. Do you all use a RAM 1500 to tow a van of this size. Please tell me your rig size and weights and the tug you use to be legal similar to mine.

My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg

Tare 2584 kg

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 Ram 1500 will not safely tow 3300kg as a PIG trailer because the rear axle is rated at only 1770kg......yes,that's right.1770kg. Ball weight at tare means absolutely nothing.....When your van is loaded,and ready to set sail,towball weight should be around 10% of the weight you are towing,so 300-330kg with your van.Since you've asked,my car is an LC79 ute,and I can run,legal on all axles,at 6800kg with an ATM 3500kg van.There is 1350kg on the front axle of the car,2300kg on the rear axle,and GTM is 3150kg.(3500kg-350kg towball).There is a twin-cab model available,with the same abilities,but be warned.... they are not for the faint hearted,or for city folk,or those who need an automatic transmission.At 6800kg GCM I get 5.4km/litre, or about 15mpg in the old language. Likewise,they will not appeal to the "Look at me" brigade,but they'll tow more,and be around long after the current crop of lightweights have died.Otherwise,you could follow Possum's suggestion of a Patrol,but I'm pretty sure that the only engine now available is the 5.6 litre V8 petrol? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 13th of January 2021 08:56:31 PM

yobarr wrote:

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M80 D wrote:

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Hi all, I thought that maybe among you all experienced caravanners that there may be someone out there that may have a van with similar weights with a vehicle suitable for towing. There is a lot of info out there but no specific answer. I see lots of vans with roof racks loaded up and vans with tool boxes, jerry cans , 2 spare wheels, +the annex +floor etc. all of which are all overloaded and driving with factory fitted mirrors. All that I asked is for advice on the correct tug for the job. It appears that you do what you do until your caught or lose out on insurance.
I didn't think it would be such a hard question. Do you all use a RAM 1500 to tow a van of this size. Please tell me your rig size and weights and the tug you use to be legal similar to mine.

My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg

Tare 2584 kg

---

 Ram 1500 will not safely tow 3300kg as a PIG trailer because the rear axle is rated at only 1770kg......yes,that's right.1770kg.Ball weight at tare means absolutely nothing.....When your van is loaded,and ready to set sail,towball weight should be around 10% of the weight you are towing,so 300-330kg with your van.Since you've asked,my car is an LC79 ute,and I can run,legal on all axles,at 6800kg with an ATM 3500kg van.There is 1350kg on the front axle of the car,2300kg on the rear axle,and GTM is 3150kg.(3500kg-350kg towball).There is a twin-cab model available,with the same abilities,but be warned.... they are not for the faint hearted,or for city folk,or those who need an automatic transmission.At 6800kg GCM I get 5.4km/litre,or about 15mpg in the old language. Likewise,they will not appeal to the "Look at me" brigade,but they'll tow more,and be around long after the current crop of lightweights have died.Otherwise,you could follow Possum's suggestion of a Patrol,but I'm pretty sure that the only engine now available is 5.6 litre petrol? Cheers

 

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 13th of January 2021 08:51:25 PM

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 I am going to have to agree with Chris for a change here the 79 series is a bit of a dated old bus but why change a good reliable with lots of grunt and you dont have to spend big bucks to get gvm upgrade . The manual gearbox is probably better for towing as you dont have those gears changing all the time.How does everyone go with 8 and 10 speed automatic gearbox 6 is bad enough.

Cheers

Because Ram are no different to a dozen other manufacturers. They can, under very limited circumstances, tow what they claim, but in a practical sense, when you do the sums, they cannot. Take my Ranger. Claimed 3500kg tow capacity. Can it do it? Yes it can provided it is driven by a starving refugee and has half a tank of fuel, but not at all practical. But because of its low GCM it's practical limit is about 3100kgs.

bgt wrote:

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Question? - why does RAM advertise the towing rating if folks here say otherwise? Are RAM Australia advertising false information or is it a trick question/quote? Just asking cos after living in the USA for 8 years and owning a RAM I can't figure why folks here say they can't tow what they say they can tow. One more comment. 100s no 1000s of Australians are towing with no idea of what their rig weight is or what the law is.

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 Hi Bruce....the reason that manufacturers are able to advertise these tow capacities is that the vehicle has passed a test that involves being able to move away from a standing position on a certain grade.Do not quote as gospel the test criteria I am about to offer,but it certainly will help you understand the process.The loaded vehicle must be able to move away from a standing start,on a 12% grade,and continue to climb as the grade increases to 20%.There also is a brake test that must be passed,also on a 12% grade.Now for the fun part.....the towing capacity that is on the compliance plate has no regard for axle ratings,which is how people are confused.With the Ram 1500,for example,the claimed towing capacity is 4500kg,but this can be achieved only when towing a DOG trailer,where there is little (15kg?) towball weight.If a 4500kg PIG trailer is connected,with the generally recognised 10% towball weight,there is well over 600kg applied to that car's rear axle.Sounds good,because the car has a great load carrying capacity,but,as always,the rear axle is the problem,as it is rated at only 1770kg....yes,1770kg. When I was in correspondence with Ram,questioning the towing capacity and weights,I was provided with a spec sheet that listed the rear axle weight,at tare,as a little over 1000kg..... but it must be noted that this is with no fuel,no driver,no tools,no payload......nothing. You do the maths! However,I am yet to receive a response from Ram after I emailed them again,asking them to please explain their claimed towing capacities,pointing out my calculations.....and that was over 12 months ago.More problems are found when we study the GCM figures. With a GCM of 7237kg (?),when towing a 4500kg trailer,there is only 2737kg left for the car...if anybody thinks there is any chance of safely towing that 4500kg as a PIG trailer,they're dreaming.Please note that Ram are by no means the only manufacturer that provides towing figures that simply are impossible to be safely reached with a PIG trailer,and this is an example only.When challenged,it is easy for manufacturers to point out that the tow figures can indeed be reached when towing a DOG trailer.Hope this helps? Cheers.

P.S Loved your last sentence...how true! Cheers

 

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 14th of January 2021 07:34:36 AM

yobarr I get the maths. And I've asked similar questions before. And yes I'm RAM biased because it was the best vehicle I've ever owned. But the point I guess I'm trying to make is this. Bill Smith, sorry to any real Bill Smiths reading this, want to go caravaning. He goes to an RV show. Finds a caravan that suits him and the missus. Told its all up weight is 3000kg. So he needs a tow vehicle. He buys a 4x4 mag and picks out one that says it has a 3500kg tow rating. Goes and buys his new XX. Hits the road oblivious to the fact that he may not be legal or safe. Caravan is 3000kg and his XX can tow 3500kg. So where's the flaw in the system? Who's policing this? Why is that if you travel from the Gold Coast to Cairns on the Bruce highway you see hundreds of happy campers in the new XX towing their 3000kg van. And not all of them have accidents or any hint of being unsafe.

So what's the solution? This subject is going to keep coming up and up and up and up and up and up ... phew. and up.

-- Edited by bgt on Thursday 14th of January 2021 10:06:14 AM