Newbie advice - what car to buy

Greg 1 · Guru

RE: Newbie advice - what car to buy

Greg 1 · Guru

Sorry figure that I got was 4850kgs. Other thing to note is that the Territory is speed limited to 80kph when towing heavy loads. This might not worry some but is a real restriction for others when travelling in remote areas.

yobarr · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
Sorry figure that I got was 4850kgs. Other thing to note is that the Territory is speed limited to 80kph when towing heavy loads. This might not worry some but is a real restriction for others when travelling in remote areas.

Oops....double post!

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 3rd of September 2019 03:44:29 PM

yobarr · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Greg 1 wrote:
Sorry figure that I got was 4850kgs. Other thing to note is that the Territory is speed limited to 80kph when towing heavy loads. This might not worry some but is a real restriction for others when travelling in remote areas.

Yeah Greg,you are right.The 4850kg applies to the 2 wheel drive (rear wheel,if you must) version,with 5250kg for the AWD. Rightly or wrongly,I simply assumed we were discussing an AWD model? The 80kph speed limit may be a problem,but it is most unlikely that the constabulary would be aware of that,and an insurance company would have little chance of proving that you were travelling above that limit at the time of any accident,unless the speedo was stuck on a higher speed.If the accident occurred at a high enough speed to jam the speedo,it is unlikely that the driver would be around to make a claim anyway! And what do we classify as a heavy load? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 3rd of September 2019 03:45:08 PM

Greg 1 · Guru

I think that the 80kph limit is more to do with the mechanical aspects such as drivetrain longevity than stability. The figure I got was quoted as the AWD GCM but it wasn't an official Ford web site so could be inaccurate, although the other specs were on the money.

Joda · Senior Member

Been towing 1900kg. Poptop fot 65000klms. so far with rearwheel drive territory (diesel) mostly sitting on 95kph., always tow in performance mode auto, trans won,t select 6th. Gear, revs around 1900, fuel around 13 -14 l/100, treat it as an overgrown station wagon not a 4b, had no problems so far, touch wood! Jodz

kesa32 · Senior Member

+ 1 for the territory, we tow a large tandem Bailey ( upgraded to 1800kg ATM ) , tows it really well and get the same fuel economy as Joda @ roughly the same speed , maybe a bit more , and yes in performance mode every time
Have just had a tune and egr delete so looking forward to see how it tows with the increase in torque

On another note , l don't see why you'd have to limit to 80kph as the vehicle is very stable , more importantly is getting everything loaded correctly and driving to conditions..... seen some shockers getting around now and then , accidents in the making :(

Frogman · Member

As yobarr has indicated, once hooked up, your vans actual ball weight comes off the tow vehicle load capacity as it is considered to be carried by the tow vehicle.

__________________
Gregory O'Brien

How do you calculate the tow ball weight? Is it simply keeping the van off the scale, and putting only the jockey wheel onto the scale? I told you I'm clueless, although I am a registered public weighbridge operator.

yobarr · Guru

Frogman wrote:
As yobarr has indicated, once hooked up, your vans actual ball weight comes off the tow vehicle load capacity as it is considered to be carried by the tow vehicle.

__________________
Gregory O'Brien

How do you calculate the tow ball weight? Is it simply keeping the van off the scale, and putting only the jockey wheel onto the scale? I told you I'm clueless, although I am a registered public weighbridge operator.

Drive your setup over the weighbridge so that only the van wheels are on the weigh bridge,but so that the jockey wheel,when lowered,also will be on the weighbridge.Take the weight on the van wheels,then lower the jockey wheel and again record the weight.Subtract the first weight from the second to get towball weight.FORGET towball weight scales,as they are ridiculously inaccurate.To be really accurate,the van towbar should be at exactly the same height for both measurements.Cheers.

Greg 1 · Guru

You can get them weighed with a load cell which are very accurate. Gary Thorn here in Perth, goes by the name of Mobile Caravan Weighing Service I think it is, has a very fancy load cell to do that job plus scales similar to the heavy transport inspectors so he can weigh your van on site. Very good service. Had him weigh our rig for a full load check.

Greg 1 · Guru

For the weight of the two vans in the aforementioned posts, the Territory is more than adequate. I do not believe that the speed limitation has anything to do with stability. I think you will find it has more to do with possible drive train issues. Also I am not sure at what weight of towed load that that recommended speed cuts in. Ford do a few things like that. I have been a long term Ford fan and currently own both an XR6 Turbo and a Ranger. On the Falcons, certain models that I have owned have had similar limitations placed on their towing capacity.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Some of the smaller vehicles transmissions wouldnt be up to durability. As much as I like Subarus . The transfer case is the weak link . It was the early versions of Territory that had ball joint issues. Unfortunately a bigger, heavier vehicle is required to tow any sort of weight. After a while youll feel uncomfortable in a smaller car .

The Belmont Bear · Guru

Hi Frogman, prior to my current vehicle I had a Pajero Sport which IMHO was a great car to drive and would easily pull the type of load that you are looking at (without speed restrictions). I only upsized to our current vehicle because the Sport although capable was operating too close to it's limit pulling a 2.7T van. They are probably a bit bigger than the Territory especially in height but for me that is an advantage of driving an SUV around town. I see on Carsales that you can pick up a 2016 model between $25000 and $35000 depending on the KMs and the level of trim. My biggest criticism of the Sport would be that the center consule was too wide for a large person which cut down on the knee room, the fuel tank was a bit small for towing, the rear tail lights were something that I really needed to get used to. An added bonus would be that with the 7 year manufacturers warranty a 2016 model would still have 3 or 4 years left on it.

Cheers

BB

kesa32 · Senior Member

Hi Greg1 , it shouldn't be a driveline issue ( just thinking out loud here ) the motor is in discovery 3's towing more weight , the 6r80 g/ box same as the rangers etc and the diff is a M86 which is used in much more powerful turbo's etc

Maybe it's something to do with the independent suspension ?

Joda · Senior Member

Had a good read of my diesel territorys handbook, my G.C.M. is 4080kgs. (Weighbridge) the graph showing load versus speed tells me I should drive at 95kph, which I do anyway, the book is not very specific on why You should do this but reading transmission section I would say that its to keep trans. temps. at the proper level, territory has a warning symbol on the dash if trans. temps are exceeded, by selecting a lower gear & slowing down a bit brings temps. back to normal. After all that I have towed at 100kph. on hot days & engine or trans. temps have never been a problem. Sometimes I think a little " mechanical sympathy" for the vehicle when towing goes a long way, don,t shut down engine after long hot run straight away, let it idle to even out the latent heat for a few minutes, a few senior members will probably understand what I,m trying to put across here. Sometimes its not the cars fault! Joda

Frogman · Member

Thanks for your feedback. 1.7m from my socks to my dandruff, size is not an issue for me. But because I will only be towing a few weeks a year, I'm looking for the smallest possible car to use around town too. And the Pajero is a bit big.

Frogman · Member

One more question I seem to have so many so I apologise if I'm outstaying my welcome.

I've looked at a 16ft Baileys in very good condition with a shower/toilet combo for "only" $18,500. It's also a very light van for what it offers.

Does anybody have any input on this van? There don't seem to be many of the smaller sized ones for sale. And there will only ever be 2 of us travelling so it seems to tick all the boxes

-- Edited by Frogman on Friday 6th of September 2019 12:43:56 PM

kesa32 · Senior Member

Make sure it has had gas and electrical compliances done to au standards , also check signs of dampness , especially in corners and near wheel wells , ensuite etc
Check all the windows as they're double glazed and some batchs a long time ago had the wrong adhesive used and consequently had issues with delamination ( most were replaced ) , also check they're not cracked etc , especially the front ones , from travelling damage

Check the VIN carefully and do an online search

Lastly check EVERYTHING works !! Appliances for vans aren't cheap ,,,,,

Depending who's done what with it ( l met a older couple on our last trip and they had once had a Bailey, took it up the Gibb or something like that and wondered why things like the fridge come adrift and developed a couple of gaps in the bodywork,,,,, they sneakily put it back together, traded it on dusk for a jayco , which later got flooded out , probably rattled to bits too lol , then got the insurance and bought another different one , vowing to keep off rough roads ! )

So it's buyer beware these days ., l like ours but don't tackle bad roads with it , as most vans don't tolerate them ...good luck !

Frogman · Member

Looked at iyt this morning - the body looks very tired, so did not buy it. Looking at a Jayco Expanda later

Frogman · Member

I answered somewhere then lost the post. I'm looking at an Isuzu MUX RWD on Weds night. Hope it does the trick for me. We decided to buy the tow first because then we can hire to try before we buy.

Thanks to everybody for your valuable if not confusing input.

Regards

Edie and Mark

Frogman · Member

Firstly, let me wish you and all of your friends, family and furbabies all the best to get through these devastating fires safely.

Thank you for everybody's help and opinions.

After all the ins and outs I finally bought a 2016 TOUAREG with 53k km on the clock. Took into account Torque, driving comfort, longer wheelbase with shorter distance between the rear axle and tow ball. I've learned so much asking scores of questions and reading/watching reviews of all makes of vehicle.

Paid $42,500 They would not budge on the price but agreed to install, at no extra cost to me, a 3 ton tow bar (aftermarket) as well as electric brakes. I think the price was reasonable. I did not take the extra warranty, although I have the weekend to change my mind.

Now I can hire a caravan, try it out on shorter trips and hopefully one day Edie and I with our White Swiss Shepherd, Harmony, will join all of you on the road.

Safe and happy travelling.

Edie and Mark

yobarr · Guru

Frogman wrote:
Firstly, let me wish you and all of your friends, family and furbabies all the best to get through these devastating fires safely.

Thank you for everybody's help and opinions.

After all the ins and outs I finally bought a 2016 TOUAREG with 53k km on the clock. Took into account Torque, driving comfort, longer wheelbase with shorter distance between the rear axle and tow ball. I've learned so much asking scores of questions and reading/watching reviews of all makes of vehicle.

Paid $42,500 They would not budge on the price but agreed to install, at no extra cost to me, a 3 ton tow bar (aftermarket) as well as electric brakes. I think the price was reasonable. I did not take the extra warranty, although I have the weekend to change my mind.

Now I can hire a caravan, try it out on shorter trips and hopefully one day Edie and I with our White Swiss Shepherd, Harmony, will join all of you on the road.

Safe and happy travelling.

Edie and Mark

Well done Mark,and great to see that you have come back here to inform us of your purchase.Thankyou.I am sure that the Touareg will serve you well,and its GVM of 2840kg means that you can SAFELY tow a van with an ATM up to around 2850kg.This gives you a bit of weight to play with if your chosen van is heavier than you anticipate,which happens regularly! If you have a 2850kg ATM van,and the generally accepted 10% towball weight,you will have GTM (weight on van wheels) of 2565kg behind a car that can legally have up to 2840kg on its wheels.Fully loaded,your car would be around 10% heavier than the loaded van,and very safe! Well done.Cheers.

kesa32 · Senior Member

+ 1 , Touaregs are good vehicles, and like all tow vehicles must be serviced more often, so so long as you do that you should have a long healthy life out of it mechanically..... if you just do regular services it'll shorten its life span and reliability
Personally l do oil change intervals around 7ks when towing and 10k when not

Good luck !

Frogman · Member

Thanks for the advice - for the cost of an oil change, it's cheap in the long term. Also a very good friend of mine is a German Engine builder (esp BMW's) and he'll be looking after it when I'm not on the road.

Greg 1 · Guru

Good choice. Will give you some flexibility choosing a van. Might see you on the road somewhere

Frogman · Member

Looking forward to it

Cheers

MapleHunter25 · Veteran Member

Hi All

Apologies if I am hijacking this thread, but my question is related as I'm also trying to decide on a complete new rig and struggling with the weights question. Maths is not my strong point.

I have pretty much decided on a DMax (cost, reliability and utility) and an 18-19 footer van setup for free camping, so with plenty of solar, battery (lithium), and plenty of water. From my research so far it is looking hard to find something that would come in under 2700kg ish loaded (including full water). GCM, ATM, GTM and ball weight shouldn't be an issue.

My issue is likely getting the 'balance' right with the ute outweighing the van as I will likely be lightly loaded with nominally just me (fat) and my dog (skinny) plus fuel. As I'm not interested in much in the way of accessories (eg. bull bar) I would guesstimate the basic loaded weight at no more than 2200kg plus ball weight. That doesn't sound safe to me.

I might be able to load the ute with something, but finding 3-400kg of 'stuff' seems a stretch.

Considering the above what would you advise as to the actual safe limit for me to tow?

-- Edited by MapleHunter25 on Wednesday 4th of December 2019 04:41:14 PM

yobarr · Guru

MapleHunter25 wrote:
Hi All

Apologies if I am hijacking this thread, but my question is related as I'm also trying to decide on a complete new rig and struggling with the weights question. Maths is not my strong point.

I have pretty much decided on a DMax (cost, reliability and utility) and an 18-19 footer van setup for free camping, so with plenty of solar, battery (lithium), and plenty of water. From my research so far it is looking hard to find something that would come in under 2700kg ish loaded (including full water). GCM, ATM, GTM and ball weight shouldn't be an issue.

My issue is likely getting the 'balance' right with the ute outweighing the van as I will likely be lightly loaded with nominally just me (fat) and my dog (skinny) plus fuel. As I'm not interested in much in the way of accessories (eg. bull bar) I would guesstimate the basic loaded weight at no more than 2200kg plus ball weight. That doesn't sound safe to me.

I might be able to load the ute with something, but finding 3-400kg of 'stuff' seems a stretch.

Considering the above what would you advise as to the actual safe limit for me to tow?

-- Edited by MapleHunter25 on Wednesday 4th of December 2019 04:41:14 PM

If you look further down this page you will find a thread "Truck or ute".Early on in that thread I gave a detailed explanation on what a BT50 can SAFELY tow. This will show you that you are good for around 3000kg ATM.I am busy for a couple of hours,but I will post exact weights later for your advice.With 3000kg ATM you have about 2700kg GTM (weight on van wheels) so if your ute is loaded to capacity it still is more than 10% heavier than the van,and safe.Details later.Cheers

MapleHunter25 · Veteran Member

Ah yes forgot about allowing for the ball weight transfer. Sheesh.

So 270kg added to ball would give me about 2500kg for the ute while the van would be at 2430kg GTM? Much nicer looking figures!

yobarr · Guru

MapleHunter25 wrote:
Ah yes forgot about allowing for the ball weight transfer. Sheesh.

So 270kg added to ball would give me about 2500kg for the ute while the van would be at 2430kg GTM? Much nicer looking figures!

That 2700kg I mentioned was GTM (weight on wheels) for a 3000kg ATM van after towball weight (300kg) has been transferred to the car.I will post details later today or early tomorrow but for a 2700kg ATM van your figures are indeed correct,with 270kg transferred to the car.What you do have to be VERY aware of is the rear axle weight on your car,as 270kg towball weight adds over 380kg to your rear axle weight and takes about 110kg off the front axle of the car.Then you've got fuel,tools,weight of the actual towbar structure etc etc to consider.Cheers.

OK.DMax is a good car,but rear axle is rated at only 1870kg,with 1350kg on front.Although tow capacity is stated as 3500kg that is not possible unless the trailer is a DOG trailer if safety is of any concern.Realistically,you can safely tow a van up to 3000kg ATM.If your car was loaded to capacity, this would give you a 2950kg on car's wheels and 2700kg GTM (weight on van wheels) for apparent all up weight of 5650kg. However,this is not possible because a 300kg towball weight takes around 110kg OFF the front axle,bringing the maximum weight of the car down to 2840kg.. and that is with absolutely perfect axle loadings.Add that to your GTM of 2700kg and we have a total of 5540kg.Although not perfect,at least your car is heavier than your van by 5%. For safety,the car should be at least 10% heavier than the van,while I believe that Collyn Rivers,a recognised expert in this field,suggests the car should be 20% heavier than the van? Realistically,your car can safely tow up to around 3000kg,but watch that rear axle! With a 2500kg van,your figures are 2250kg GTM behind a car that can be loaded to 2840kg.The car is thus more than 20% heavier than the van, and very safe.Good luck with your search.Cheers.

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 5th of December 2019 05:30:40 AM