Australian Road Test Tesla Towing Caravan

Knight · Senior Member

Australian Road Test Tesla Towing Caravan

Knight · Senior Member

When considering "fuel" the batteries pack energy source is a fuel cost because in about 8 years that will need replacement, around $15,000 including labour.

Also if the electric vehicle transition proceeds government fuel tax revenue would fall and obviously would be replaced with an EV tax.

Not many Australians could afford the Tesla tow vehicle so the price would need to drop down to match internal combustion engine vehicles.

Mariner30 · Senior Member

I wonder what the transmission would be like in 8 yrs time, Or are they just expensive throw away vehicles only good for a couple of years?

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Mariner30 wrote:
I wonder what the transmission would be like in 8 yrs time, Or are they just expensive throw away vehicles only good for a couple of years?

There is no mechanical transmission in all electric vehicles.

There is an electric motor inside each wheel. A huge reduction in moving parts will slash maintenance costs.

Cheers,

Peter

Geeco · Senior Member

My first calculator would only do 4 tasks, add, subtract, multiply & divide. It also ate batteries like there was no tomorrow. A friend said they will not catch on because if you are in a remote area and had no batteries etc etc. Then they invented calculators with solar power.
Compare your first mobile phone with the one you have today awesome advancement in the technology. I suspect the same kinds of advancements will be achieved with EV design. Get used to it IMHO it is only a matter of time. Cheers,

Mariner30 · Senior Member

I used to drive a electric vehicle around more than 40 yrs ago. There was also a engineer chap later on who converted a morris minor to run on electricity near where l worked 30 yrs ago, Apart from scaring the bejeebus out of old spinisters coming out of Safeway it wasn't really much use for anything else, I mean, you really couldn't use it for a night of spotlighting...

Knight · Senior Member

Geeco wrote:
My first calculator would only do 4 tasks, add, subtract, multiply & divide. It also ate batteries like there was no tomorrow. A friend said they will not catch on because if you are in a remote area and had no batteries etc etc. Then they invented calculators with solar power.
Compare your first mobile phone with the one you have today awesome advancement in the technology. I suspect the same kinds of advancements will be achieved with EV design. Get used to it IMHO it is only a matter of time. Cheers,

Probably right, but when that time arrives would be time to changeover the fleet and the "fuel" stations, and until that is done recharging problems and anxiety will remain a negative factor.

And when the electricity grid returns to reliability and affordability for consumers.

By the way a recent engineering report in Germany states that emissions created building batteries etc far exceed the estimated emissions reduced by taking internal combustion engines out of ports of sale. A report on wind turbines produced a similar finding. In Australia with mostly coal, gas and diesel electricity generation EV is a way to run a vehicle on coal. And it is more efficient to burn liquid hydro carbons in an internal combustion engine than to recharge with energy from coal, gas or diesel generators.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Virtually every train made in the last 50+ years has an electric drive.
Cheers,
Peter

Jaahn · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Mariner30 wrote:
I wonder what the transmission would be like in 8 yrs time, Or are they just expensive throw away vehicles only good for a couple of years?
There is no mechanical transmission in all electric vehicles.
There is an electric motor inside each wheel. A huge reduction in moving parts will slash maintenance costs.
Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter smile

That is not actually true of most/some EVs. Some have simple reduction gears and diffs. Some have two motors, some have four ! The best/cheapest/most effective mode is still being worked out.

I read Knight's posts and seem to recognise similar negative reports to those on the solar subforum. Some people cannot discuss things without bias but search for articles that show only the bad side of the discussion. Why bother is it a mission to save the world from themselves.

Jaahn

Whenarewethere · Guru

Knight wrote:
And when the electricity grid returns to reliability and affordability for consumers.

Tell me about it, I bought a $4,500 UPS (uninterruptible power supply) in 2007 as I was so sick & tired of the blackouts in the Manly area (Sydney). I worked from home & needed to actually work!

A bit like my car fridge & solar set up, I am happy to spend the money if it makes my life easier, better than a new pointless kitchen & bathroom, been there done that! & New flooring & curtains while on the subject!

If I could solve the Council issues & our block of Unit issues I would be more than happy to throw $20k to solar & batteries..... working on it slowly but an awful lot of politics!

We have already wired up the garage with 3 phase. Next task to get panels on the roof.

But at the rate we are going the only thing I will be able to power is the 1/4 mile wheelchair dragster race!

dabbler · Guru

Why would you choose a Tesla for a tow vehicle test ?

Brenda and Alan · Guru

dabbler wrote:
Why would you choose a Tesla for a tow vehicle test ?

Because you can and it can.

Alan

-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Tuesday 23rd of April 2019 08:47:18 PM

Umpie1 · Senior Member

OK so it can tow a little caravan on the flat. I doubt that it would tow my 21ft Jayco Sterling especially on the hills.

The big problem facing the electric car industry at the moment is: The cars are very expensive. Our current power system needs to be improved and enlarged, who will pay for it? What tax will the government put on electric cars to offset the loss of fuel tax & GST? What will be the cost of charging the batteries? Anyone who wants to charge their car overnight at home will have to have 3 phase power installed.

One thing the greenies do not talk about is that the Lithium battery industry is one of the filthiest polluting industries about.

Greystone · Senior Member

The EV train has left the station. It's not turning back, so get used to it. It will be the future means of road transport whether you like it or not. Engineers are already looking at electric planes! http://theconversation.com/get-set-for-take-off-in-electric-aircraft-the-next-transport-disruption-114178

Wanda · Guru

Knight wrote "When considering "fuel" the batteries pack energy source is a fuel cost because in about 8 years that will need replacement, around $15,000 including labour. "......RUBBISH.
We have a 2007 Prius, thats 12yrs old, batteries going good as new. If and when batteries play up, the battery is made up of individual cells(not sure how many) that can be replaced seperately, I know my brotherinlaw did it on his 2003 prius, after 15yrs(only had to replace 2 of the cells). Purchased second hand battery from wrecker for $600 and only used 2 of, I think, 6 cells.
I think the Prius has been around since about 2002, I have no doubt "some" of these older ones have complete or part new batteries, BUT, i bet there are a lot around still on the original battery.
Please get your facts in order before posting.
regards
Ian

rockylizard · Guru

Umpie1 wrote:
OK so it can tow a little caravan on the flat. I doubt that it would tow my 21ft Jayco Sterling especially on the hills.

Gday...

The Tesla reviewed has a braked towed rating of 2,250KG - towed the Avida at 1,746Kg - from Penrith to Bathurst and return ... hardly "on the flat".

Obviously, it would not, neither was it designed to, tow your 21ft Jayco. hmm

However, this may better meet your need for the 21ft Jayco - https://www.caradvice.com.au/706885/rivian-r1t-electric-ute-unveiled/

Think back even only five years - electric vehicles have developed considerably ... what will the next 10 years bring.

Cheers - John

blaze · Guru

maybe all the folks that don't like ev's should unplug there computers, bin the mobile and hitch up the horse and cart. take at look at what you use in your day to day lifes, electric blowers, chainsaws and tools, that will never happen. the world is moving on for better or worst, jump on the ride
cheers
blaze

Knight · Senior Member

blaze wrote:
maybe all the folks that don't like ev's should unplug there computers, bin the mobile and hitch up the horse and cart. take at look at what you use in your day to day lifes, electric blowers, chainsaws and tools, that will never happen. the world is moving on for better or worst, jump on the ride
cheers
blaze

I don't believe that most people are opposed to electric vehicles replacing internal combustion engine vehicles however to be setting targets and planning emissions based penalties and costs to effectively encourage a transition is unsatisfactory.

Free market capitalism has worked exceptionally well in creating the living conditions and benefits of economic prosperity we enjoy that attracted the Communist China Government to adopt it, and Russia did as well, and other previously tightly controlled and managed by bureaucrats states. They noted the wealth and prosperity of countries, notably the United States of America. My point is that a transition to electric vehicles should be based on consumer's choice with no or little government interference.

I can see good reasons for EV replacing ICEV but there are still many obstacles to overcome, not least being cheap and reliable electricity grid baseload and peak demand reserve generating capacity. Even with 25% EV cars and utes there would be a significant increase in the demand for grid energy at a time when the power stations are not being planned for replacement and instead a patchwork system of wind and solar backed up by "firming" or back up generators, battery, inefficient pumped hydro is being created.

Also, until our electricity grid is energised with no emissions EV cannot lower emissions by replacing ICEV. Today the world's largest interconnected electricity grid is energised by coal fired, gas fired and diesel powered generators for about 85%. Then hydro and last wind and solar much less than hydro. Yet electricity pricing is across all sources via the AEMO.

EV distributors need to offer us prices equivalent to ICEV including the recharging equipment and registered on the road. They must offer equivalent travel distance between refuelling/recharging and time taken to obtain a 100% result about the same time. In other words easy to use and no range anxiety for drivers. And of course recharging stations as convenient and many as we have for ICEV now.

And ICEV must not be forced off the road and resale value drop to scrap value. We also need to know up front what the road usage charge would be to replace fuel tax revenue for government.

The transition to renewable energy as the politicians call it has resulted in ever increasing electricity pricing with related businesses given government support including penalising fossil fuel power stations. It has changed our electricity supply from very reliable and relatively cheap by world standards to unstable in peak demand periods and among world's highest pricing. South Australia has the highest pricing in Australia and they led the transition.

In my opinion to no longer be dependent on imported oil and fuel would be a good thing, as would EV with apparently lower running costs and far less time off road for servicing. But the evolution has far to go with Australia behind EU countries already. On the other hand the number of EV sold to date is a tiny fraction compared to ICEV sales. The truth is that most motorists remain unimpressed with the down side of EV and poor value for money.

We need nuclear emissions free power stations, we do not have the water resources for enough hydro to provide essential baseload grid energy, before the EV transition is viable. A recent US Report on renewable energy explains that with the existing technology it is not possible, I will provide a link.

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/green-energy-revolution-near-impossible

-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 24th of April 2019 09:51:30 AM

Umpie1 · Senior Member

rockylizard, you obviously did not read the meat of my post. I referred to the costs for going to 50% electric cars by 2030. No politician has yet put a figure on the cost of going to this extent. People may say that they are prepared to pay extra for renewable power/electric cars, but how much extra are they willing to pay for this. Don't forget that all this renewable/electric cars are made with power produced by -- you've guessed it -- Coal fired power stations.

The cost of going to this stage is in the billions of dollars especially when you take into account how vast Australia is. Someone has to pay for it. Dare I say that it will be us poor taxpayers or will the :top end of town: be expected to put up the $$'s?

I am not against electric cars but there needs to be reasoned debate about how we are going to achieve this outcome

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

I actually did read the 'meat' of your post Umpie - but I was commenting on your opening comment in that post.

This, and other, threads are drawing out 'reasoned debate' - consistently considered opinion as stated by Dennis.

All quite valid. However, think back even a short five years - there has been considerable development in 'new technology'.

Whether the existing 'grid' can cope with re-charging EVs or how to apply the new 'fuel tax' issues etc etc etc are matters that will evolve and ultimately change.

Cheers - John

Knight · Senior Member

Umpie1 wrote:
rockylizard, you obviously did not read the meat of my post. I referred to the costs for going to 50% electric cars by 2030. No politician has yet put a figure on the cost of going to this extent. People may say that they are prepared to pay extra for renewable power/electric cars, but how much extra are they willing to pay for this. Don't forget that all this renewable/electric cars are made with power produced by -- you've guessed it -- Coal fired power stations.

The cost of going to this stage is in the billions of dollars especially when you take into account how vast Australia is. Someone has to pay for it. Dare I say that it will be us poor taxpayers or will the :top end of town: be expected to put up the $$'s?

I am not against electric cars but there needs to be reasoned debate about how we are going to achieve this outcome

Absolutely right Umpie1.

An example of cost to the people is what was referred to as "gold plated poles and wires", in other words feeder transmission lines from wind and solar farms to the main electricity grid which the power stations are built alongside. Despite those "farms" being private sector businesses for profit consumers effectively paid for the transmission lines via electricity bills.

No doubt the same shareholders, merchant bankers for example, will cash in on the EV transition and we will pay for the assets they create income from, by order the governments.

Unless free market capitalism is allowed to work with consumers picking the winners and losers on merit.

Knight · Senior Member

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
I actually did read the 'meat' of your post Umpie - but I was commenting on your opening comment in that post.
This, and other, threads are drawing out 'reasoned debate' - consistently considered opinion as stated by Dennis.
All quite valid. However, think back even a short five years - there has been considerable development in 'new technology'.
Whether the existing 'grid' can cope with re-charging EVs or how to apply the new 'fuel tax' issues etc etc etc are matters that will evolve and ultimately change.
Cheers - John

Indeed John, the situation will evolve and ultimately change.

In between times allow the market to decide after the businesses offer us good reason to consider their products, not politicians pushing on their behalf.

Jaahn · Guru

Knight wrote:
Umpie1 wrote:
rockylizard, you obviously did not read the meat of my post. I referred to the costs for going to 50% electric cars by 2030. No politician has yet put a figure on the cost of going to this extent. People may say that they are prepared to pay extra for renewable power/electric cars, but how much extra are they willing to pay for this. Don't forget that all this renewable/electric cars are made with power produced by -- you've guessed it -- Coal fired power stations.

The cost of going to this stage is in the billions of dollars especially when you take into account how vast Australia is. Someone has to pay for it. Dare I say that it will be us poor taxpayers or will the :top end of town: be expected to put up the $$'s?

I am not against electric cars but there needs to be reasoned debate about how we are going to achieve this outcome
Absolutely right Umpie1.
An example of cost to the people is what was referred to as "gold plated poles and wires", in other words feeder transmission lines from wind and solar farms to the main electricity grid which the power stations are built alongside. Despite those "farms" being private sector businesses for profit consumers effectively paid for the transmission lines via electricity bills.
No doubt the same shareholders, merchant bankers for example, will cash in on the EV transition and we will pay for the assets they create income from, by order the governments.
Unless free market capitalism is allowed to work with consumers picking the winners and losers on merit.

Hmm Knight smile

In my following of the Gold Plating I never saw it implied that it was the feeder lines from wind and solar farms?? Where did you get that from or was it just your biased opinion.

Here is a report on the court case about the rorting that the free market privatised energy businesses did to make even more money from the punters. What a great idea that was furious

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/may/26/gold-plating-nsws-skewed-electricity-market-and-the-fight-over-rising-bills

Jaahn

dabbler · Guru

Many consumers are after EV for the lower cost of ownership. Manufacturers are responding to market demand, whether purely $ or purely environmentally driven or somewhere in between. As for revenues from fuel taxes, they have been dropping for some time due to improvements in fuel economy (govt figures indicate about 40 drop since GST was introduced). Our govt needs to acknowledge that the fleet is changing and the country needs to plan accordingly.

Knight · Senior Member

Here you are Jaahn ... not my "biased opinion", I deal in facts and engineering know how.

www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/gillard-once-backed-this-investment-in-poles-and-wires--for-a-good-reason/news-story/e5acb183dee653444c14fc3ddc1e1c8c

and

https://www.theherald.com.au/story/1407342/opinion-solar-and-wind-energy-not-reliable-enough/

-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 24th of April 2019 12:48:27 PM

-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 24th of April 2019 12:49:35 PM

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Dennis and John, so it is opinionated articles at 20 paces at dawn

Media and internet ... one does not need so seek or look too deeply to find 'informed' articles to bolster/prove one's own opinion.

Cheers - John

Knight · Senior Member

Wanda wrote:
Knight wrote "When considering "fuel" the batteries pack energy source is a fuel cost because in about 8 years that will need replacement, around $15,000 including labour. "......RUBBISH.
We have a 2007 Prius, thats 12yrs old, batteries going good as new. If and when batteries play up, the battery is made up of individual cells(not sure how many) that can be replaced seperately, I know my brotherinlaw did it on his 2003 prius, after 15yrs(only had to replace 2 of the cells). Purchased second hand battery from wrecker for $600 and only used 2 of, I think, 6 cells.
I think the Prius has been around since about 2002, I have no doubt "some" of these older ones have complete or part new batteries, BUT, i bet there are a lot around still on the original battery.
Please get your facts in order before posting.
regards
Ian

Wanda for your information the Prius is a hybrid, meaning a petrol engine powered generator on board and small battery pack that provides about 25 km on full charge. When the battery energy level is below a certain level the generator starts and recharges the battery pack. When more power is needed the generator takes over to boost the amount of energy to drive the electric motors.

An Electric Vehicle is pure electric with much larger battery pack and no generator on board.

I can assure you that Prius battery pack is replaced in similar periods to an EV battery pack. Battery packs lose energy holding capacity over time, they deteriorate based on charging rate (slower is better) etc.

I won't ask you the same question regarding "facts".

"To answer the first one, John Hanson, Toyota's National Manager, Environmental, Safety & Quality Communications, responds:

"The battery pack in any hybrid Toyota is warranted either for 10 years or 150,000 miles (in states with California emissions laws) or 8 years or 100,000 miles in all other states."

And, he adds, "There's no pro-rating at all. The battery will be replaced at no cost if necessary during the warranty period."

As for the effect on used Prius prices, there doesn't appear to be a discount for older Priuses based on concerns about the life of the rechargeable battery pack.

Indeed, Toyota says the battery pack is one of the least-frequently replaced items across all Prius models. And some proportion of the packs it has to replace haven't failed, but were damaged in collisions or other accidents."

-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 24th of April 2019 01:08:59 PM

-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 24th of April 2019 01:12:56 PM

Whenarewethere · Guru

There will be a lot less tankers.

Wanda · Guru

Lots of "my dicks bigger than yours" on here, really some people want to live in the past.

Ian

Whenarewethere · Guru

We are not even towing & our last trip around half of Australia we spent $3200 on fuel. An additional air filter. A full service before & as soon as we got back as we were well over the service distance.

It makes an electric car look very economical, even factoring in a future road usage tax.

There are some issues but these will be solved as quick as digital cameras replaced film cameras. I doubt there are many here still using film on a regular basis!