GVM and gcm upgrade dmax

montie · Guru

GVM and gcm upgrade dmax

Iva Biggen · Senior Member

Montie with due respect you do not understand.

The vehicle with its Total GVM of 3600 kg includes the tow ball transfer weight then...If you have a caravan trailer or whatever that is connected to that vehicle and its axle combination weight is 3500 Not The ATM of the caravan but the axle weight loaded then the GCM of the vehicle is 7100 kg.

I do understand your assumption but to assume that all trailers or caravans have an ATM of 3500 kg is not correct.

I could phone at least three caravan manufacturers and have them build and approve a caravan with an ATM of 3850 kg and this figure is stated here only to keep the story simple.

This same caravan could then be connected to a vehicle with a legal GCM of 7100 and a GVM of 3600 and be compliant.

Lets just simplify this.

You and I are driving along the highway in this very configuration and we are asked to pull onto a weighbridge to be weighed.

We are asked to pull the tow vehicle onto the weigh bridge and we weigh 3600 kg we then pull the caravan or trailer etc onto the weighbridge and because the axle group of the caravan is in this case 3500 kg then we weigh a total of 7100kg which is the approved GCM or Gross Combination Mass.

As I said in my post immediately above, in the case of caravans the multitude of caravan manufacturers fix a lesser weigh onto their vans to make them easier to sell. Provided the chassis brakes wheels tyres etc comply then a caravan can be any approved weight within component specifications.

To assume that any vehicle modification revolves around what some manufacturers put on a compliance plate might suit some arguments but in actual fact the drawbar weight is already on the prime mover or tow vehicle when hooked up and the towed weight, that is the weight that is behind the tow vehicle is what the tow vehicle is permitted to tow.

If we were on that weigh bridge and we were asked to unhook then we would be light by our example tow bar weigh of 350 kg on the prime mover or tow vehicle but we would be plus 350 kg if the draw bar were placed on the weighbridge plate with the axle group.

We would still be legal because the drawbar weight is actually a part of the vehicle GVM which is not exceeded in my sample and the towed weight would be 3500 kg as indicated by the scale when the trailer axle group is weighed.

Draw bar weight can not be included twice in any calculation.

I had the pleasure to view the authorities weighing caravans on the Bruce Highway at the invitation of a policeman friend in 2018 and they do not make you disconnect the unit but relied on the GVM and then the total weight being the GCM that is Gross Combination Mass. On that day they made one guy park up as he had an older ute with a boat on top, a collapsible trailer a fridge and an outboard motor in the back as well as other light gear and there was no way that he could comply as he was towing a heavier van that what the vehicle was rated for. Others were either warned or asked and permitted to move items to comply.

I personally dealt with two engineers with modifications of a caravan and the 200 series and I was told exactly the same fact as I have stated above by both of them. GCM is just that, it is the total mass weight of the entire combination. The drawbar weight is carried by the towing vehicle when the combination is connected.

Any genuine vehicle upgrade is an advantage to anyone towing or even operating a vehicle with a full contingent of passengers, fuel, luggage and equipment.

The main advantage with any GVM upgrade on any vehicle is to be able to include the draw bar weight in the vehicle GVM and still have some margin up an operators sleeve for some extra gear in the prime mover or tow vehicle. 99% of people towing vans need a bit more capacity in the vehicle.

You asked me for the explanation and I gave it to you. You never see a weighbridge ask a truck to unhook to be weighed as they work off GVM and GCM.

yobarr · Guru

Ivan....can I respectfully suggest that you give up now before you look even sillier?The car is rated to tow 3500kg ATM.If you have a 350kg towball weight and GTM (weight on van axles) of 3500kg,the ATM is 3850kg.Tomorrow I will AGAIN try to explain in a way that you can understand.Cheers

P.S Your sons 200 has ZERO chance of getting within a country mile of 7300kg.

travelyounger · Guru

Thanks Iva At least someone out there knows about these upgrades and the different state rules and being told about the zero chance of loading your vehicle and van to its legal weight to be safe and legal on the roads.It has cost 4500 to get this upgrade not counting 2000 when I bought the car to carry the extra weight so Im glad you know about whats involved .I originally started this post ( go back in history to approx 22 to 25 ) and my original question was has anyone had a gvm and gcm upgrade and have a look at some of the responses I get from these highly intellectual people cheers safe travels

montie · Guru

You can lead a horse to water.......

My final attempt.

The measured weight of your attached combination must not legally exceed the lesser of the following:

1) The tug manufacturer or after market upgrade rating if there is one.

2) Tug GVM plus Van GTM (GTM=ATM-Ball weight).

That is the law. In the OP's situation option 2 applies.

You cannot exceed another rating to achieve your GCM....it is the lesser of.

Just because Lovell's give you a 7100kg GCM rating doesn't mean you can legally load to that figure if you exceed your tug GVM in doing so.

I don't think I can explain it any simpler than that. Some posters simply do not have a proper understanding of GCM rating, in fact a recent poster has a problem with difference between ATM and GTM.

I hope this helps.

-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 07:12:26 AM

-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 07:14:42 AM

yobarr · Guru

travelyounger wrote:
Thanks Iva At least someone out there knows about these upgrades and the different state rules and being told about the zero chance of loading your vehicle and van to its legal weight to be safe and legal on the roads.It has cost 4500 to get this upgrade not counting 2000 when I bought the car to carry the extra weight so Im glad you know about whats involved .I originally started this post ( go back in history to approx 22 to 25 ) and my original question was has anyone had a gvm and gcm upgrade and have a look at some of the responses I get from these highly intellectual people cheers safe travels

Unfortunately Ivan is so wrong that it is embarassing,which doesnt bother me too much.What does concern me is that his posts serve only to give false hope to those people,such as you,who have little understanding of weights.When Ivan first started replying to my posts I thought that he was simply being mischievous,providing a little humour to the thread.Sadly,I now know that he actually believes what he writes.By telling us that it is all good to run 3500kg GTM on a van,with 350kg towball weight,he is advocating that it is acceptable to tow a van with ATM of 3850kg with a car that has a towing capacity of 3500kg.Immediately you are unsafe,10% overloaded,and uninsured.Spare me!And his analogy of trucks is garbage.A semi-trailer always has the turntable (hitchpoint) over the rear axles,or slightly forward.This results in a small amount of weight being transferred TO the front axle.The hitch point for a caravan (Pig trailer) is well behind the rear axle ,and takes a lot of weight FROM the front axle of the car.Spare me! Ivan proudly tells us that his son has an LC200 with a 7300kg GCM rating,and submits a photo of the compliance plate,but little does he know that there is NO chance of getting anywhere near that GCM....zip,zilch,nada,nil. The upgrade costs mega-dollars,and gains a miserable 50kg in the rear axle....yes,you read correctly.......50kg.That axle is upgraded to 2000kg (from factory 1950kg) and the front axle now is rated at 1800kg....absolutely useless,as there is no way known youll get 1800kg onto the front axle when there is 350kg on the towball.None.My car has a much longer wheelbase than an LC200 but still I cannot get more than 1350kg onto that axle with van attached.Simple fact is that Ivans son,even with attention to loading, is unlikely to be able to get much more than 6650kg GCM.....and that is being very optimistic,using 1500kg front axle (impossible?) 2000kg rear axle and 3150kg GTM.(Weight on van wheels).You no doubt have gained hope from Ivans post,but unfortunately what he writes is plain wrong.As I wrote earlier,I initially thought Ivan was being mischievious but now I can simply say he is 100% wrong. In my many years running 62.5 ton B-Doubles around the country I had many heated discussions with authorities about my weights......I never once failed to show that I was legal.Of course,they always had tge last word,with tickets for exceeding driving hours etc,but at least I was proven right with my weights.Twice you have written that you will contact me to discuss this topic on the phone,but so far I have not received a phone number to call?? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 08:04:49 AM

travelyounger · Guru

This is my currant rig

2017 spacecab aluminium trade canopy 3.5 tinny on roof total weight 3350 fully loaded before hooked to van gvm 3600

20 foot galaxy tandem tare 2200 gvm 2800 towball 250

car 3350

tball 250

= 3600

van 2800 fully loaded water 250 kg food ect

3600 +2800=6400

gcm of 6400 allowed 700 kg extra to 7100 gcm but not with this van but if upgrade to van with higher gvm to acheive this is this possible cheers

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
You can lead a horse to water.......
My final attempt.
The measured weight of your attached combination must not legally exceed the lesser of the following:
1) The tug manufacturer or after market upgrade rating if there is one.
2) Tug GVM plus Van GTM (GTM=ATM-Ball weight).
That is the law. In the OP's situation option 2 applies.
You cannot exceed another rating to achieve your GCM....it is the lesser of.
Just because Lovell's give you a 7100kg GCM rating doesn't mean you can legally load to that figure if you exceed your tug GVM in doing so.
I don't think I can explain it any simpler than that. Some posters simply do not have a proper understanding of GCM rating, in fact a recent poster has a problem with difference between ATM and GTM.
I hope this helps.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 07:12:26 AM

Monty,you are 100% correct.It is just plain wrong that people who only think they know weights,but actually know little,come on here and provide information(?) to those who know nothing of weights,and are looking for advice.Trying to help is one thing.....providing totally incorrect information is another.Ignorance is bliss! Cheers.

yobarr · Guru

travelyounger wrote:
This is my currant rig
2017 spacecab aluminium trade canopy 3.5 tinny on roof total weight 3350 fully loaded before hooked to van gvm 3600
20 foot galaxy tandem tare 2200 gvm 2800 towball 250
car 3350
tball 250
= 3600
van 2800 fully loaded water 250 kg food ect
3600 +2800=6400
gcm of 6400 allowed 700 kg extra to 7100 gcm but not with this van but if upgrade to van with higher gvm to acheive this is this possible cheers

After all that has been written,it seems that you still do not understand? If your fully loaded van weighs 2800kg,and you have 250kg towball weight (9%) you have GTM (weight on van wheels) of only 2550kg.Your GCM is thus 6150kg.(3600kg GVM car plus 2550kg GTM).And you are very likely to be over your 2150kg rear axle capacity.My offer to speak to you,and help you understand,still is there as it seems you are becoming even more confused? Cheers

montie · Guru

travelyounger wrote:
This is my currant rig
2017 spacecab aluminium trade canopy 3.5 tinny on roof total weight 3350 fully loaded before hooked to van gvm 3600
20 foot galaxy tandem tare 2200 gvm 2800 towball 250

car 3350
tball 250
= 3600

van 2800 fully loaded water 250 kg food ect

3600 +2800=6400
gcm of 6400 allowed 700 kg extra to 7100 gcm but not with this van but if upgrade to van with higher gvm to acheive this is this possible cheers

Travelyounger,

As you are the OP I feel I should try to assist.

In your situation you have the following:

Tug GVM plus van ATM minus ball weight (3600+2800-250) = 6150kg. Simply put GVM plus GTM is the maximum your combination can weigh.

If you load your current combination to 6400kg you will be overweight and illegal probably on the tug.

travelyounger · Guru

To Montie I have a gvm on vehicle of 3.6 and agcm of 7.1 as previously posted all legal if anyone does not believe in this ring Lovells head office and speak to Dave the state manager he can even e mail you all the specs and the process of the upgrade cheers

yobarr · Guru

travelyounger wrote:
To Montie I have a gvm on vehicle of 3.6 and agcm of 7.1 as previously posted all legal if anyone does not believe in this ring Lovells head office and speak to Dave the state manager he can even e mail you all the specs and the process of the upgrade cheers

It matters not what they say,what they do,or what they write,the fact always will remain that there is no way known that you can exceed 6750kg towing a PIG trailer,assuming 10% towball weight. And if you want to stay within your axle limits on the car your maximum GCM is 6590kg.(Please refer to an earlier post for those details)The only way you can get close to 7100kg....and you can never actually get to that figure....is to tow a 3500kg DOG trailer.This is how they justify claiming 7100kg GCM.Cheers.

iana · Guru

I'm gunna have to put this down on paper, my head is ringing. I wish the salesman who sold us our van was as conscientious about weights as you are montie. The truth of the matter is all they want is a sale. The rego. form on our ute. stated a GCM of 6500 kg, but I bet he knew it was only 6000. But he didn't say Jack Sh-t, and we lost half a tonne overnight after buying the van.

It was the rego. papers that really threw us, as we were told by the vehicle supplier that this ute. had to be taken to the rego. place and be weighed before it could be registered as the weights would be different.

-- Edited by iana on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 10:01:11 AM

montie · Guru

iana wrote:
I'm gunna have to put this down on paper, my head is ringing. I wish the salesman who sold us our van was as conscientious about weights as you are montie. The truth of the matter is all they want is a sale. The rego. form on our ute. stated a GCM of 6500 kg, but I bet he knew it was only 6000. But he didn't say Jack Sh-t, and we lost half a tonne overnight after buying the van.

It was the rego. papers that really threw us, as we were told by the vehicle supplier that this ute. had to be taken to the rego. place and be weighed before it could be registered as the weights would be different.

-- Edited by iana on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 10:01:11 AM

Iana I am a tad confused.

If the rego papers said the GCM was 6500kg where did the 500kg go? What was the tug manufacturer's rating?

Iva Biggen · Senior Member

travelyounger wrote:
Thanks Iva At least someone out there knows about these upgrades and the different state rules and being told about the zero chance of loading your vehicle and van to its legal weight to be safe and legal on the roads.It has cost 4500 to get this upgrade not counting 2000 when I bought the car to carry the extra weight so Im glad you know about whats involved .I originally started this post ( go back in history to approx 22 to 25 ) and my original question was has anyone had a gvm and gcm upgrade and have a look at some of the responses I get from these highly intellectual people cheers safe travels

Thanks travelyounger,

I dont know how much more simply we can put it.

Unfortunately some read into regulations that may be correct when in a given state but this is not what we are discussing here.

We are discussing the fact that a vehicle owner can operate outside these regulations provided he has his vehicle modified legally to operate outside standard guidelines.

The ability to modify these vehicles to do this is granted to very few companies of which Lovells is one and probably the only one that may offer the modification that is recognised by law all over Australia. At the least this is the case with the Lovell modification and approval on my sons 200 series and I would assume that this is the same situation with the upgrade on your DMax.

There are thousands of these upgrades in place in Australia and not only with us mere mortals on a caravanners forum but to mining and construction companies make regular use of these approved modifications. There would be massive litigation should these modifications be illegal even after the modification is recognised in each state by having the approved work done.

Unfortunately we have very confusing terminology in Australia brought about by the caravan and trailer industry, the transport industry and the unfortunate situation of several state based regulations.

This is how it was explained to me

ATM is the total weight of the loaded trailer when it is NOT attached to the the vehicle.

GVM is the complete mass of the loaded vehicle.

GTM is the weight of the loaded axles on a trailer

GCM is the COMBINATION of all the weights that make up the entire total weights of all trailers and tow vehicle.

GVM plus GTM equals GCM.

The important word in all of this is COMBINATION.

GCM along with GVM is the figure that is upgraded hopefully legally and this is the NEW figure.

These figures are approved by the relevant authorities on these upgrades.

Now let me address Yobarrs rude comments about me and my understanding of these APPROVED upgrades.

He claims that he is from a trucking background as he has stated many times he managed to jockey a b double up and down the highway. Well I wonder if our Yobarr actually at any time had to cart an oversized load be it weight or dimension anywhere in our country.

If he did he would know that to do this he would need a permit from a govt authority giving him permission to travel on that road while exceeding standard weigh or dimension.

This permit would be issued and carried by the driver in the tow vehicle (is this all sounding familiar) in his folder of required paperwork. These permits are issued by authorities all over Australia to cover a many varying situations that may be required from time to time in differing situations and locations. They can be issued for a twelve month period if the operation requires repeated travel. In keeping up with the times a lot of this may be recorded and displayed digitally these days.

The difference with a light vehicle upgrade is that a GVM GCM upgrade stays with the vehicle and its current owner until it is sold or moves interstate. If it is sold within the state of registration then it will transfer to the new owner and if it is sold across a state border the modification is still valid and recognised but must be re inspected by a qualified engineer prior o the upgrade applying in the new state. Once these are applied the vehicle and its owner are free to travel in any state they choose.

Travelyounger, this is not your case nor is it the case of my son as you are both current owners of the upgraded vehicle.

GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the total combination weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer.

GCM applies wether the vehicle is operating under its standard configuration in which case the GCM is what is on the manufacturers plate or in the case of an upgraded vehicle the GCM is what is included on the new secondary vehicle manufactures plate and the subsequent paperwork which, as stated must be carried in the tow vehicle.

I did state earlier for anyone considering this to do their homework and receive accurate information before going off half ****ed on what you may read on a forum. Genuine legal approval is just that, there is no smoke and mirrors, just facts.

As I said, well done travelyounger, enjoy your legal journey.

montie · Guru

Travelyounger has had a lot of misinformed advice from some posters and I just hope for his sake that he doesn't have an accident with his current combination loaded to 6400kg or his new combination to 7100kg. A GN was recently charged for operating an overweight rig involved in a fatal accident.

Upon invitation from some clubs I have been asked to attend their meeting to give advice on weights and ratings and in all cases I have found the most misunderstood rating is GCM.
Unlike some posters on this forum the members who attended these meetings were willing to learn and listen to advice.

yobarr · Guru

i

kk

Iva Biggen wrote:
travelyounger wrote:
Thanks Iva At least someone out there knows about these upgrades and the different state rules and being told about the zero chance of loading your vehicle and van to its legal weight to be safe and legal on the roads.It has cost 4500 to get this upgrade not counting 2000 when I bought the car to carry the extra weight so Im glad you know about whats involved .I originally started this post ( go back in history to approx 22 to 25 ) and my original question was has anyone had a gvm and gcm upgrade and have a look at some of the responses I get from these highly intellectual people cheers safe travels
Thanks travelyounger,
I dont know how much more simply we can put it.
Unfortunately some read into regulations that may be correct when in a given state but this is not what we are discussing here.
We are discussing the fact that a vehicle owner can operate outside these regulations provided he has his vehicle modified legally to operate outside standard guidelines.
The ability to modify these vehicles to do this is granted to very few companies of which Lovells is one and probably the only one that may offer the modification that is recognised by law all over Australia. At the least this is the case with the Lovell modification and approval on my sons 200 series and I would assume that this is the same situation with the upgrade on your DMax.
There are thousands of these upgrades in place in Australia and not only with us mere mortals on a caravanners forum but to mining and construction companies make regular use of these approved modifications. There would be massive litigation should these modifications be illegal even after the modification is recognised in each state by having the approved work done.
Unfortunately we have very confusing terminology in Australia brought about by the caravan and trailer industry, the transport industry and the unfortunate situation of several state based regulations.
This is how it was explained to me
ATM is the total weight of the loaded trailer when it is NOT attached to the the vehicle.
GVM is the complete mass of the loaded vehicle.
GTM is the weight of the loaded axles on a trailer
GCM is the COMBINATION of all the weights that make up the entire total weights of all trailers and tow vehicle.
GVM plus GTM equals GCM.
The important word in all of this is COMBINATION.
GCM along with GVM is the figure that is upgraded hopefully legally and this is the NEW figure.
These figures are approved by the relevant authorities on these upgrades.
Now let me address Yobarrs rude comments about me and my understanding of these APPROVED upgrades.
He claims that he is from a trucking background as he has stated many times he managed to jockey a b double up and down the highway. Well I wonder if our Yobarr actually at any time had to cart an oversized load be it weight or dimension anywhere in our country.
If he did he would know that to do this he would need a permit from a govt authority giving him permission to travel on that road while exceeding standard weigh or dimension.
This permit would be issued and carried by the driver in the tow vehicle (is this all sounding familiar) in his folder of required paperwork. These permits are issued by authorities all over Australia to cover a many varying situations that may be required from time to time in differing situations and locations. They can be issued for a twelve month period if the operation requires repeated travel. In keeping up with the times a lot of this may be recorded and displayed digitally these days.
The difference with a light vehicle upgrade is that a GVM GCM upgrade stays with the vehicle and its current owner until it is sold or moves interstate. If it is sold within the state of registration then it will transfer to the new owner and if it is sold across a state border the modification is still valid and recognised but must be re inspected by a qualified engineer prior o the upgrade applying in the new state. Once these are applied the vehicle and its owner are free to travel in any state they choose.
Travelyounger, this is not your case nor is it the case of my son as you are both current owners of the upgraded vehicle.
GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the total combination weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer.
GCM applies wether the vehicle is operating under its standard configuration in which case the GCM is what is on the manufacturers plate or in the case of an upgraded vehicle the GCM is what is included on the new secondary vehicle manufactures plate and the subsequent paperwork which, as stated must be carried in the tow vehicle.
I did state earlier for anyone considering this to do their homework and receive accurate information before going off half ****ed on what you may read on a forum. Genuine legal approval is just that, there is no smoke and mirrors, just facts.
As I said, well done travelyounger, enjoy your legal journey.

Ivan....your advice is demonstrably wrong,and I simply do not understand how you can continue to blatantly endorse,and even encourage, the OPs setting sail in an unsafe,overloaded and illegal vehicle? How many times do we need to present indesputable proof that your assertions are absolutely and totally wrong? All the necessary facts are detailed in previous posts,so I will not submit them again.If you prefer to absolutely ignore the facts,and the law,you are welcome to go ahead and do so.But please do not encourage the OP to do the same. Unless,of course,you are willing to reimburse him for any costs incurred when an insurance claim is refused after an accident involving this illegal vehicle.Again I will say.....the OP can never legally get to 7100kg,although a DOG trailer will get him very close,missing out only by the tongue weight of the drawbar.Again I welcome the OP to contact me via PM or my private email address,which they have.Cheers.

P.S Are you sure that you are not being mischievious,as little you submit makes any sense.

Iva Biggen · Senior Member

montie wrote:
Travelyounger has had a lot of misinformed advice from some posters and I just hope for his sake that he doesn't have an accident with his current combination loaded to 6400kg or his new combination to 7100kg. A GN was recently charged for operating an overweight rig involved in a fatal accident.

Upon invitation from some clubs I have been asked to attend their meeting to give advice on weights and ratings and in all cases I have found the most misunderstood rating is GCM.
Unlike some posters on this forum the members who attended these meetings were willing to learn and listen to advice.

Montie, once again with respect, your comments may be referring to an unmodified and unapproved vehicle.

This topic although has ventured far off track is about an approved upgrade.

The approved upgrade is just that...it is approved.

Reference to a caravan accident when no one knows the details only creates confusion.

If any vehicle has a legal upgrade then it is legal, it is approved, that is it. I suggest that you do some more research divorced of the caravan manufacturers and clubs.

Here is a very simple weight chart which says it as it is GCM is just that. When the complete unit is weighed in a loaded state then that is the GCM. If the GCM has been upgraded and approved legally then that is what the new figure is.

Please read all of my original post on this topic and probably then read my subsequent posts. If you do some enquires you will find that a GCM approved figure is just that...the vehicle has been modified and approved to have the stated GVM and GCM and be used legally on the road.

There is no smoke and mirrors with GCM it is just that Gross Combination Mass of a loaded vehicle ready for travel. See the chart.

-- Edited by Iva Biggen on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 11:55:36 AM

yobarr · Guru

Iva Biggen wrote:
montie wrote:
Travelyounger has had a lot of misinformed advice from some posters and I just hope for his sake that he doesn't have an accident with his current combination loaded to 6400kg or his new combination to 7100kg. A GN was recently charged for operating an overweight rig involved in a fatal accident.

Upon invitation from some clubs I have been asked to attend their meeting to give advice on weights and ratings and in all cases I have found the most misunderstood rating is GCM.
Unlike some posters on this forum the members who attended these meetings were willing to learn and listen to advice.
Montie, once again with respect, your comments may be referring to an unmodified and unapproved vehicle.
This topic although has ventured far off track is about an approved upgrade.
The approved upgrade is just that...it is approved.
Reference to a caravan accident when no one knows the details only creates confusion.
If any vehicle has a legal upgrade then it is legal, it is approved, that is it. I suggest that you do some more research divorced of the caravan manufacturers and clubs.
Here is a very simple weight chart which says it as it is GCM is just that. When the complete unit is weighed in a loaded state then that is the GCM. If the GCM has been upgraded and approved legally then that is what the new figure is.
Please read all of my original post on this topic and probably then read my subsequent posts. If you do some enquires you will find that a GCM approved figure is just that...the vehicle has been modified and approved to have the stated GVM and GCM and be used legally on the road.
There is no smoke and mirrors with GCM it is just that Gross Combination Mass of a loaded vehicle ready for travel. See the chart.
-- Edited by Iva Biggen on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 11:55:36 AM

Nobody is disputing that the 7100kg upgrade is approved,but it is impossible to reach that figure with a PIG trailer,or indeed,even a Dog trailer.The 3600kg GVM figure for the car includes 350kg towball weight.That towball weight has been subtracted from the van ATM of 3500kg,so that the GTM is 3150kg.IF you want to rabbit on about a 3500kg GTM,which you would need to reach 7100kg GCM,your van would have to have an ATM of 3850kg.The car has a tow capacity of 3500kg so instantly you are 350kg over its towing capacity,unsafe,and illegal.I cannot present the facts more simply.A car with a towing capacity of 3500kg cannot ever tow a van with a GTM of 3500kg.End of story.I sincerely hope that this helps you understand the facts,and I urge you to cease giving false hope to the OP,and possibly others? Cheers.

Iva Biggen · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:

i
i
kk
Iva Biggen wrote:
travelyounger wrote:
Thanks Iva At least someone out there knows about these upgrades and the different state rules and being told about the zero chance of loading your vehicle and van to its legal weight to be safe and legal on the roads.It has cost 4500 to get this upgrade not counting 2000 when I bought the car to carry the extra weight so Im glad you know about whats involved .I originally started this post ( go back in history to approx 22 to 25 ) and my original question was has anyone had a gvm and gcm upgrade and have a look at some of the responses I get from these highly intellectual people cheers safe travels
Thanks travelyounger,
I dont know how much more simply we can put it.
Unfortunately some read into regulations that may be correct when in a given state but this is not what we are discussing here.
We are discussing the fact that a vehicle owner can operate outside these regulations provided he has his vehicle modified legally to operate outside standard guidelines.
The ability to modify these vehicles to do this is granted to very few companies of which Lovells is one and probably the only one that may offer the modification that is recognised by law all over Australia. At the least this is the case with the Lovell modification and approval on my sons 200 series and I would assume that this is the same situation with the upgrade on your DMax.
There are thousands of these upgrades in place in Australia and not only with us mere mortals on a caravanners forum but to mining and construction companies make regular use of these approved modifications. There would be massive litigation should these modifications be illegal even after the modification is recognised in each state by having the approved work done.
Unfortunately we have very confusing terminology in Australia brought about by the caravan and trailer industry, the transport industry and the unfortunate situation of several state based regulations.
This is how it was explained to me
ATM is the total weight of the loaded trailer when it is NOT attached to the the vehicle.
GVM is the complete mass of the loaded vehicle.
GTM is the weight of the loaded axles on a trailer
GCM is the COMBINATION of all the weights that make up the entire total weights of all trailers and tow vehicle.
GVM plus GTM equals GCM.
The important word in all of this is COMBINATION.
GCM along with GVM is the figure that is upgraded hopefully legally and this is the NEW figure.
These figures are approved by the relevant authorities on these upgrades.
Now let me address Yobarrs rude comments about me and my understanding of these APPROVED upgrades.
He claims that he is from a trucking background as he has stated many times he managed to jockey a b double up and down the highway. Well I wonder if our Yobarr actually at any time had to cart an oversized load be it weight or dimension anywhere in our country.
If he did he would know that to do this he would need a permit from a govt authority giving him permission to travel on that road while exceeding standard weigh or dimension.
This permit would be issued and carried by the driver in the tow vehicle (is this all sounding familiar) in his folder of required paperwork. These permits are issued by authorities all over Australia to cover a many varying situations that may be required from time to time in differing situations and locations. They can be issued for a twelve month period if the operation requires repeated travel. In keeping up with the times a lot of this may be recorded and displayed digitally these days.
The difference with a light vehicle upgrade is that a GVM GCM upgrade stays with the vehicle and its current owner until it is sold or moves interstate. If it is sold within the state of registration then it will transfer to the new owner and if it is sold across a state border the modification is still valid and recognised but must be re inspected by a qualified engineer prior o the upgrade applying in the new state. Once these are applied the vehicle and its owner are free to travel in any state they choose.
Travelyounger, this is not your case nor is it the case of my son as you are both current owners of the upgraded vehicle.
GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the total combination weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer.
GCM applies wether the vehicle is operating under its standard configuration in which case the GCM is what is on the manufacturers plate or in the case of an upgraded vehicle the GCM is what is included on the new secondary vehicle manufactures plate and the subsequent paperwork which, as stated must be carried in the tow vehicle.
I did state earlier for anyone considering this to do their homework and receive accurate information before going off half ****ed on what you may read on a forum. Genuine legal approval is just that, there is no smoke and mirrors, just facts.
As I said, well done travelyounger, enjoy your legal journey.
Ivan....your advice is demonstrably wrong,and I simply do not understand how you can continue to blatantly endorse,and even encourage, the OPs setting sail in an unsafe,overloaded and illegal vehicle? How many times do we need to present indesputable proof that your assertions are absolutely and totally wrong? All the necessary facts are detailed in previous posts,so I will not submit them again.If you prefer to absolutely ignore the facts,and the law,you are welcome to go ahead and do so.But please do not encourage the OP to do the same. Unless,of course,you are willing to reimburse him for any costs incurred when an insurance claim is refused after an accident involving this illegal vehicle.Again I will say.....the OP can never legally get to 7100kg,although a DOG trailer will get him very close,missing out only by the tongue weight of the drawbar.Again I welcome the OP to contact me via PM or my private email address,which they have.Cheers.
P.S Are you sure that you are not being mischievious,as little you submit makes any sense.

It obviously makes no sense to you but can you please tell me this.

GCM is the weight of the vehicle and the and the trailer while connected, do you agree or disagree?

Travelyounger has had a legal upgrade for GVM and GCM by an approved manufacturer, do you agree or disagree?

Travelyoungers GCM is under his NEW allowable GCM and his vehicle GVM, do you agree or disagree?

Travelyounger is now travelling legally and with his upgraded vehicle specifications, do you agree or disagree?

The weight chart in my obove post is correct, do you agree or disagree?

By answering yes or no to those four simple questions it will then provide some understanding to rest of our interested forum members as to where your problems are with this mans vehicle combination.

From there we will prevent this circle work from you and be able to analyse your thoughts based on facts other than what I have already mentioned.

Over to you Yobarr

Iva Biggen · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
travelyounger wrote:
To Montie I have a gvm on vehicle of 3.6 and agcm of 7.1 as previously posted all legal if anyone does not believe in this ring Lovells head office and speak to Dave the state manager he can even e mail you all the specs and the process of the upgrade cheers
It matters not what they say,what they do,or what they write,the fact always will remain that there is no way known that you can exceed 6750kg towing a PIG trailer,assuming 10% towball weight. And if you want to stay within your axle limits on the car your maximum GCM is 6590kg.(Please refer to an earlier post for those details)The only way you can get close to 7100kg....and you can never actually get to that figure....is to tow a 3500kg DOG trailer.This is how they justify claiming 7100kg GCM.Cheers.

Well posts are happening so quickly on here that I missed this absolute GEM

When challenged I did provide exactly how it can be done legally in a post above but you seem to know more than these engineers and authorities that provide these legal approvals so answer my 4 questions.

yobarr · Guru

Gotta go out for a while,but I will address your questions when I return.I will,however,ask you to confirm whether you are talking about his present 2800kg ATM van,or the yet to be purchased 3500kg ATM van? Your pretty pictures seem to show the basic facts,but the main problem the OP has is axle weights on the car.There is no way that he will get 1450kg into the front axle,and a 350kg ball weight will put over 500kg extra on the rear axle of the car.At 3650kg GVM on my car,with minimal TBO and the van attached,I have only 1350kg on the steer. Cheers.

JackoFJR · Senior Member

I haven't really read all this thread but I will , but it sounds a bit like the specs for my Y62 Patrol it has a GVM of 3.5T and a tow capacity of 3.5T and the GCV is listed as 7T , now that's impossible as far as I can tell . It might be possible with a Dog trailed but I really don't know how .

montie · Guru

Iva Biggen wrote:
montie wrote:
Travelyounger has had a lot of misinformed advice from some posters and I just hope for his sake that he doesn't have an accident with his current combination loaded to 6400kg or his new combination to 7100kg. A GN was recently charged for operating an overweight rig involved in a fatal accident.

Upon invitation from some clubs I have been asked to attend their meeting to give advice on weights and ratings and in all cases I have found the most misunderstood rating is GCM.
Unlike some posters on this forum the members who attended these meetings were willing to learn and listen to advice.
Montie, once again with respect, your comments may be referring to an unmodified and unapproved vehicle.
It doesn't matter if it's modified or not you cannot exceed another rating to achieve the new GCM rating
This topic although has ventured far off track is about an approved upgrade.
The approved upgrade is just that...it is approved.
An approved upgrade does not legally allow you to exceed another rating.
Reference to a caravan accident when no one knows the details only creates confusion.
I can post full details as reported in June
If any vehicle has a legal upgrade then it is legal, it is approved, that is it. I suggest that you do some more research divorced of the caravan manufacturers and clubs.
And I suggest you familiarse yourself with the full meaning of vehicle GCM and stop posting misinformation. Nobody is suggesting that the upgrade is not legal and that it is allowing a new rating of 7100kg, however, you cannot achieve that rating without exceeding the tug GVM by the ball weight.
Here is a very simple weight chart which says it as it is GCM is just that. When the complete unit is weighed in a loaded state then that is the GCM. If the GCM has been upgraded and approved legally then that is what the new figure is.
You are now confusing measured weights with a Rating. You cannot weigh the GCM, you can only weigh the tug and van combination and compare it with the rating.
Please read all of my original post on this topic and probably then read my subsequent posts. If you do some enquires you will find that a GCM approved figure is just that...the vehicle has been modified and approved to have the stated GVM and GCM and be used legally on the road.
There is no smoke and mirrors with GCM it is just that Gross Combination Mass of a loaded vehicle ready for travel. See the chart.
FYI and this is the current legal weight situation:
The measured weight of the attached van and tug combination cannot legally exceed the lesser of the following:
1) The tug or upgraded rating. (7100kg)
2) Tug GVM plus Van GTM. (3600kg+3150kg)= 6750kg.
In this instance the lesser is 6750kg which is legally the most his combination can weigh upgrade or not.
I may be stating the obvious here but GTM is the difference between ATM and measured ball weight which I have taken at 350kg or 10%.
To even simplify it further if you hook the fully loaded van 3500kg to a fully loaded tug 3600kg you will transfer 350kg to the already fully loaded tug pushing it overweight by 350kg and illegal.

-- Edited by Iva Biggen on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 11:55:36 AM

yobarr · Guru

Iva Biggen wrote:
yobarr wrote:

i
i
kk
Iva Biggen wrote:
travelyounger wrote:
Thanks Iva At least someone out there knows about these upgrades and the different state rules and being told about the zero chance of loading your vehicle and van to its legal weight to be safe and legal on the roads.It has cost 4500 to get this upgrade not counting 2000 when I bought the car to carry the extra weight so Im glad you know about whats involved .I originally started this post ( go back in history to approx 22 to 25 ) and my original question was has anyone had a gvm and gcm upgrade and have a look at some of the responses I get from these highly intellectual people cheers safe travels
Thanks travelyounger,
I dont know how much more simply we can put it.
Unfortunately some read into regulations that may be correct when in a given state but this is not what we are discussing here.
We are discussing the fact that a vehicle owner can operate outside these regulations provided he has his vehicle modified legally to operate outside standard guidelines.
The ability to modify these vehicles to do this is granted to very few companies of which Lovells is one and probably the only one that may offer the modification that is recognised by law all over Australia. At the least this is the case with the Lovell modification and approval on my sons 200 series and I would assume that this is the same situation with the upgrade on your DMax.
There are thousands of these upgrades in place in Australia and not only with us mere mortals on a caravanners forum but to mining and construction companies make regular use of these approved modifications. There would be massive litigation should these modifications be illegal even after the modification is recognised in each state by having the approved work done.
Unfortunately we have very confusing terminology in Australia brought about by the caravan and trailer industry, the transport industry and the unfortunate situation of several state based regulations.
This is how it was explained to me
ATM is the total weight of the loaded trailer when it is NOT attached to the the vehicle.
GVM is the complete mass of the loaded vehicle.
GTM is the weight of the loaded axles on a trailer
GCM is the COMBINATION of all the weights that make up the entire total weights of all trailers and tow vehicle.
GVM plus GTM equals GCM.
The important word in all of this is COMBINATION.
GCM along with GVM is the figure that is upgraded hopefully legally and this is the NEW figure.
These figures are approved by the relevant authorities on these upgrades.
Now let me address Yobarrs rude comments about me and my understanding of these APPROVED upgrades.
He claims that he is from a trucking background as he has stated many times he managed to jockey a b double up and down the highway. Well I wonder if our Yobarr actually at any time had to cart an oversized load be it weight or dimension anywhere in our country.
If he did he would know that to do this he would need a permit from a govt authority giving him permission to travel on that road while exceeding standard weigh or dimension.
This permit would be issued and carried by the driver in the tow vehicle (is this all sounding familiar) in his folder of required paperwork. These permits are issued by authorities all over Australia to cover a many varying situations that may be required from time to time in differing situations and locations. They can be issued for a twelve month period if the operation requires repeated travel. In keeping up with the times a lot of this may be recorded and displayed digitally these days.
The difference with a light vehicle upgrade is that a GVM GCM upgrade stays with the vehicle and its current owner until it is sold or moves interstate. If it is sold within the state of registration then it will transfer to the new owner and if it is sold across a state border the modification is still valid and recognised but must be re inspected by a qualified engineer prior o the upgrade applying in the new state. Once these are applied the vehicle and its owner are free to travel in any state they choose.
Travelyounger, this is not your case nor is it the case of my son as you are both current owners of the upgraded vehicle.
GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the total combination weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer.
GCM applies wether the vehicle is operating under its standard configuration in which case the GCM is what is on the manufacturers plate or in the case of an upgraded vehicle the GCM is what is included on the new secondary vehicle manufactures plate and the subsequent paperwork which, as stated must be carried in the tow vehicle.
I did state earlier for anyone considering this to do their homework and receive accurate information before going off half ****ed on what you may read on a forum. Genuine legal approval is just that, there is no smoke and mirrors, just facts.
As I said, well done travelyounger, enjoy your legal journey.
Ivan....your advice is demonstrably wrong,and I simply do not understand how you can continue to blatantly endorse,and even encourage, the OPs setting sail in an unsafe,overloaded and illegal vehicle? How many times do we need to present indesputable proof that your assertions are absolutely and totally wrong? All the necessary facts are detailed in previous posts,so I will not submit them again.If you prefer to absolutely ignore the facts,and the law,you are welcome to go ahead and do so.But please do not encourage the OP to do the same. Unless,of course,you are willing to reimburse him for any costs incurred when an insurance claim is refused after an accident involving this illegal vehicle.Again I will say.....the OP can never legally get to 7100kg,although a DOG trailer will get him very close,missing out only by the tongue weight of the drawbar.Again I welcome the OP to contact me via PM or my private email address,which they have.Cheers.
P.S Are you sure that you are not being mischievious,as little you submit makes any sense.

It obviously makes no sense to you but can you please tell me this.
GCM is the weight of the vehicle and the and the trailer while connected, do you agree or disagree? ......Is this a trick question? GCM is the MAXIMUM allowed weight of the car and van when connected.

Travelyounger has had a legal upgrade for GVM and GCM by an approved manufacturer, do you agree or disagree? ..........Who knows? I have not sighted a compliance plate.

Travelyoungers GCM is under his NEW allowable GCM and his vehicle GVM, do you agree or disagree? .......Another trick question? Both vans are legal,but with the 3500kg van he can get to only a total weight on wheels of 6750kg,assuming 10% ball weight.On both counts he is legal,but nowhere near 7100kg. Before the van is connected,the car can weigh no more than 3250kg,but remember that the van will take around 160kg off the lfront axle and transfer it to the rear axle.Along with the 350kg towball weight,this will add over 500kg to the rear axle.Assuming that the front axle was at the maximum of 1450kg before the van was connected,that axle will now drop to 1290kg. Along with the rear axle capacity of 2150kg,we then would have total weight on wheels of 3440kg.To this we add the 3150kg GTM (3500 minus 350) for total weight on wheels of 6590kg. (For the sake of simplicity,we can refer to this as GCM.....OK?) This is light years away from 7100kg,you would agree?

Travelyounger is now travelling legally and with his upgraded vehicle specifications, do you agree or disagree? .......he is NOW legal (2800kg ATM van) and still will be legal with his new 3500kg ATM van....but nowhere near the claimed 7100kg GCM.There never has been any dispute that he will be legal,only that he cannot get within a country mile of the claimed 7100kg.That fact cannot be changed,no matter how much ducking,weaving, procrastinating or prevarication takes place. Ignorance is bliss.

The weight chart in my obove post is correct, do you agree or disagree? ........looks OK,but absolutely no indication of how towball weight affects axle loadings.

By answering yes or no to those four simple questions it will then provide some understanding to rest of our interested forum members as to where your problems are with this mans vehicle combination.
From there we will prevent this circle work from you and be able to analyse your thoughts based on facts other than what I have already mentioned.
CIRCLE WORK FROM YOU......Indeed there has been no CIRCLE WORK (your words) from me,as all I have ever done is correct the misinformation printed by you.I have no doubt that you genuinely believe what you write,but it is wrong,which does not bother me too much.What does concern me is that such information gives false hope to those who have little understanding of weights,and are looking for some reassurance that their severely overloaded cars are legal.They are not.Cheers
Over to you Yobarr.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 31st of July 2019 05:39:33 AM

yobarr · Guru

JackoFJR wrote:
I haven't really read all this thread but I will , but it sounds a bit like the specs for my Y62 Patrol it has a GVM of 3.5T and a tow capacity of 3.5T and the GCV is listed as 7T , now that's impossible as far as I can tell . It might be possible with a Dog trailed but I really don't know how .

Hi Ron from West Gippsland....I used to work at Rosedale,WAY back. Anyway,to answer your question,your maximum GCM with a PIG trailer is 6520kg.If you would like that explained,please PM me.I have almost had enough of arguing with those who know little,argue anyway,and refuse to acknowledge the facts.Cheers.

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 30th of July 2019 02:29:32 PM

iana · Guru

Montie was going to pm you, but I'm across the Nullabor and the reception is poor. 6500 was a typo by the transport and registration dept, the correct GVM is 6000kg. Of course they have left the square blank now to cover up.

montie · Guru

iana wrote:
Montie was going to pm you, but I'm across the Nullabor and the reception is poor. 6500 was a typo by the transport and registration dept, the correct GVM is 6000kg. Of course they have left the square blank now to cover up.

Iana,

The vehicle sales person should provide you with all the ratings for the tug he is selling you which would include GVM, GCM and of course towing capacity.

The van salesman should provide you with all the ratings information such as ATM and estimated payload capacity. He should also ensure that your tug is legally capable of towing the van you are purchasing.

travelyounger · Guru

As I mentioned before take up your arguement with lovells NSW they take liability for any issues for the upgrade they are the only company in Australia that will give a gvm and gcm upgrade I would think they would know more about weights and regulations than you guys and I feel safe on the road I know the weight I carry I respect other drivers and especially trucks I don't pull out in front of traffic I go slow downhills I move over for faster vehicles and some of them are the cowboy caravaners towing bigger vans and payloads than myself with prados ,older hilux pajero why don't you have a whinge about them and leave the people who are more educated about the topic alone

montie · Guru

travelyounger wrote:
As I mentioned before take up your arguement with lovells NSW they take liability for any issues for the upgrade they are the only company in Australia that will give a gvm and gcm upgrade I would think they would know more about weights and regulations than you guys and I feel safe on the road I know the weight I carry I respect other drivers and especially trucks I don't pull out in front of traffic I go slow downhills I move over for faster vehicles and some of them are the cowboy caravaners towing bigger vans and payloads than myself with prados ,older hilux pajero why don't you have a whinge about them and leave the people who are more educated about the topic alone

Travelyounger,

As a final word of advice for you may I suggest that you contact Lovell's yourself and ask them the following question.

You have a tug with upgraded GVM of 3600kg and GCM of 7100kg. You have a 3500kg towing capacity with a ball weight of 10% or 350kg.

Your question to them....What is the maximum my combination can weigh legally? Answer 6750kg but dont take my word for it ask them!

It could save you a lot of anxt in the event of an accident.

Happy travels smile