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Post Info TOPIC: Best tug under 70K


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Best tug under 70K
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My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg 

Tare 2584 kg

 

Our current tug 2009 NT Pajero is unsuitable for this van and we are looking at either the Mazda BT 80 or the Ford Ranger Raptor with a GVM upgrade on either. I need to know if one is better than the other for ease of towing. The ford is a big unit with only a 2.0 lt turbo 10 speed motor and I'm leaning more to the BT 50. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I have added redarc brakes, 12 pin plug and clearview mirrors to the pajero in readiness for the van and have just been given the weights.  



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A second hand Nissan Patrol would handle van - I was under the opinion that Pajero could handle that ATM (dependent on cabin loadings) Seek expert advice from an actual Automotive Engineer suggest Colin Young at Caravan Council Of Australia.
www.caravancouncil.com.au/contact

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M80 D wrote:

My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg 

Tare 2584 kg

 

Our current tug 2009 NT Pajero is unsuitable for this van and we are looking at either the Mazda BT 80 or the Ford Ranger Raptor with a GVM upgrade on either. I need to know if one is better than the other for ease of towing. The ford is a big unit with only a 2.0 lt turbo 10 speed motor and I'm leaning more to the BT 50. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I have added redarc brakes, 12 pin plug and clearview mirrors to the pajero in readiness for the van and have just been given the weights.  


Hi David....you no doubt are aware that the new BT50 is an Isuzu DMax in disguise? The Ford also is available with a 3.2 litre engine,is it not? Just be aware that if you are towing a 3300kg ATM,with 10% towball weight,you have GTM (weight on van wheels) of 3000kg(+/-) so,if safety is of ANY concern,your car should have weight on wheels (GVM if you like) of at least 3300kg,but to do this,you would need a GCM upgrade too....not sure if they're still available,but to cut to the chase,NEITHER of your choices will safely do the job.Happy to help if you have questions.Cheers



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yawnnoHave a really good read of the Ford Specs David. They have conflicting tow weights for this engine and currently advertise one model FMX with " uncompromised towing of 3500kg, but next one is only 2500kg.

Be prepared for an avalanche



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Possum3 wrote:

A second hand Nissan Patrol would handle van - I was under the opinion that Pajero could handle that ATM (dependent on cabin loadings) Seek expert advice from an actual Automotive Engineer suggest Colin Young at Caravan Council Of Australia.
www.caravancouncil.com.au/contact


Hi Possum...Pajero has NO chance.Period.Nissan Patrol would do the job.Cheers 

Pajero is limited to 180kg towball weight over 2500kg ATM,and can tow only 3000kg from memory? You would be a few cents short of a dollar if you tried to tow 3000kg at 6% towball weight behind a lightweight car.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 14th of January 2021 06:24:49 AM

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M80 D wrote:

My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg 

Tare 2584 kg

 

Our current tug 2009 NT Pajero is unsuitable for this van and we are looking at either the Mazda BT 80 or the Ford Ranger Raptor with a GVM upgrade on either. I need to know if one is better than the other for ease of towing. The ford is a big unit with only a 2.0 lt turbo 10 speed motor and I'm leaning more to the BT 50. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I have added redarc brakes, 12 pin plug and clearview mirrors to the pajero in readiness for the van and have just been given the weights.  





Sorry but why you order a van without knowing its weights ?

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Bill B


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The Ranger Raptor will not tow your van. The Raptor had its towing capacity reduced to 2500kgs due to the different rear suspension in that model. If you want a top of the range Ranger then the Wildtrak is your only choice for that van as that is still rated at 3500kgs. However, having said that, in practical terms a Ranger can really only tow around 3100 kgs and the BT50 slightly less primarily due to their GCM capacities. Note that even if a GCM upgrade is legal in your State, they have the potential to null and void your manufacturers warranty as they are non manufacturer approved upgrades. GCM upgrades are illegal in some states. WA being one of them.

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Greg O'Brien



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Greg 1 wrote:

The Ranger Raptor will not tow your van. The Raptor had its towing capacity reduced to 2500kgs due to the different rear suspension in that model. If you want a top of the range Ranger then the Wildtrak is your only choice for that van as that is still rated at 3500kgs. However, having said that, in practical terms a Ranger can really only tow around 3100 kgs and the BT50 slightly less primarily due to their GCM capacities. Note that even if a GCM upgrade is legal in your State, they have the potential to null and void your manufacturers warranty as they are non manufacturer approved upgrades. GCM upgrades are illegal in some states. WA being one of them.


 Great post Greg....tells it how it is.Neither of David's selections will do the job.Cheers



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Travel in style & comfort & get a Discovery D4. Get a SE as the HSE payload is swallowed up with too many gadgets.



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Thank you all. Advice taken. Looks like the Discovery D4 is my only real option

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If you do not intend to load your ranger Wildtrak to capacity, you will be legal and in spec. Your ATM less GTM = 330 kg, that is on the ball.

Payload of Ranger is 990 kg. Leaves you 650kg for the Ranger to be within GCM. 3.2 lt Ranger will do the job.

Will you always be at maximum ATM???

Jacob



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Found the answer that may help others not in the know but may like to know. Hope that this helps those interested .autoexpert.com.au/posts/complete-heavy-towing-guide-gvm-gcm-payload-towball-limits-explained

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One of the features Discovery owners love, is you lower the car, line up tow ball, raise car!

Raise & lower the car to change a wheel!



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The Discovery is not perfect either due to limits on the rear axle load. At maximum GVM it can only have a ball weight of 150kgs. If you have a ball weight of 350kgs the GVM drops by 200kgs to keep within the axle loadings. With regards to the Ranger you cannot just go off payload. My Wildtrak has a kerb weight of 2270kgs. Take that off the GCM of 6000kgs and you are left with 3730kgs minus the van at Max ATM of 3300kgs and you are left with 430kgs. Whilst the ball weight doesn't have to come out of that because its included in the ATM, by the time you take a full tank of fuel, a couple of passengers and the dog plus an odd accessory or two there isn't much left for anything else in the ute I can tell you. The last trip away, I had a handful of tools, a Weber baby Q a couple of folding chairs and plastic table plus my wifes carbon fibre wheelchair which is all of 9kgs and I had 70kgs spare in the car with the two of us and a full tank. My van has an ATM of 2980kgs and a ball weight on that trip of 308kgs. I was 140kgs under my ATM on the van. Like I said, in practical terms the Ranger is good for about 3100kgs Max towing. Weights are an absolute minefield, and you need to look far beyond the surface numbers to see if everything adds up. I have found that most vehicles may look good initially but have hidden flaws that limit their actual true capacity and things are not always how they first seem.

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Jacksa wrote:

If you do not intend to load your ranger Wildtrak to capacity, you will be legal and in spec. Your ATM less GTM = 330 kg, that is on the ball.Payload of Ranger is 990 kg. Leaves you 650kg for the Ranger to be within GCM. 3.2 lt Ranger will do the job.Will you always be at maximum ATM???

Jacob


 Hi Jacob...like so many,you have overlooked the fact that 330kg towball weight puts almost 500kg onto the car's rear axle.That axle is rated at a lowly 1850kg,so very little room for more weight....certainly nowhere near your suggested 650kg.GVM can never be reached when there is weight on the towball,and ALWAYS the rear axle of the car is the limiting factor.Boring,repetitive,indesputable.Cheers



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Greg 1 wrote:

The Discovery is not perfect either due to limits on the rear axle load. At maximum GVM it can only have a ball weight of 150kgs. If you have a ball weight of 350kgs the GVM drops by 200kgs to keep within the axle loadings. With regards to the Ranger you cannot just go off payload. My Wildtrak has a kerb weight of 2270kgs. Take that off the GCM of 6000kgs and you are left with 3730kgs minus the van at Max ATM of 3300kgs and you are left with 430kgs. Whilst the ball weight doesn't have to come out of that because its included in the ATM, by the time you take a full tank of fuel, a couple of passengers and the dog plus an odd accessory or two there isn't much left for anything else in the ute I can tell you. The last trip away, I had a handful of tools, a Weber baby Q a couple of folding chairs and plastic table plus my wifes carbon fibre wheelchair which is all of 9kgs and I had 70kgs spare in the car with the two of us and a full tank. My van has an ATM of 2980kgs and a ball weight on that trip of 308kgs. I was 140kgs under my ATM on the van. Like I said, in practical terms the Ranger is good for about 3100kgs Max towing. Weights are an absolute minefield, and you need to look far beyond the surface numbers to see if everything adds up. I have found that most vehicles may look good initially but have hidden flaws that limit their actual true capacity and things are not always how they first seem.


 ".....the Ranger is good for about 3100kg max towing". Absolutely true,and you have explained very well the variables.The limiting factor is,as always,the rear axle.Anybody who thinks,or claims,that they can SAFELY tow more than 3100kg ATM as a PIG trailer is dreaming.Your personal experience with this vehicle is indesputable.Cheers



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The new Hilux has more towing capacity than the older ones ? Just a thought.

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bgt


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2500 RAM

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Hi all, I thought that maybe among you all experienced caravanners that there may be someone out there that may have a van with similar weights with a vehicle suitable for towing. There is a lot of info out there but no specific answer. I see lots of vans with roof racks loaded up and vans with tool boxes, jerry cans , 2 spare wheels, +the annex +floor etc. all of which are all overloaded and driving with factory fitted mirrors. All that I asked is for advice on the correct tug for the job. It appears that you do what you do until your caught or lose out on insurance.
I didn't think it would be such a hard question. Do you all use a RAM 1500 to tow a van of this size. Please tell me your rig size and weights and the tug you use to be legal similar to mine.

My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg

Tare 2584 kg



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M80 D wrote:

Hi all, I thought that maybe among you all experienced caravanners that there may be someone out there that may have a van with similar weights with a vehicle suitable for towing. There is a lot of info out there but no specific answer. I see lots of vans with roof racks loaded up and vans with tool boxes, jerry cans , 2 spare wheels, +the annex +floor etc. all of which are all overloaded and driving with factory fitted mirrors. All that I asked is for advice on the correct tug for the job. It appears that you do what you do until your caught or lose out on insurance.
I didn't think it would be such a hard question. Do you all use a RAM 1500 to tow a van of this size. Please tell me your rig size and weights and the tug you use to be legal similar to mine.

My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg

Tare 2584 kg


 Ram 1500 will not safely tow 3300kg as a PIG trailer because the rear axle is rated at only 1770kg......yes,that's right.1770kg. Ball weight at tare means absolutely nothing.....When your van is loaded,and ready to set sail,towball weight should be around 10% of the weight you are towing,so 300-330kg with your van.Since you've asked,my car is an LC79 ute,and I can run,legal on all axles,at 6800kg with an ATM 3500kg van.There is 1350kg on the front axle of the car,2300kg on the rear axle,and GTM is 3150kg.(3500kg-350kg towball).There is a twin-cab model available,with the same abilities,but be warned.... they are not for the faint hearted,or for city folk,or those who need an automatic transmission.At 6800kg GCM I get 5.4km/litre, or about 15mpg in the old language. Likewise,they will not appeal to the "Look at me" brigade,but they'll tow more,and be around long after the current crop of lightweights have died.Otherwise,you could follow Possum's suggestion of a Patrol,but I'm pretty sure that the only engine now available is the 5.6 litre V8 petrol? Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 13th of January 2021 08:56:31 PM

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M80 D, My Evernew is also plated 3300Kg ATM - My tug is a Nissan Patrol (manual) with mild 30mm lift with extra leaf in springs and air bag upgrade by Pedders. Normally have around 300+ kg on ball. When touring I do utilise WDH, which I usually disconnect when reversing around corner.My usual touring weight is normally weigh-bridged at around 2660+ Kg. Rarely do I travel with Two 90 litre water filled, unless in desert country, usually leave home with only front tank filled.


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yobarr wrote:
M80 D wrote:

Hi all, I thought that maybe among you all experienced caravanners that there may be someone out there that may have a van with similar weights with a vehicle suitable for towing. There is a lot of info out there but no specific answer. I see lots of vans with roof racks loaded up and vans with tool boxes, jerry cans , 2 spare wheels, +the annex +floor etc. all of which are all overloaded and driving with factory fitted mirrors. All that I asked is for advice on the correct tug for the job. It appears that you do what you do until your caught or lose out on insurance.
I didn't think it would be such a hard question. Do you all use a RAM 1500 to tow a van of this size. Please tell me your rig size and weights and the tug you use to be legal similar to mine.

My new van has a ball tare weight of 160 kg

GTM 2970 kg

ATM 3300 kg

Tare 2584 kg


 Ram 1500 will not safely tow 3300kg as a PIG trailer because the rear axle is rated at only 1770kg......yes,that's right.1770kg.Ball weight at tare means absolutely nothing.....When your van is loaded,and ready to set sail,towball weight should be around 10% of the weight you are towing,so 300-330kg with your van.Since you've asked,my car is an LC79 ute,and I can run,legal on all axles,at 6800kg with an ATM 3500kg van.There is 1350kg on the front axle of the car,2300kg on the rear axle,and GTM is 3150kg.(3500kg-350kg towball).There is a twin-cab model available,with the same abilities,but be warned.... they are not for the faint hearted,or for city folk,or those who need an automatic transmission.At 6800kg GCM I get 5.4km/litre,or about 15mpg in the old language. Likewise,they will not appeal to the "Look at me" brigade,but they'll tow more,and be around long after the current crop of lightweights have died.Otherwise,you could follow Possum's suggestion of a Patrol,but I'm pretty sure that the only engine now available is 5.6 litre petrol? Cheers

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 13th of January 2021 08:51:25 PM


 I am going to have to agree with Chris for a change here the 79 series is a bit of a dated old bus but why change a good reliable with lots of grunt and you dont have to spend big bucks to get gvm upgrade . The manual gearbox is probably better for towing as you dont have those gears changing all the time.How does everyone go with 8 and 10 speed automatic gearbox 6 is bad enough.

Cheers



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bgt


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Question? - why does RAM advertise the towing rating if folks here say otherwise? Are RAM Australia advertising false information or is it a trick question/quote? Just asking cos after living in the USA for 8 years and owning a RAM I can't figure why folks here say they can't tow what they say they can tow. One more comment. 100s no 1000s of Australians are towing with no idea of what their rig weight is or what the law is.

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Because Ram are no different to a dozen other manufacturers. They can, under very limited circumstances, tow what they claim, but in a practical sense, when you do the sums, they cannot. Take my Ranger. Claimed 3500kg tow capacity. Can it do it? Yes it can provided it is driven by a starving refugee and has half a tank of fuel, but not at all practical. But because of its low GCM it's practical limit is about 3100kgs.

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I saw a RAM parked in a nearby street, walked past the rear crossing the road, it caught my attention because the tow bar tongue was 40mm. It just looked wrong.



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bgt wrote:

Question? - why does RAM advertise the towing rating if folks here say otherwise? Are RAM Australia advertising false information or is it a trick question/quote? Just asking cos after living in the USA for 8 years and owning a RAM I can't figure why folks here say they can't tow what they say they can tow. One more comment. 100s no 1000s of Australians are towing with no idea of what their rig weight is or what the law is.


 Hi Bruce....the reason that manufacturers are able to advertise these tow capacities is that the vehicle has passed a test that involves being able to move away from a standing position on a certain grade.Do not quote as gospel the test criteria I am about to offer,but it certainly will help you understand the process.The loaded vehicle must be able to move away from a standing start,on a 12% grade,and continue to climb as the grade increases to 20%.There also is a brake test that must be passed,also on a 12% grade.Now for the fun part.....the towing capacity that is on the compliance plate has no regard for axle ratings,which is how people are confused.With the Ram 1500,for example,the claimed towing capacity is 4500kg,but this can be achieved only when towing a DOG trailer,where there is little (15kg?) towball weight.If a 4500kg PIG trailer is connected,with the generally recognised 10% towball weight,there is well over 600kg applied to that car's rear axle.Sounds good,because the car has a great load carrying capacity,but,as always,the rear axle is the problem,as it is rated at only 1770kg....yes,1770kg. When I was in correspondence with Ram,questioning the towing capacity and weights,I was provided with a spec sheet that listed the rear axle weight,at tare,as a little over 1000kg..... but it must be noted that this is with no fuel,no driver,no tools,no payload......nothing. You do the maths! However,I am yet to receive a response from Ram after I emailed them again,asking them to please explain their claimed towing capacities,pointing out my calculations.....and that was over 12 months ago.More problems are found when we study the GCM figures. With a GCM of 7237kg (?),when towing a 4500kg trailer,there is only 2737kg left for the car...if anybody thinks there is any chance of safely towing that 4500kg as a PIG trailer,they're dreaming.Please note that Ram are by no means the only manufacturer that provides towing figures that simply are impossible to be safely reached with a PIG trailer,and this is an example only.When challenged,it is easy for manufacturers to point out that the tow figures can indeed be reached when towing a DOG trailer.Hope this helps? Cheers.

P.S Loved your last sentence...how true! Cheers

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 14th of January 2021 07:34:36 AM

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Possum3 wrote:

M80 D, My Evernew is also plated 3300Kg ATM - My tug is a Nissan Patrol (manual) with mild 30mm lift with extra leaf in springs and air bag upgrade by Pedders. Normally have around 300+ kg on ball. When touring I do utilise WDH, which I usually disconnect when reversing around corner.My usual touring weight is normally weigh-bridged at around 2660+ Kg. Rarely do I travel with Two 90 litre water filled, unless in desert country, usually leave home with only front tank filled.


 Hi Possum.I'm sure that you,as an erudite individual,have chosen well,but I wonder if you could please tell us what model Patrol you have? Cheers



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bgt


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yobarr I get the maths. And I've asked similar questions before. And yes I'm RAM biased because it was the best vehicle I've ever owned. But the point I guess I'm trying to make is this. Bill Smith, sorry to any real Bill Smiths reading this, want to go caravaning. He goes to an RV show. Finds a caravan that suits him and the missus. Told its all up weight is 3000kg. So he needs a tow vehicle. He buys a 4x4 mag and picks out one that says it has a 3500kg tow rating. Goes and buys his new XX. Hits the road oblivious to the fact that he may not be legal or safe. Caravan is 3000kg and his XX can tow 3500kg. So where's the flaw in the system? Who's policing this? Why is that if you travel from the Gold Coast to Cairns on the Bruce highway you see hundreds of happy campers in the new XX towing their 3000kg van. And not all of them have accidents or any hint of being unsafe.

So what's the solution? This subject is going to keep coming up and up and up and up and up and up ... phew. and up.







-- Edited by bgt on Thursday 14th of January 2021 10:06:14 AM

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bgt wrote:

Question? - why does RAM advertise the towing rating if folks here say otherwise? Are RAM Australia advertising false information or is it a trick question/quote? Just asking cos after living in the USA for 8 years and owning a RAM I can't figure why folks here say they can't tow what they say they can tow. One more comment. 100s no 1000s of Australians are towing with no idea of what their rig weight is or what the law is.


 Ram is not quoting false information because Ram is using the Americain SAE J2807 towing calculator for Australia, J2807 is the method in which light trucks are tested to establish the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) and the TWR (Trailer Weight Rating), however J2807 makes no mention of axle weights, nor towball weights in my reading of J2807.

The simplistic calculation in our language is the TWR=GCM-TVTW (Total weight of the Tow Vehicle) which includes Full Tanks, Driver, Passenger and additional equipment  weight distribution hitch if required this is our Kerb Weight. Note this does not include accessories like bull bars etc and load.

Using that calculation my Ranger would have a TWR of 3400kg  ( GCM 5500-TWTV 2100=TWR 3400kg ) actual TWR is 2990kg. In the advertising for my Ranger it had a 3000kg Towing capicity, its not until you read your owners manual that you discover axle, towball limits and additional equipment required ie. towing over 1800kg the use of a WDH is required.

 



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bgt wrote:

yobarr I get the maths. And I've asked similar questions before. And yes I'm RAM biased because it was the best vehicle I've ever owned. But the point I guess I'm trying to make is this. Bill Smith, sorry to any real Bill Smiths reading this, want to go caravaning. He goes to an RV show. Finds a caravan that suits him and the missus. Told its all up weight is 3000kg. So he needs a tow vehicle. He buys a 4x4 mag and picks out one that says it has a 3500kg tow rating. Goes and buys his new XX. Hits the road oblivious to the fact that he may not be legal or safe. Caravan is 3000kg and his XX can tow 3500kg. So where's the flaw in the system? Who's policing this? Why is that if you travel from the Gold Coast to Cairns on the Bruce highway you see hundreds of happy campers in the new XX towing their 3000kg van. And not all of them have accidents or any hint of being unsafe.

So what's the solution? This subject is going to keep coming up and up and up and up and up and up ... phew. and up.
-- Edited by bgt on Thursday 14th of January 2021 10:06:14 AM



 Bruce,what you write about "Bill Smith" is absolutely true,but this situation always will arise until a Govt body has the intestinal fortitude to introduce the same laws for lightweight vehicles as applies to vehicles with a GVM of 4500kg or more.Such vehicles cannot tow a PIG trailer that weighs  than the vehicle that is towing it.This means that,for example,an earthmoving company with a tipper truck that tares at 10 ton will have to throw a couple of metres of dirt into the truck when they want to use a PIG trailer to transport their 10 ton digger,or roller or whatever,to the next job.Simple physics at work......making the truck heavier than the PIG trailer minimises the chances of the "Tail wagging the dog".Simple physics at work.Unfortunately, with many caravanners,there is absolutely no understanding of weights,and,in some cases there appears a stubborn refusal to learn.Then we get the "She'll be right" brigade,but watch them search for someone to blame when it all ends in tears.NOW....I have to strongly disagree with your comment "...not all of them have accidents,or any hint of being unsafe". This is more a result of good luck than it is of good management,as once yaw sets in with a trailer that is heavier than the car that is towing it,the party's over. If safety is of any concern,the car must always be around 10% heavier than the van it is towing,with some experts in this field suggesting 20% heavier.My car is around 16% heavier than the fully loaded van,but if I leave 100 litres out of the water tanks,the car becomes 20% heavier than the van.Cheers



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