Tow vehicles

Brenda and Alan · Guru

RE: Tow vehicles

montie · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr I give up on you. Can you not just say you were wrong and a WDH does in fact reduce the load on the tow bar. Instead you go on with a lot of waffle and virtually concede.
Alan

Alan,

I repeat, The fitment of a WDH does not change the ball weight.

A WDH distributes the weight from the tug rear axle to the front axle and the van wheels. It doesn't change the download weight at the coupling.

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr I give up on you. Can you not just say you were wrong and a WDH does in fact reduce the load on the tow bar. Instead you go on with a lot of waffle and virtually concede.
Alan

Alan,I struggle to understand how anyone can continue to argue against the indesputable.Perhaps you are being mischievous,but little of what you say makes any sense.Here again is a small portion of the evidence provided in our response to your illogical posting of May 6,2020.Could you perhaps take a little time (long time?) to actually read and absorb the information contained within? Good luck.Cheers

P.S Please note that this simply is part of a list of the "....top 8 Towing myths busted".

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 11th of February 2021 09:58:46 PM

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 11th of February 2021 10:14:11 PM

Gundog · Guru

There is far too much written about Towball weights, towball weight is a static weight measured at the trailer/caravan coupling.

To get an accurate towball weight requires a more than an eighty dollar set of towball scales, if you get you trailer/van level on a level surface then the weight is as good as you can expect, even using a weighbridge has a 20kg + or - variation. If you want an accurate you will need to find a specialist with proper calibrated devices.

Connecting the tow vehicle and van together, If the towball weight is within the tow vehicles manufactures reccomendations and the towbar compliance plate, then the towball weight becomes irrevelent as it is part of the Gross Combined Mass, therefore nothing changes even when using a weight distribution hitch as it is nolonger a measurable weight.

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
I sorry Yobarr I used the term ATM instead of the correct Laden mass.However the load applied to the tow vehicle has been reduced by the amount of weight transferred to the van axles. This is correct.The transferred weight increases the van's GTM and reduces the weight on the car's wheels.However,that weight is now DISTRIBUTED differently on the car,with front axle weight increasing and rear axle weight being reduced.
The only connection of van to tow vehicle is via the towbar and a check of tow vehicle axle weights before and after clearly shows that this load is reduced when the WDH is tensioned by the same amount as the increase in van axle load.
You are absolutely correct that the only connection of the van to the car is via the towbar,but you seem to fail to understand that that connection transfers weight to the car's rear axle.When a WDH is tensioned,weight is removed from that REAR AXLE......towball weight is NOT affected by a WDH.
Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted and do the arithmetic.
Because I have conducted my own tests,I have no need to "Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted",and neither do I need to "....do the arithmetic".My tests simply confirmed to me that my theories,and calculations,were indeed correct.
In that post of the 6th march I included a set of figures from Haymen Reece which shows exactly that but you refuse to accept this.
Did you not notice,on your set of figures,that towball weight is listed as zero? This is convenient for your arguement,and for others who do not understand weights,but is an absolute nonsense.
Alan

Alan,since you are completely lost here,in an attempt to offer you help in understanding how a WDH works,I have spent much time analysing your many,varied and incorrect posts on the topic.Finally I think I now have found where you are lost? You seem not to understand that,when applied to the car's rear axle,towball weight is multiplied by around 145%,dependent on TBO and car's wheelbase etc.Thus,a 350kg towball,for example,will put over 500kg onto that car's rear axle.When a WDH is used, not only is TBO immediately increased,but straight away even MORE weight (perhaps 40kg?) is applied to the car's rear axle, worsening an already bad situation.NOW,when the over rated universal cure-all WDH is tensioned,weight is removed from the car's REAR AXLE, and distributed to the front wheels of the car,and also to the van's axle group.Towball weight DOES NOT change ......ever....but the van's GTM has increased, as has the van's total weight.Not only has the weight on the car's wheels decreased,it also has been distributed differently.As a last resort,may I respectfully ask you to study and learn from the many responses you received to the post you made on May 6 2020. For your own sake,I hope this helps you.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 12th of February 2021 11:43:31 AM

bomurra · Veteran Member

yobarr wrote:
bomurra wrote:
Radar wrote:
Bobdown wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!
Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.
Hi Bobdown.
I do know for sure in the Nissan product range the heavier the tow bar weight less you can carry in the tow vehicle and I do remember reading on this forum that Ford or Mazda have similar strickers on the doors of their products. That can change your pig trailer towing ability.
This is no longer the case with the current model Patrol, Series 5 has on limitations on vehicle GVM for towball mass. It is simply Tow capacity - 3500kg, GCM 7000Kg, Towball 350kg, Max weight shown in each case.
Hi Robert...Whilst you are absolutely right that the Series 5 does not have the limitations of the earlier models,are you aware that the maximum GCM you can safely reach,on paper,with a PIG trailer is 6650kg? In reality,it is almost impossible to reach GCM of much more than 6500kg,and that is only achievable with selective loading.However,with a wheelbase of 3076mm,the Y62 is a much more stable tow vehicle than is an LC200. However,like the LC200,the Y62 is hampered by the rear axle's carrying capacity of 2030kg.And NO,a WDH will not solve that problem.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 10th of February 2021 03:24:56 AM

Hello Yobar,

I would be interest to see your calculations supporting your statements made above.

Cheers Bob

yobarr · Guru

bomurra wrote:
yobarr wrote:
bomurra wrote:
Radar wrote:
Bobdown wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!
Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.
Hi Bobdown.
I do know for sure in the Nissan product range the heavier the tow bar weight less you can carry in the tow vehicle and I do remember reading on this forum that Ford or Mazda have similar strickers on the doors of their products. That can change your pig trailer towing ability.
This is no longer the case with the current model Patrol, Series 5 has on limitations on vehicle GVM for towball mass. It is simply Tow capacity - 3500kg, GCM 7000Kg, Towball 350kg, Max weight shown in each case.
Hi Robert...Whilst you are absolutely right that the Series 5 does not have the limitations of the earlier models,are you aware that the maximum GCM you can safely reach,on paper,with a PIG trailer is 6650kg? In reality,it is almost impossible to reach GCM of much more than 6500kg,and that is only achievable with selective loading.However,with a wheelbase of 3076mm,the Y62 is a much more stable tow vehicle than is an LC200. However,like the LC200,the Y62 is hampered by the rear axle's carrying capacity of 2030kg.And NO,a WDH will not solve that problem.Cheers
Hello Yobar,
I would be interest to see your calculations supporting your statements made above.
Cheers Bob

Hi Bob.....happy to help,if you could tell me exactly what you would like to know.There are many calculations involved in providing my figures, and a detailed explanation would take me a long time to provide. Cheers

Brenda and Alan · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
I sorry Yobarr I used the term ATM instead of the correct Laden mass.However the load applied to the tow vehicle has been reduced by the amount of weight transferred to the van axles. This is correct.The transferred weight increases the van's GTM and reduces the weight on the car's wheels.However,that weight is now DISTRIBUTED differently on the car,with front axle weight increasing and rear axle weight being reduced.
The only connection of van to tow vehicle is via the towbar and a check of tow vehicle axle weights before and after clearly shows that this load is reduced when the WDH is tensioned by the same amount as the increase in van axle load.
You are absolutely correct that the only connection of the van to the car is via the towbar,but you seem to fail to understand that that connection transfers weight to the car's rear axle.When a WDH is tensioned,weight is removed from that REAR AXLE......towball weight is NOT affected by a WDH.
Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted and do the arithmetic.
Because I have conducted my own tests,I have no need to "Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted",and neither do I need to "....do the arithmetic".My tests simply confirmed to me that my theories,and calculations,were indeed correct.
In that post of the 6th march I included a set of figures from Haymen Reece which shows exactly that but you refuse to accept this.
Did you not notice,on your set of figures,that towball weight is listed as zero? This is convenient for your arguement,and for others who do not understand weights,but is an absolute nonsense.
Alan
Alan,since you are completely lost here,in an attempt to offer you help in understanding how a WDH works,I have spent much time analysing your many,varied and incorrect posts on the topic.Finally I think I now have found where you are lost? You seem not to understand that,when applied to the car's rear axle,towball weight is multiplied by around 145%,dependent on TBO and car's wheelbase etc.Thus,a 350kg towball,for example,will put over 500kg onto that car's rear axle.When a WDH is used, not only is TBO immediately increased,but straight away even MORE weight (perhaps 40kg?) is applied to the car's rear axle, worsening an already bad situation.NOW,when the over rated universal cure-all WDH is tensioned,weight is removed from the car's REAR AXLE, and distributed to the front wheels of the car,and also to the van's axle group.Towball weight DOES NOT change ......ever....but the van's GTM has increased, as has the van's total weight.Not only has the weight on the car's wheels decreased,it also has been distributed differently.As a last resort,may I respectfully ask you to study and learn from the many responses you received to the post you made on May 6 2020. For your own sake,I hope this helps you.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 12th of February 2021 11:43:31 AM

Did you not notice that there is no scale under the tow bar. Haymen Reece would have been better to put in a dash instead.

Please take careful note that the weight on the cars axles after WDH tensioned is 1850 KG an increase of only 160Kg over the initial weight of the car alone and vans axles are now 60 Kg heavier. Total weight 220 Kg. This is the total original tow ball weight. Since the increase in car weight is only 160Kg and it only come from the load on the towbar, then the load on the tow bar is reduced to 160 Kg when the WDH was tensioned. Also note that the vans laden mass has indeed not changed at all. Load on axles plus 160 Kg on tow bar is the same as when the van was weighed alone.

Alan

montie · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
I sorry Yobarr I used the term ATM instead of the correct Laden mass.However the load applied to the tow vehicle has been reduced by the amount of weight transferred to the van axles. This is correct.The transferred weight increases the van's GTM and reduces the weight on the car's wheels.However,that weight is now DISTRIBUTED differently on the car,with front axle weight increasing and rear axle weight being reduced.
The only connection of van to tow vehicle is via the towbar and a check of tow vehicle axle weights before and after clearly shows that this load is reduced when the WDH is tensioned by the same amount as the increase in van axle load.
You are absolutely correct that the only connection of the van to the car is via the towbar,but you seem to fail to understand that that connection transfers weight to the car's rear axle.When a WDH is tensioned,weight is removed from that REAR AXLE......towball weight is NOT affected by a WDH.
Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted and do the arithmetic.
Because I have conducted my own tests,I have no need to "Find some figures for weighings before and after a WDH is fitted",and neither do I need to "....do the arithmetic".My tests simply confirmed to me that my theories,and calculations,were indeed correct.
In that post of the 6th march I included a set of figures from Haymen Reece which shows exactly that but you refuse to accept this.
Did you not notice,on your set of figures,that towball weight is listed as zero? This is convenient for your arguement,and for others who do not understand weights,but is an absolute nonsense.
Alan
Alan,since you are completely lost here,in an attempt to offer you help in understanding how a WDH works,I have spent much time analysing your many,varied and incorrect posts on the topic.Finally I think I now have found where you are lost? You seem not to understand that,when applied to the car's rear axle,towball weight is multiplied by around 145%,dependent on TBO and car's wheelbase etc.Thus,a 350kg towball,for example,will put over 500kg onto that car's rear axle.When a WDH is used, not only is TBO immediately increased,but straight away even MORE weight (perhaps 40kg?) is applied to the car's rear axle, worsening an already bad situation.NOW,when the over rated universal cure-all WDH is tensioned,weight is removed from the car's REAR AXLE, and distributed to the front wheels of the car,and also to the van's axle group.Towball weight DOES NOT change ......ever....but the van's GTM has increased, as has the van's total weight.Not only has the weight on the car's wheels decreased,it also has been distributed differently.As a last resort,may I respectfully ask you to study and learn from the many responses you received to the post you made on May 6 2020. For your own sake,I hope this helps you.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 12th of February 2021 11:43:31 AM
Did you not notice that there is no scale under the tow bar. Haymen Reece would have been better to put in a dash instead.
Please take careful note that the weight on the cars axles after WDH tensioned is 1850 KG an increase of only 160Kg over the initial weight of the car alone and vans axles are now 60 Kg heavier. Total weight 220 Kg. This is the total original tow ball weight. Since the increase in car weight is only 160Kg and it only come from the load on the towbar, then the load on the tow bar is reduced to 160 Kg when the WDH was tensioned. Also note that the vans laden mass has indeed not changed at all. Load on axles plus 160 Kg on tow bar is the same as when the van was weighed alone.
Alan

Put simply the ball weight is applied to the towbar which impacts the rear axle weight. Weight is then distributed from the rear axle to the front axle and van axles. Ball weight does not change.

yobarr · Guru

Alan,just in case you missed the story,I have again highlighted the relevant facts for you.Please READ and ABSORB this information.Your mistaken beliefs,and stubborn refusal to accept the indesputable,does not bother me too much,but I am concerned that the rubbish you post may mislead newbys,or others simply looking for help with their setups,to their detriment.Montie and I,and a couple of others on here,have much experience with weights,and always we try to help others.Your contributions to this topic are of little use.Cheers

A WDH does NOT change towball weight....

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 16th of February 2021 08:18:34 PM

bomurra · Veteran Member

yobarr wrote:
bomurra wrote:
yobarr wrote:
bomurra wrote:
Radar wrote:
Bobdown wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
If you can do some homework and work out the ATM and GCM for these tugs and what is legal that they can actually tow, then we can work on vans !!
Just a random list off of Google, so no favourites. Maybe it might need to be downloaded and put on a spreadsheet.
Hi Bobdown.
I do know for sure in the Nissan product range the heavier the tow bar weight less you can carry in the tow vehicle and I do remember reading on this forum that Ford or Mazda have similar strickers on the doors of their products. That can change your pig trailer towing ability.
This is no longer the case with the current model Patrol, Series 5 has on limitations on vehicle GVM for towball mass. It is simply Tow capacity - 3500kg, GCM 7000Kg, Towball 350kg, Max weight shown in each case.
Hi Robert...Whilst you are absolutely right that the Series 5 does not have the limitations of the earlier models,are you aware that the maximum GCM you can safely reach,on paper,with a PIG trailer is 6650kg? In reality,it is almost impossible to reach GCM of much more than 6500kg,and that is only achievable with selective loading.However,with a wheelbase of 3076mm,the Y62 is a much more stable tow vehicle than is an LC200. However,like the LC200,the Y62 is hampered by the rear axle's carrying capacity of 2030kg.And NO,a WDH will not solve that problem.Cheers
Hello Yobar,
I would be interest to see your calculations supporting your statements made above.
Cheers Bob
Hi Bob.....happy to help,if you could tell me exactly what you would like to know.There are many calculations involved in providing my figures, and a detailed explanation would take me a long time to provide. Cheers

Hello Yobar,

I am interest to learn how you arrived at the conclusions -

A). the maximum GCM you can safely reach, on paper, with a PIG trailer is 6650kg

B) In reality, it is almost impossible to reach GCM of much more than 6500kg.

I an aware that there is a GVM reduction for series 1-4 Patrols, where drawbar weight exceeds 300kg, but the maximum deduction is only 130 kg, for a drawbar weight of 350 kg. I have attached an extract from the series 4 brochure to explain this point further.

I an interested the hear your explanation as to where the other 220 kg and 370 kg, respectively, went.

Mostl Patrol owners remove the third row of seats, to provide an even better load carrying capacity, or reduce the rear axle loading, and thus the GVM, so basically you can achieve a tow ball mass up to 325 kg without any weight needing to be subtracted from your GVM, and only a minimal amount, at max tow ball load of 350 kg.

Be interested to see your figures and find out where I am wrong.

Regards,

Bob.

yobarr · Guru

Bob..(Bomurra) With your car,it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever reach 7000kg GCM...ever.If you were to tow a DOG trailer,you might get close,missing out only by the towball weight...maybe 15kg? With a PIG trailer (caravan),the 7000kg figure is an absolute impossibility,as you immediately lose 350kg off your caravan's 3500kg ATM with 10% towball weight...you cannot count it twice.So now you are back to 6650kg,BUT when you apply a 350kg towball weight to your car,you immediately take around 150kg OFF the car's front axle,and transfer that weight to the car's rear axle..This weight can NEVER be returned to the car's front axle by using a WDH without exceeding the van's 3500kg ATM because the WDH also transfers weight to the van's axle group,thus exceeding the van's ATM..Remember,a WDH NEVER changes towball weight.Therefore,that 150kg comes off your GCM total, and you are now back to 6500kg.This is one of the main things about weights that many members do not understand, but is not negotiable.A WDH CANNOT ever be used to solve this "problem" because not only does it return weight to the car's front axle,it also transfers weight to the van's axle group.Immediately you are over your ATM.Game,set,match......not negotiable.Cheers

P.S These figures are CONSERVATIVE because I cannot be bothered doing the exact calculations.Good news,though,as with a 350kg towball weight,an LC200 transfers a lot more weight to the car's rear axle.The Y62 is a superior towing vehicle because of its MUCH better wheelbase. Cheers

P.S These figures are for later series 5 models,and DO NOT include the the loss in GVM suffered by earlier Y62 models.

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 16th of February 2021 06:39:12 PM

bomurra · Veteran Member

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the explanation, thankfully I do not have a 350 Kg TBM and load both the car and the van conservatively, so I am confident that we are legal in long distance touring mode.

I am also aware of the "lever effect" that TBM has, so also cater for this.

I will do some weighing to ensure that we are legal in our heaviest config.

Regards,

Bob.

yobarr · Guru

bomurra wrote:
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the explanation, thankfully I do not have a 350 Kg TBM and load both the car and the van conservatively, so I am confident that we are legal in long distance touring mode.
I am also aware of the "lever effect" that TBM has, so also cater for this.
I will do some weighing to ensure that we are legal in our heaviest config.
Regards,Bob.

Hi Bob...thanks for this acknowledgement of my explanation.For your information,rear axle carrying capacity is 2030kg,while the front is good for 1650kg.Great to see that you are acting responsibly with your weights.Good luck,and happy (safe!) travels.Cheers

bomurra · Veteran Member

yobarr wrote:
bomurra wrote:
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the explanation, thankfully I do not have a 350 Kg TBM and load both the car and the van conservatively, so I am confident that we are legal in long distance touring mode.
I am also aware of the "lever effect" that TBM has, so also cater for this.
I will do some weighing to ensure that we are legal in our heaviest config.
Regards,Bob.
Hi Bob...thanks for this acknowledgement of my explanation.For your information,rear axle carrying capacity is 2030kg,while the front is good for 1650kg.Great to see that you are acting responsibly with your weights.Good luck,and happy (safe!) travels.Cheers

Hi Chris,

Yeah, I am across all of the axle weight etc. for both the van and the car. You have to watch these, as this is what the scale operators check at the road side.

See you on the road sometime.

Regards,

Bob.

BTW, I came across a spreadsheet that does all of the calc's on towing weights quite quickly, if you or anyone else is interested. Copy attached.

yobarr · Guru

bomurra wrote:
yobarr wrote:
bomurra wrote:
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the explanation, thankfully I do not have a 350 Kg TBM and load both the car and the van conservatively, so I am confident that we are legal in long distance touring mode.
I am also aware of the "lever effect" that TBM has, so also cater for this.
I will do some weighing to ensure that we are legal in our heaviest config.
Regards,Bob.
Hi Bob...thanks for this acknowledgement of my explanation.For your information,rear axle carrying capacity is 2030kg,while the front is good for 1650kg.Great to see that you are acting responsibly with your weights.Good luck,and happy (safe!) travels.Cheers
Hi Chris,
Yeah, I am across all of the axle weight etc. for both the van and the car. You have to watch these, as this is what the scale operators check at the road side.
See you on the road sometime.
Regards,
Bob.
BTW, I came across a spreadsheet that does all of the calc's on towing weights quite quickly, if you or anyone else is interested. Copy attached.

Hi Bob....thanks for your kind words.As you probably have realised,I already am on top of all the stuff contained in your attachment.Cheers

Brenda and Alan · Guru

montie wrote:
Put simply the ball weight is applied to the towbar which impacts the rear axle weight. Weight is then distributed from the rear axle to the front axle and van axles. Ball weight does not change.

Montie this is precisely my point because as the figures show the weight transfered to the van axles equals the reduction in tow bar weight. Ball weight has indeed been reduced.

The original tow ball weight is a force acting downwards on the towbar but is opposed by the force of the tensioned spring of the WDH which acts upwards on the tow bar, why would it not reduce the tow bar load along with the other shifts in load that it brings about.

Alaan

yobarr · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
Put simply the ball weight is applied to the towbar which impacts the rear axle weight. Weight is then distributed from the rear axle to the front axle and van axles. Ball weight does not change.
Montie this is precisely my point because as the figures show the weight transfered to the van axles equals the reduction in tow bar weight. Ball weight has indeed been reduced.The original tow ball weight is a force acting downwards on the towbar but is opposed by the force of the tensioned spring of the WDH which acts upwards on the tow bar, why would it not reduce the tow bar load along with the other shifts in load that it brings about. Alaan

Hi Alan....When first you started presenting your incorrect "theories" on the effects of a WDH,I quickly decided that you were,in fact,serious,so I went about trying to illustrate to you,your mistakes.This seemed to achieve little,and when you again made posts containing faulty reasoning,I concluded that you were simply having a bit of harmless fun,at our expense.However,your renewed round of rubbish has me again thinking that you are indeed serious. Because I am not flash on "links" and other computer stuff,I cannot download this video,but perhaps you could access it on your computer,or somebody could be kind enough to put it up here? The video is by a chap named John Cadogan,who holds an Engineering Degree,and it primarily is about an "uninformed Dick" (his words) who claims that a WDH changes towball weight.John explains why this is not true,and goes on to explain why using a WDH is like using a "...Band-Aid on a much bigger problem". Suffice to say that there is little hope for those who,after watching the video, STILL do not understand that a WDH does NOT change ball weight.All useful information is contained in the first 19 minutes of the video,with the last 8-9 minutes discussing a completely different topic.After all the help given to you by Montie and I,amongst others,confirmed by the information in this video,I sincerely hope that you now have learned that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT . If not,there is little chance of any of us being able to assist you further.Good luck with your learning.Cheers

montie · Guru

Can't help myself here but if a WDH can make weight on the tow bar magically disappear maybe Jenny Craig might be interested in the concept!

Gundog · Guru

All this he says she says BS about towball weight after a caravan is connected and a WDH engaged. FFS if you have established all your weights pre and post hook up are within the limits, then the towball weight and every other weight is not a measurable.

Just one snippet of useless information, if you think a static weight like towball weight and a stationary vehicle weights never changes then you have it wrong because movement will, its the pitch and roll of vehicles travelling over never perfect roads that moves weight around your combination.

yobarr · Guru

Gundog wrote:
All this he says she says BS about towball weight after a caravan is connected and a WDH engaged. FFS if you have established all your weights pre and post hook up are within the limits, then the towball weight and every other weight is not a measurable.
Just one snippet of useless information, if you think a static weight like towball weight and a stationary vehicle weights never changes then you have it wrong because movement will, its the pitch and roll of vehicles travelling over never perfect roads that moves weight around your combination.

Hi Graham...I am somewhat confused about the "..he says,she says BS after a caravan is comnected and a WDH engaged" as there appears to be no dispute that weights pre and post hook up are changed.What one member fails to understand is that a WDH removes weight from the car's REAR AXLE...towball weight DOES NOT change.Your assertions about "how pitch and roll over never perfect roads moves weight around" are indeed indesputable,but these weight movements are not able to be measured in any useful way.All we can do is show how a WDH affects a stationary vehicle,but trying to illustrate that to at least one member certainly is a challenge.A WDH DOES NOT change towball weight.Hope this helps? Cheers

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Yobarr I think I have had enough of your condescending attitude.

I have shown you categorically that a WDH does in fact reduce tow bar load, but you still refuse to accept the plain facts.

Goodbye, Alan

montie · Guru

I think this discussion has now turned into a pxssing contest with little further value.
It is a known fact, as confirmed by HR, that a WDH does not reduce ball download but who cares....if your weights are within ratings before hookup that's all that matters. You can't measure the ball weight of a coupled van and a WDH cannot create or eliminate actual weight. It can only distribute it.

-- Edited by montie on Thursday 18th of February 2021 11:07:42 PM