Covid 19 app.

Whenarewethere · Guru

RE: Covid 19 app.

Gundog · Guru

Greystone the only problem is at the time he was tested there was no app.

2trout · Senior Member

Gundog, This is getting boring. You are out of step with the vast majority of Australians. Over 3 million have had the commonsense to download the app. How about we move on to another subject?

Greystone · Senior Member

Gundog, true, but does he have the app now? And what about yourself and any other member of the family?

Cupie · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
JayDee wrote:
The powers to be know what they are taking about by approving the app for all of us.
Such touching naivety :)
The word on the street is the Apple app. has been reverse compiled (I imagine the Android one has too) and has a number of significant flaws not the least of it is its ability to operate, correctly, as a background process 'cause Apple don't like people messing with location services if GPS is not active and Bluetooth is in that basket.
Now, Bluetooth: a more frustrating frigging protocol there never was! I can hardly stop laughing: 1.5m they say, 1.5m ha, ha, ha! Have they found a new way to stop radio waves propagating? Have they found a new way to stop radio waves reflecting? Each of these wonderful discoveries would be worth a Nobel Prize in its own right.
Download and run it if you like but it's a waste of taxpayer's money.
https://www.innovationaus.com/atlassian-and-the-covidsafe-team/

I had a quick look at some techo stuff on Bluetooth and it occurred to me that as the effective range was dependant on the transmission power (amongst other things) surely by reducing the power then the range could be reduced.

Would it be possible for an App to achieve this and thereby identifying others with the app within an approximate say 1.5m?

BTW, I too have severe reservations about the competency of our Govt. in the area of Technology.

-- Edited by Cupie on Friday 1st of May 2020 09:23:45 AM

Greystone · Senior Member

I also have severe doubts about this governments competency in any area, let alone IT stuff. But if this app can help me stop spreading the virus to others (if I am a carrier) or warn me that I may have been exposed, then it's well worth it. I would hate the thought of being the cause or having contributed to the demise of others if it were preventable by using this app. After all, when this pandemic is over ( hopefully), then I will get rid of the app.

Gundog · Guru

2trout wrote:
Gundog, This is getting boring. You are out of step with the vast majority of Australians. Over 3 million have had the commonsense to download the app. How about we move on to another subject?

since when has 3 million been a majority of 25 million, what is the point of an app that is next to useless where with less than 1000 known infected people, whats more if you have been tested positive you should be in isolation.

The app is a political feel good con, do you go walking down the street looking at your phone all the time ? when we go shopping it would be highly unlikely for to connect us to be in contact within bluetooth range for a matter of seconds, your bluetooth connection takes more than a few seconds to connect.

Need I remind you about all the smart people and many from IT who were running around scaremongering about the Y2K bug.

Gundog · Guru

Greystone wrote:
Gundog, true, but does he have the app now? And what about yourself and any other member of the family?

I would expect so as he lives in Sydney, No because I dont have a phone, I doubt my other 2 boys would bother, as one is an anti big brother is watching, the other lives in the bush and has limited contact with people daily.

Dick0 · Guru

2trout wrote:
Gundog, This is getting boring. You are out of step with the vast majority of Australians. Over 3 million have had the commonsense to download the app. How about we move on to another subject?

We hear how many times the App has been downloaded.

But, we don't hear how many times the App has been uninstalled?

confuse disbelief

Mike Harding · Guru

Cupie wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Now, Bluetooth: a more frustrating frigging protocol there never was! I can hardly stop laughing: 1.5m they say, 1.5m ha, ha, ha! Have they found a new way to stop radio waves propagating? Have they found a new way to stop radio waves reflecting? Each of these wonderful discoveries would be worth a Nobel Prize in its own right.
I had a quick look at some techo stuff on Bluetooth and it occurred to me that as the effective range was dependant on the transmission power (amongst other things) surely by reducing the power then the range could be reduced.
Would it be possible for an App to achieve this and thereby identifying others with the app within an approximate say 1.5m?

Hi Cupie

Unfortunately no.

I believe mobile handsets can alter the Bluetooth (BT) power but I'm not certain. It doesn't actually matter because they'll transmit at a known power in any event. The concept behind the app is that it uses Received Signal Strength Indication (RSSI) to guess distance and this is where a major failing of the way we have trained electronics/software engineers for the past 20 or so years is apparent - streaming them into hardware or software design and those trained in one know bugger all about the other. I grew up in both, thank God.

It seems to me this app was proposed and designed by software people who clearly fail to understand radio propagation. They have taken the approach that the RSSI signal is, if not linear, at least reasonably proportional - it isn't, not even close. It's purpose is simply to let the software know if it's worth trying to do a decode of the current incoming signal.

Received signal strength is affected by **all sorts of things**. The RSSI, at the same distance, from a phone in a woman's handbag which is adjacent to her metal make-up box will be totally different to that same phone in my shirt pocket. Bluetooth runs at around 2.5GHz, this frequency is readily absorbed by just about anything so two people sorting through opposite sides of the freezer in Safeway may never make BT contact.

A good friend owns a business which provides facilities for tracking people. About five years ago he looked at BT beacons for this purpose and I gave a little free, friendly advice from the sidelines. He (we) concluded it was nowhere near accurate enough for his purpose and we were looking at significantly less accuracy than 1.5m

Frankly I could write a paper on this (a few already have) and if the originators of this app had consulted properly it probably never would have been written.

Please understand; it's not a total failure and it will register some valid connections but it will miss one hell of a lot and it will make an awful lot of false ones and no one will ever know which are which. As I said previously; download it if you will but don't for a moment believe it's giving you any serious level of security.

MH

Cupie · Guru

Thanks for that considered response Mike ... cheers

Greystone · Senior Member

Well, Scomo wants at least 40% uptake before lifting the restrictions. So, boys and girls do your bit. Australians have seven days to download coronavirus app ahead of key meeting on scrapping restrictions, PM says http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-01/national-cabinet-coronavirus-restrictions-could-ease-next-week/12205304

msg · Guru

What I want to know is why is Scomo so adamant about sending the kids back to school and saying that lack of classroom contact (especially years 1) will mentally damage them. From our own community of travellers, there are plenty of families out there homeschooling. Is this damaging the kids? The ones I have met seem OK. What about all those who attend School of the Air in the outback. Are they mentally damaged? Is it just about locking heads with the unions or some other agenda? So many unexplained contradictions in this whole business makes me very sus.

-- Edited by msg on Friday 1st of May 2020 04:52:08 PM

-- Edited by msg on Friday 1st of May 2020 04:54:08 PM

Greystone · Senior Member

I think there is a difference between choosing to home school and prepare for that vs being told your kid can't go to school and you'll have to deal with it.

mustangdude · Member

This very app was first used in South Korea and also Singapore.

In the South Korean instance it was made mandatory for the 250 million people to download and was crucial in getting the virus under control.

The app only traces for 21 days, then data is destroyed.

It doesn't tell govt "WHERE" you are, just that you've been near someone who was tested positive and you need to be tested.

If you don't like the high battery usage turn off bluetooth when your at home.

I predict as the country opens up only people with the app will be allowed to take advantage of the pubs etc, I hope that's how it will work anyway.

dorian · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Another link for you:
https://decrypt.co/26773/uproar-in-france-over-mass-surveillance-coronavirus-app

Why does France's software need to bypass Apple's security whereas Australia's does not?

Gundog · Guru

Mustangdude said. "I predict as the country opens up only people with the app will be allowed to take advantage of the pubs etc, I hope that's how it will work anyway" What a silly statement, not everyone has a phone, or if they do it maybe a basic one just to make or receive phone calls. I don't own a mobile phone, so what your solution? The government to provide one and pay the monthly access fee, I think not.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Battery option for Bluetooth.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Keep your distance!

26931298-8198127-image-a-3_1586300519340~2.jpg

Mike Harding · Guru

dorian wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Another link for you:
https://decrypt.co/26773/uproar-in-france-over-mass-surveillance-coronavirus-app
Why does France's software need to bypass Apple's security whereas Australia's does not?

Because Australia's app does not work properly on the Apple platform - it won't run in the background, which is exactly what you want it to do 98% of the time.

Greystone · Senior Member

Another reason not to go with Apple

Bryan · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
dorian wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Another link for you:
https://decrypt.co/26773/uproar-in-france-over-mass-surveillance-coronavirus-app
Why does France's software need to bypass Apple's security whereas Australia's does not?
Because Australia's app does not work properly on the Apple platform - it won't run in the background, which is exactly what you want it to do 98% of the time.

I'm not anywhere near a technology whizz. I can hardly work my iphone but having downloaded the App since day one I have not noticed any difference in battery usage or other problems. Neither has my wife. I know its working as I received an acknowledgement from whoever the powers might be.

Bryan · Guru

Gundog wrote:
Mustangdude said. "I predict as the country opens up only people with the app will be allowed to take advantage of the pubs etc, I hope that's how it will work anyway" What a silly statement, not everyone has a phone, or if they do it maybe a basic one just to make or receive phone calls. I don't own a mobile phone, so what your solution? The government to provide one and pay the monthly access fee, I think not.

If you haven't got a phone don't worry about it.

2trout · Senior Member

4 million now signed up after only a few days. Well done Australia.

Mike Harding · Guru

Greystone wrote:
Another reason not to go with Apple

Fair dues for Apple: I have no doubt at all this matter will be detailed in the Apple OS API documents, more likely the issue is the people who wrote the app failed to understand the documents or concept of background processing or didn't do their research properly - it seems the French developers were a little more professional.

I'll mention that I'm not an "Apple person" but there is a good argument this feature of the OS makes it more resistant to attack than Android.

There are lots of reasons not to buy Apple product but this isn't one of them.

dorian · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Fair dues for Apple: I have no doubt at all this matter will be detailed in the Apple OS API documents, more likely the issue is the people who wrote the app failed to understand the documents or concept of background processing or didn't do their research properly - it seems the French developers were a little more professional.

Perhaps the Australian (?) developers decided to produce something that would accommodate Apple's anticipated resistance. The bottom line is that Australia has rolled out a working tool whereas the French have not (is this French arrogance?). ISTM that Aussie developers are the ones to be lauded.

Mike Harding · Guru

dorian wrote:
The bottom line is that Australia has rolled out a working tool

Except they haven't.

Producing a product which works a bit and on some platforms but not on others or maybe it does if the others are in the right mode is not considered a "working tool". If people had paid money for it they'd all be demanding a refund.

The Australian app does not work anywhere correctly on an Apple iPhone - I'm not sure why you seem determined to argue this point? Google it if you don't believe me.

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

It's not the Government that I have concerns about regarding privacy (they've already mentioned a glitch) - it's the company that owns the storage.

I've refused to buy anything from Amazon & after the 4Corners report, I trust them even less!

My local MP (George C) told me the Govt is only renting storage from Amazon & the data will be erased but Does the Australian Government have jurisdiction over these huge Yank companies & what they do?

dogbox · Guru

Gundog wrote:

Greystone wrote:
Gundog, true, but does he have the app now? And what about yourself and any other member of the family?
I would expect so as he lives in Sydney, No because I dont have a phone, I doubt my other 2 boys would bother, as one is an anti big brother is watching, the other lives in the bush and has limited contact with people daily.

it could be a genetic thing

people who object to the app on privacy issues probably put more info out on this form an things like face book than what will be given up on this new app.
i have blue tooth connected in the tug. do i turn it off every time i get out ? no .
have i turned my gps off ? no .
is my phone connected to gps thru blue tooth ? yes
are they tracking me ? no idea
am i concerned ?
if THEY wanted to find me there are other ways to track where i've been .

-- Edited by dogbox on Sunday 3rd of May 2020 10:10:08 AM

Gundog · Guru

dogbox wrote:
Gundog wrote:

Greystone wrote:
Gundog, true, but does he have the app now? And what about yourself and any other member of the family?
I would expect so as he lives in Sydney, No because I dont have a phone, I doubt my other 2 boys would bother, as one is an anti big brother is watching, the other lives in the bush and has limited contact with people daily.

it could be a genetic thing

people who object to the app on privacy issues probably put more info out on this form an things like face book than what will be given up on this new app.
i have blue tooth connected in the tug. do i turn it off every time i get out ? no .
have i turned my gps off ? no .
is my phone connected to gps thru blue tooth ? yes
are they tracking me ? no idea
am i concerned ?
if THEY wanted to find me there are other ways to track where i've been .

-- Edited by dogbox on Sunday 3rd of May 2020 10:10:08 AM

I dont object to the app based on privacy issues, as the government has ample opportunity to track me by my metadata, my issue is revelence, where I am my daily contact is with known people all be it with social distancing, if we do go to town its to do some shopping, then the longest and closest contact is with the checkout operator.

Its pointless to promote an app where its success is dependant on people who have tested positve and are on the data base not remaining in isolation, the promotion of the app is a panacea to make those who are scared feel safe, reality is you are highly unlikely to come in contact with anyone with covid 19 and that is dependant that they have been tested and carry a phone with the app active.

The only reason I dont carry a phone is, I dont need one there are other devices that cover our communication neeeds.