David Attenborough: The planet cant cope with overpopulation

Craig1 · Guru

Climate change???? Worth reading

LLD · Guru

Comments on the protest in Melbourne last week on Climate Change.

How did the protesters get into the city? I'm guessing they didn't walk or ride bikes. Got trains / trams. What do they run on? How are those vehicles made? Massive amounts of electricity that solar & wind cannot supply. Their memory of climate is only 15-21 years old. Lots of extremes quoted lately are quoting records that are only 25-40 years old. Climate changes are cyclical. People under 40 are only moving out of their comfort zone. Even a greenie noted that it was moving out of our comfort zone was a big issue (without realising what he said). Some of the coastal areas that are disappearing on Pacific islands were reclaimed when sea levels dropped in the 1970s.

For me the most important item (after over population) is landfill and the excess energy used in overproduction, planned obsolescence, packaging and sheer sheer waste that goes to landfill. We had a small galvanised bin in the 1950's that took all our rubbish. Now we have a large weekly bin to take rubbish, a much larger fortnightly bin to take re-cycle stuff and a fortnightly bin for greens. We did however recycle paper / cardboard and glass with regular collections by the Scouts or Charities.

(steps down off soapbox)

Plain Truth · Guru

Worth a look, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_kVoQYRTDA

LLD · Guru

One of the causes of Lake Wendouree (Ballarat) drying out was that a catchment area had been turned into a housing estate. All the runoff from the roofs and roads was now bypassing the drains that were going into the lake. Human problem but not global warming. Problem now fixed.

oldbloke · Guru

"Over Population of the earth sure is a problem. Dont know the answer."

The solution is simple. Ban any male under the age of 60 having sex. Lol. Just leave it to me.

spida · Guru

Thank you Roy. Hurrah for someone else who is prepared to look at the big picture and wonder. I certainly do not deny climate change but do question if reducing carbon the answer if we want to keep plants growing to feed us all. Plastic waste is a much more serious problem that maybe in our short life time we could do something about..

Plain Truth · Guru

Lets look at climate change overseas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFc3Kt_lZek

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Why is it some people only want to believe the nay sayers who know jack **** about climate and its intricacy's, but aren't prepared to listen to the vast majority of scientists whose field of study IS climate.

What kind of planet are you bequeathing your children and grand children and will they blame you.

Alan

Greystone · Senior Member

We've heard all the climate change deniers' myths before. No point mounting a logical scientific argument against illogical rants. This website lists all their myths and debunks them. https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

sandman55 · Guru

Roy F makes a good point about the problem of Population growth. China tried to tackle it with their one child policy which was hard on it's people and it had it's problems with a higher proportion of males being born than females (we know the cause) perhaps it would have been easier on them if they made it two children. They now have the problem of an aging population and not so many young ones to work and care for the older ones. China has done away with the one child policy and now has a two child policy so I guess in time they will benefit from this. I am not saying I approve of this authoritative control but I can see their goal. Of course other countries still have populations that one day be hard on them.

With the discussion on climate there are some who say we are a small population we will have little effect and talk about a tax but there is another way of looking at this to turn it into a win win for all. Regardless of where you stand. If we look at what is happening now in Australia and the rest of the world we are all moving towards renewables and they are getting cheaper because more is being spent on research. It is the same with cars electronics and any growing market. So we should get on the waggon before the world leaves us behind. We should fully fund the CSIRO who gave the world WiFi and develop technology to export to the world. Also with our abundant sunshine wind and land we should be making and exporting Hydrogen to the world.

Grandad5 · Senior Member

Hear hear Sandman.... Your second paragraph is on the money. Well said

Jim

sandman55 · Guru

Thanks Jim. If I could share another of my thoughts. I am one of the many that have solar panels on my roof. I got in early but I think the country has gone the wrong way about it and I wrote to the relevant minister before getting solar to air my thoughts which was a waste of time. Imagine the Labour costs for an electrician to go to one house to put panels on the roof and when he is finished he goes ten kilometres away and repeats the process then later goes to the neighbour of the previous customer to repeat the same process.

Wouldn't we get more bang for our buck if instead of individuals putting solar on their roofs the government or a large investor or a combination of both built solar farms and individuals invested what they could afford and buy shares in the farm and then the government allow them the same treatment as if the amount of solar invested was on their roofs. That way instead of them having to declare income and be taxed on it, the income would be deducted from their power bill like it would be if it were on their roof. People renting or people selling their house would take their benefits with them when they move and if they could only afford a couple of panels they would still reduce their bills and perhaps later buy a couple more.

When it comes to building the farms the labour would be more efficiently used building at the one place and you would get more panels for your money if they were bought by the thousands instead of a dozen or so that an individual would buy.

Grandad5 · Senior Member

Sandman, these are the musings of an old fart with zero technical knowledge but I've thought of this also and came to the opposite conclusion. Short term, solar on homes seems a brilliant solution.
With a bit of incentive from the government 10's of 1000's of homes here in Bendigo now have solar on their roofs. It may even be almost into the majority of homes stage. Observation only on my part. The homeowners pay some of the cost but recoup that over time. They are also responsible for 100% of the upkeep from that time on. There is zero cost to the government for power lines to connect the solar output to the grid as there would be with a solar farm, not to mention the vast amounts of land required for such farms.
Many argue that the power going into the grid is wasted because the peak power usage is at night, but those people forget the industries and shopping centres that use huge quantities during the day.
The end result seems to be a much reduced demand on our coal fired power stations. What might the situation be of 100% of homes went down this path? Could we turn the grid off during the day? Dreaming maybe.

On the other side of the coin, a township somewhere near Daylesford has apparently created a co-op of the entire community to the tune of $10 million dollars to fund a solar farm with battery banks to power the entire town. Imagine the planning involved in something like that? Getting everyone on board etc That's a small scale version of solar farms statewide built by the government.

I see household solar panels as a small part of the overall eventual solution. And one that in the greater scheme of things seems to be a financially viable one for all. People and government.

I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next. It appears subsidies for installation of batteries may be on the horizon.
Jim

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Some good thoughts from Sandman and Grandad.

However, fraught with the problems of our capitalist, 'free economy' society.

The governments of the day, of either persuasion, are supporters of 'free enterprise' - ie the provision of services to the community are "better placed in private enterprise to gain the advantage of competitive pricing". There is ever-increasing evidence that 'government-owned/developed/operated' community utilities are a thing of the past ... all now just want to sell utilities off and walk away and put heads in the sand when prices and services fail.

Despite the 'wisdom' of having solar panels on each roof providing power for each household and trickling the 'excess' into 'the grid' it has one very unpleasant offset ... and it is constantly getting everyone's knickers in a twist - the price of power FROM the grid.

The more houses with solar panels on the roof the less that will be 'bought' from the retailers/wholesalers. That will always result in what we now have ... a fixed quantity of generated electricity with less and less being bought by households.

Simple economics - as less people purchase a particular product either the business fails - or the prices are increased to maintain 'margins/profitability'.

In regard to electricity, it will always mean increased, and increasing, prices to those who remain captive to the 'need for the grid' - particularly base load.

I think the only possible solution to not only "climate change", whether it exists or not, but also to so many of our 'community services' is for our parliaments - state and federal - to forget their petty, self-interested power struggles and GENUINELY work together and develop ACTUAL polices and then IMPLEMENT them.

How unique ............... elected representatives that work for the betterment of the NATIONAL interest.

Beware of flying pigs.

Cheers - John

Ron-D · Guru

Apparently from what I have read only seven countries are living up to the paris climate change agreement,why should Australia ride down the hill on its white horse doing it practically alone,the world needs to do it together massive countries like America and China and most are to busy making a fortune .its no good going it practically alone all that does is beggar your country playing hero...

Greystone · Senior Member

I reckon it's shameful that as a country we sign up for something, but then we renege. Is our promise worth nothing? Smaller countries are much better than we are. https://climateactiontracker.org/countries/

Rob Driver · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
"Over Population of the earth sure is a problem. Dont know the answer."

The solution is simple. Ban any male under the age of 60 having sex. Lol. Just leave it to me.

China has been aware of the effects of overpopulation for years and they do actively control the population of the country.

This would be, and is, frowned upon by most western countries.

Overpopulation is not called that in most modern countries, it is more referred to as immigration. (We gave up breeding our own in this country years ago). This method is deemed too slow by our governments of the day. It is an unfortunate situation when a couple or even sometimes just a conniving female decides to populate our country for the renumeration in the form of child support offered by successive governments.

The main reason govts want large populations is for the fact that these people can be taxed which is their sole form of raising money. The never ending circle starts here.

The more people there are the more demand there is on services and resources, the more tax is charged, the more govts rub their collective hands together and so on it goes.

On a much lighter note, if we could all just leave our solution to the overpopulation of Australia to oldbloke (above) then all would be under control. biggrin

-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Tuesday 4th of June 2019 11:03:59 AM

Grandad5 · Senior Member

Angie, I can't quite tell if you have tongue ever so slightly in cheek or are you being serious about the reasons for increasing population?

There was an expression many years ago, Populate or Die!

That still holds true today. One of the principle reasons for America's past success in manufacturing was the size of their population. (They have different issues now)
Some years ago while visiting my parents in Canada I had the opportunity to meet an American self made millionaire. He made his money with a chain of Pizza restaurants that sold only Garlic Pizzas. Nothing else. When I commented to my Dad that I couldn't imagine a Pizza chain even surviving much less doing well with such a limited menu he asked me what percentage of the population would be interested in such a store? I guessed at maybe 1% if you were lucky.

Dad agreed with that number but then went on to say, "!% of the Australian population would definitely not be a viable market size. But 1% of the American population is enough to make this man a millionaire."

Our market size is what spelled the end of our motor car industry as just one example.

Tax base certainly enters into it. Many of our major infrastructure expenses are hampered by the small size of our tax paying population. The more people there are working and paying taxes the larger our customer base for all Australian businesses of any kind, plus the larger the tax pool to share the load on major expenses.

The tricky part for us, is to manage the speed at which immigration happens so as not to overload current infrastructure while that same infrastructure is being built up to cope. Water supply is a major issue for us unlike most other countries.

We have a choice of seeing only the negatives of immigration or the many positives that it brings.
Try to imagine an Australia without the 10 pound Poms, Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Croatians or any other past wave of immigrants. We'd be dead in the water.
How many people reading this post would not be here today if it wasn't for am immigrant? Would there in fact be enough of us here to warrant having a forum dedicated to our specific interest?
I wouldn't be here of course as I was an immigrant. And neither would my 5 kids who are all now working, buying goods and paying taxes. Nor would any of my 8 grandkids be here to grow up, get jobs, buy goods and pay taxes.

All because of one single immigrant. Actually, two immigrants. My ex was born in England.

I choose to see the positives.

Jim

-- Edited by Grandad5 on Wednesday 5th of June 2019 10:24:00 AM

Santa · Guru

Morning Jim, most older Australians will be aware of Arthur Calwell's rallying call "populate or perish" I would suggest nowadays populate and perish would be more appropriate.

The world is in crisis, we can no longer sustain unregulated population growth, we are rapidly running out of resources, someone has to be brave enough to find a way to put the brakes on.

David Attenborough: The planet cant cope with overpopulation

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/david-attenborough-warns-planet-cant-cope-with-overpopulation/

Have a look at this world population counter, alarming to say the least https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

We have until about 2050 (when the population is predicted to be around 10 billion) to find a solution) uncontrolled population growth is simply not an option.

Grandad5 · Senior Member

On a worldwide basis, yes. David Attenborough is quite correct.
Now go to the last link you posted, click on % increase in population and then scroll down to see where we are.
Scroll quickly or you'll be scrolling for a very long time. We are way down near the bottom.

Population growth isn't our problem. Slow population growth is.

Accepting immigrants here helps not only us, but the world in general by redistribution.
We can't stop the birthrate in other countries, but we can help manage that situation, while helping ourselves at the same time.

Jim

sandman55 · Guru

Getting back to climate change there are a lot of unqualified opinions out there on the net from so called experts and bloggers, a friend posted on Facebook recently a photo of the Fort in Sydney harbour from may years back and another one from 2019 and surprise surprise the water level was the same of course there was no mention of what the tides were. I'm not saying water levels have changed and the scientists themselves have admitted that sometimes they have got it wrong but from what they are saying today and with the direction the world is going with renewables I think we have not a lot to lose by keeping on with renewables and a lot to lose if we don't and if the scientists are right. You only have to look at the sky in the industrial areas of China to wondering what that is doing to our planet and to realise that we are not the only ones on the planet that are doing something about it. The UK went recently two weeks without burning coal. More coal-fired power plants closed during Trump's first two years in office than during Barack Obama's entire first term, according to Reuters. A total of 23,400 megawatts of coal-fueled generation shut down in 2017 and 2018. http://fortune.com/2019/01/14/coal-power-plants-trump/

What ever your views the world is going away from fossil fuels and towards renewables. We are all on the same boat and going in that direction it all depends on how fast we motor.

-- Edited by sandman55 on Wednesday 5th of June 2019 01:24:23 PM

Greystone · Senior Member

Some people in Tasmania are already suffering rising sea water levels. Tell them climate change is a lie! http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-05/this-is-what-climate-change-looks-like-in-tasmania/11176182

Cyclops · Veteran Member

Dont worry about global warming too much. You will probably die of oxygen deprivation before heat stroke.

The largest store of free CO2 is in the ocean. A rise of only a minute percentage of CO2 dissolved in sea water results in acidification which is fatal to many forms of plankton and the sprat of molluscs, prawns etc. The shell fish industry on the North West coast of North America is already in trouble due to the sprat being unable to develop shell which is made up of calcium. Carbonic acid eats calcium away (that is how caves are formed in limestone; lime stone being eaten away by the carbon dioxide dissolved in rain water). Atmospheric cabon dioxide also gets dissolved in the oceans

Back to the plankton. The biomass contained in the oceans is huge and includes phytoplankton which are autotrophs ie, the primary producers of the stuff that zoo plankton (animals) and on up the food chain need for life. You remember what all animals need for life? Yes food and oxygen. No plants no food and no oxygen.

Phytoplankton are basically plants and if they perish due to acidification or of an imbalance in the ecology, say a large drop in zooplankton producing nutrients (remember in school learning about the nutrient cycle?), then there will be a corresponding drop in the amount of oxygen produced by these plants in the sea.

Now here is the scary bit. Every second breath we take comes from plants in the sea. Not just from plants on the land. If it warms up you will get hot, maybe even learn to live with it. Some of us living inland may even get expensive beach front properties, others will learn to swim. Plants will eventually evolve slowly to live in the new conditions.

BUT CAN YOUR CHILDREN LEARN TO BREATHE HALF AS MUCH?

If global warming/carbon dioxide rise is bunkum, and we cut our outputs, then all we lose is some minor part of growth in the economy and the dubious amenity of burning fossil fuel. If it is real, the consequences could be far worse than storms, sea level rise and hot days.

Are you prepared to bet your childrens future that it is bunkum?

Pete (yes I am a scientist)

-- Edited by Cyclops on Wednesday 5th of June 2019 04:41:55 PM

-- Edited by Cyclops on Wednesday 5th of June 2019 04:43:23 PM

Grandad5 · Senior Member

sandman55 wrote:
I think we have not a lot to lose by keeping on with renewables and a lot to lose if we don't and the scientists are right.

I've nothing to add, I just felt this was worth repeating.

Jim

rockylizard · Guru

sandman55 wrote:
SNIP~~~ The UK went recently two weeks without burning coal. More coal-fired power plants closed during Trump's first two years in office than during Barack Obama's entire first term, according to Reuters. A total of 23,400 megawatts of coal-fueled generation shut down in 2017 and 2018. http://fortune.com/2019/01/14/coal-power-plants-trump/
What ever your views the world is going away from fossil fuels and towards renewables. We are all on the same boat and going in that direction it all depends on how fast we motor.

Gday...

Yes, UK did go two weeks without coalfired energy ... however, it wasn't such a big achievement really -

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/31/great-britain-records-two-weeks-of-coal-free-electricity-generation

Coal has been used for electricity generation since 1882, when a plant opened in Holborn, London. However in 2018 the fuel made up just 5% of Britains electricity generation, a big decline from about 40% in 2012, according to figures from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

Coal has mainly been replaced by natural gas, which produces less than half the carbon dioxide emissions.

Cheers - John

the rocket · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
Why is it some people only want to believe the nay sayers who know jack **** about climate and its intricacy's, but aren't prepared to listen to the vast majority of scientists whose field of study IS climate.
What kind of planet are you bequeathing your children and grand children and will they blame you.
Alan

True. They are already blaming us. And they are right.

Ron-D · Guru

Grandad5 wrote:
sandman55 wrote:
I think we have not a lot to lose by keeping on with renewables and a lot to lose if we don't and the scientists are right.
I've nothing to add, I just felt this was worth repeating.
Jim

Were doing it practically alone in the world nothing will be achieved except beggaring our country and feeling good about ourselves to a certain extent,the huge industrial nations are making a fortune burning our cheap coal and not putting billions into renewables ,the poorer countries cant afford the price of renewables,I suppose poor old Australia and few other countries will have to pay the bill for it And in the end nothing at all will be achieved,because of the huge polluters and the poorer countries either make ing a fortune or cant afford the cost,it nice to play greenie hero and beggar our country to a certain extent I suppose But are we achieving anything.

Rob Driver · Guru

Ron-D wrote:
Were doing it practically alone in the world nothing will be achieved except beggaring our country and feeling good about ourselves to a certain extent ,the huge industrial nations are making a fortune burning our cheap coal and not putting billions into renewables ,the poorer countries cant afford the price of renewables, I suppose poor old Australia and few other countries will have to pay the bill for it And in the end nothing at all will be achieved, because of the huge polluters and the poorer countries either make ing a fortune or cant afford the cost, it nice to play greenie hero and beggar our country to a certain extent I suppose But are we achieving anything.

That just about sums it up Ron D

In the end in Australia we can all feel warm and fuzzy inside and continue to line the pockets of successive governments that trade on fear mongering.

Currently the Qld govt has employed Al Gore to spread the word to supporters.

I noticed that Al Gore doesnt do any lecturing in China, India and any other country that is producing goods with Australian coal to provide goods to consumers in this country.

Anyone who thinks for one minute that any Australian government of any persuasion will stop the export of coal to these countries is dreaming.

Just on another view....why dont we in Australia build nuclear power stations which are apparently climate friendly and with infrastructure in place actually sell the power to overseas countries while providing Australian manufacturers and consumers with cheap clean power that allow is to once again enjoy a healthy manufacturing industry in our country.

As long as other coal producing countries dont mind, we could all stop mining and selling coal. biggrin biggrin biggrin

Just imagine if Australia was in the box seat.....hahaha, then we would see how powerful China and some others may be.

Now I have firmly fitted the tin hat on my head so away you go.

Greystone · Senior Member

So you're happy to just sit back and let the world go to s..t.

Ron-D · Guru

No but what can we do about it nothing ,there massive countries making billons of dollars out of our cheap recsouse,do you think that will change ,if we were to use our cheap recorces for us it would be nothing compared to what the huge countries are useing ,we would be labeled enviromen bandits,even though we would not use much of our own recourses we would be the bad guys. Those evil Australians.

power stations thats something I hnow about in Russia many years one very badly built station destroyed ipoorly built out of date crap by unskilled labour even at the time rubbish ,another in japan was destroyed by an earth quake,nuclear power has been used around the world and in defence equipment the one in Sydney been running to perfection for at least twenty years.

the coal fired power stations are demonised Look the pictures on tv loads of dirty smoke coming from those great big chiminies,have a closer look thats not smoke,powe houses dont make smoke there baghouses remove it,,the so called smoke is coming from the cooling towers and turbines ...