Towing A Caravan With An Electric Vehicle

Jaahn · Guru

RE: Towing A Caravan With An Electric Vehicle

Knight · Senior Member

Jaahn wrote:
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
My new vehicle (if the price came down) - mr4x4.com.au/rivian-r1t-electric-ute-unveiled/
Hi
On one hand you can look at this type of thing and say I would like that if it was cheaper and it worked for me
On the other hand here are 50 stats that says it will not work and the manufacturers always over state the specs anyway.
I wonder which way Mark Suberberg or Bill Gates looked at their initial toys ??
Jaahn

If the price was comparable to an equivalent internal combustion engine utility truck plus recharging time not longer than 15 minutes with a range of 800 to 1,000 km batteries pack as new, theoretical or engineering design calculation, of an empty vehicle range I would definitely consider buying one.

But not until recharging stations are in as many locations as petrol/diesel stations with enough charge points to cope with peak hour and holiday traffic demand. In other words when I can changeover and not be penalised by cost and convenience factors.

Of course people who only drive in the cities and suburbs would not need that range.

-- Edited by Knight on Friday 5th of April 2019 10:05:29 AM

Eaglemax · Guru

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Greystone · Senior Member

We have had a Nissan Leaf EV for 3 years now. It is our daily runabout around town and despite its limited range of 120 km it is adequate for 90% of our use. We charge solely from our solar panels and house battery system. No grid charge ever. Servicing requires topping up windscreen washer fluid and checking tyres and brakes. We use an app to monitor the battery status. There are no other maintenance requirements. For the other 10% we have an Amarok. It is our tourer and it is specifically setup for long distance traveling. It's last scheduled service cost me $600. It is the last fossil fuel car we bought, our future tourer will be an EV.

Knight · Senior Member

Greystone wrote:
We have had a Nissan Leaf EV for 3 years now. It is our daily runabout around town and despite its limited range of 120 km it is adequate for 90% of our use. We charge solely from our solar panels and house battery system. No grid charge ever. Servicing requires topping up windscreen washer fluid and checking tyres and brakes. We use an app to monitor the battery status. There are no other maintenance requirements. For the other 10% we have an Amarok. It is our tourer and it is specifically setup for long distance traveling. It's last scheduled service cost me $600. It is the last fossil fuel car we bought, our future tourer will be an EV.

Three years ownership, do you know the present batteries pack capacity as compared to when it was first registered?

I live in a coastal town and could not cope with 120 km range. The new Nissan Leaf apparently offers more but will have a retail price tag of over $50,000.00

After posting the above I found this information:-

Testing on the NiMH Electric Car battery life was done by the Southern California Edison, Electric Vehicle Technical Center(pdf). They state that the likely hood of your typical electric car cell battery life to be anywhere in the 130,000 to 150,000 mile range. Considering you dont have to perform regular maintenance like oil and air filter changes, over the life of the vehicle the cost of replacing the battery would be far under gas engine maintenance costs.

Cost Of Replacing Electric Car Batteries

The cost of replacing the battery in a Toyota Rav 4 EV, in the example above, may be the exception to the maintenance cost comparison rule. Recent figures put the RAV 4 EV NiMH battery replacement cost at $14,000. This would be for a custom pack that would provide 2000 usable cycles, compared to 1000, which translates into about 8 years of normal driving. The NiMH for this particular vehicle seems high, but smaller vehicles like the new Toyota Prius have battery replacement costs of uner $3,000.

US$

-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 6th of April 2019 07:50:25 AM

-- Edited by Knight on Saturday 6th of April 2019 07:51:27 AM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

So $4k AU would be about the price for engine rebuild? Compared to piston engine . With no running in issues . I just think when it comes to heavy towing ? EV looses . But then again the van could have its own batteries and motor to drive and generate power also ?

roker · Veteran Member

blankstare hi Warren.Pat. Good Reply.

E,V. vehicles ok for city Still have my Nissan Patrol and off road camper trailer gets me where a want to go too .

take care blankstare

Dick0 · Guru

Knight wrote:
I found an interesting article regarding EV verses petrol ...

seekingalpha.com/article/4160351-tesla-model-3-costs-charge-gasoline-car

My God! Seriously!

Remember the Rotary Engine Revolution? How did that go?

Lets concentrate on anti-gravity...more chance of achievement than EV...lol.

Greystone · Senior Member

https://products.rivian.com This vehicle would be more than capable to tow any van.

Dick0 · Guru

Greystone wrote:
https://products.rivian.com This vehicle would be more than capable to tow any van.

Is it a dream or just a nightmare?

Lets read the specs (not available) about towing 3T and the distance towed...And the charge costs and charge duration.

I would say half your day will be towing and then the remainder will be recharge...somewhere there you will need to find time for leisure and sleep.

Keep dreaming folks!

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Here ya go Dick0 ... has possibilities I reckon ...

https://www.caradvice.com.au/706885/rivian-r1t-electric-ute-unveiled/

https://www.drivezero.com.au/cars/lets-get-electric-ute-australia-asap-rivian-needs-launch/

http://www.dieselnews.com.au/all-electric-full-size-ute-launch/

It really depends on how long it takes the powers that be to get their act together and get re-charging stations spread across our great, wide, exciting land.

We are a very long way behind the rest of the world -

EV Charge 01.jpg Ev Charge 02.jpg

EV charge 03.png

EV charge 04.jpg

EV charge 05.jpg

Cheers - John

Jaahn · Guru

Hi smile

Australia is a lot better than your map. The Tesla Owners Club of Australia (TOCA) released its Round Australia Electric Highway map.

Or look at ;https://www.plugshare.com/ and go to Oceania. Most up to date information probably.

jaahn

EV charging station map of Australia

-- Edited by Jaahn on Tuesday 9th of April 2019 10:04:17 PM

-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 10th of April 2019 08:36:02 AM

Craig1 · Guru

I still cannot see where all the spare electricity will come from to charge these Ev's. It appears that Bill will have us charge a battery from a battery somehow. There are no true facts about battery manufacture, it's life span, how we dispose of same when dead, no disputing that a battery has a limited lifespan. it is not the 3-500,000 km of many Nissan and Toyota. The sun does not shine always , the wind does not often blow. According to Andrew Bolt we have wasted many millions on wave charge, deep earth hot rocks, salt heating, the "2km high solar funnel" etc.
I wish my dad had not sold my 1953 pedal car.

Greystone · Senior Member

Andrew Bolt????????????

Greystone · Senior Member

This is a better analysis. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/09/electric-cars-separating-the-facts-from-the-propaganda?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Gmail

Greystone · Senior Member

I believe that the EV train has left the station. In Australia we've lost the opportunity to be at the front of these new developments when it was presented to us after the demise of the ICE industries. We had the resources and skills to do it, but alas. Now we'll be led by Europe and Asia. Initially we will be the dumping ground for old technology that has no market elsewhere such as vehicles that don't meet the emission standards in Europe. Then we'll only have a limited choice of newer, cleaner vehicles including EVs because we don't have the infrastructure to support competition. For example, in Japan and Europe we could replace our old Leaf battery for a new one with greater capacity at less than half the price in Australia. Reason is that there are only around 400 Leafs in Australia. Not a profitable market to keep spare parts and offer services! And if you think you could continue to drive your diesel powered Nissan or Toyota into the sunset, keep dreaming. Some manufacturers have already announced that they will stop producing ICE vehicles or at least reduce their ICE vehicle offerings in the next decade. So again, choice of ICE vehicles will become limited and spare parts for the old clunkers will become scarce. Overall this means we'll have to pay more. And finally, car manufacturers will develop their cars aimed at the much larger European and Asian markets which have totally different requirements than the Australian market. For example, they don't have to drive 300+ km to the next fuel station. So a range of 400 to 500 km is more than adequate for those markets. So unless we start developing the infrastructure to support future vehicles with that sort of range now, we will be unable to explore our beautiful country the way we used to do. So perhaps we are the last grey nomads.

Jaahn · Guru

Greystone wrote:
Andrew Bolt????????????

Yes the expert on all things

Greystone writes truthfully IMHO. We are so poorly served by our leaders we will miss the boat. You only have to see the level of the 'discussion' currently being used for the phoney election campaign. There are lots of important things to look at and areas that should need investment but the PM and his side kicks are just treating the electric discussion like a couple of kids.

The discussion here shows just how one eyed people can be and not prepared to enter into real discussion on a future issue of importance. In some years time the GN will say gee I did not see that coming. disbelief Well I hope they are sitting comfortably with their happy hour drinks close to a town then.

Jaahn

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

I an fully understand we in Straya are very aware of the huge distances that make up our great, wide brown land.

However, I think we are sometimes a little short-sighted.

I take this earlier statement - "European and Asian markets which have totally different requirements than the Australian market. For example, they don't have to drive 300+ km to the next fuel station. So a range of 400 to 500 km is more than adequate for those markets."

I have been travelling full-time for ten years now and my average, when towing, is 400Km out of a tank full of fuel - on a good day praps 550Km - but I consider 400Km my 'average' and I plan my journey around those sort of fuel stops. I have never had the need to carry any fuel in jerry cans etc as long as I stay on the blacktop.

I spend most of my time with the van on sealed roads and the furthest I have had to travel between fuel pumps was 360Km between Winton and Boulia. Even across the Nullarbor fuel pumps are all less than 200Km apart. Forget about price/litre - only talking about availability.

Agreed the time to refill (recharge) might be offputting right now but the technology is coming ahead quickly. Re-charge times are falling every year as advances are made.

Europe, America, China are very well advanced in the production of electric vehicles and in providing adequate re-charge stations. We are so far off the technology in Straya we are now quite disadvantaged. Apart from the inaction of our politicians ... the blinkered views of the general public are our biggest hurdles.

Cheers - John

Tony Bev · Guru

The below post is only my opinion

Like everyone else I am not sure if an electric towing/motorhome vehicle will be suitable for me, due to future unknown financial restraints

I shall certainly crunch the cost numbers, when something becomes available in the future

I believe that change is coming for the electric vehicle movement, regardless of :-

Cost
Political future vote statements from our pollies
Our own perception of what we personally want/require

We have all seen the pictures of smog, in some of the major cities of the world, (some of the smog due to vehicle exhaust gasses)
I believe that those areas will probably be the first to embrace, the electric car in large numbers
Hopefully producing electric vehicles in volume, will bring the cost down, or assist in a breakthrough of battery technology

A lot of car manufactures now have electric vehicles on their drawing boards
For me the jury is still out

If the car manufactures think/know, about a future battery breakthrough
Can see a consumer demand/trend towards electric vehicles
Just want to be ready to produce an electric vehicle, in case they get left behind

I also think that perhaps, because of our travelling distances, it will be hard, (but not impossible) to design a vehicle suitable to tow a caravan, long distance
I am thinking along the lines of a Tesla Semi, towing a caravan/fifth wheeler of around 3000 kilograms, or perhaps a motorhome body on its chassis

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

All valid points Tony. However, did you read either of the three sites I put up earlier?

If you missed reading them, have a read of this site - https://www.caradvice.com.au/706885/rivian-r1t-electric-ute-unveiled/

Three battery packs will offered with the R1T, with the 105kWh model promising a range of over 370km, the 135kWh version good for over 480km, and the top-shelf 180kWh model good for around 650km. The R1T has payload rating of 800kg, can tow up to 5000kg. R1T production (will begin) with the more expensive 135kWh and 180kWh models. The entry-level model is priced from US$69,000 (AU$95,000).

Some figures from around the world -

EV Vehicles 01.JPG

EV Vehicles 02.JPG

Straya is simply way behind the rest of the world. Quite probably many (most?) on this forum, due to our age, will not have to ditch their existing internal combustion vehicle. However, the next generation of "grey nomad" will probably have a different driving/towing configuration.

Cheers - John

Tony Bev · Guru

I did read the articles, John
I found them very informative, so thanks for that

I did pick up on the Rivian R1T electric ute, that will be available, (in the USA), late 2020 early 2021

I also seem to think, (only going from memory), that the manufactors range claim, is always more than what the real world figure will be
Perhaps due to test conditions not having many hills, headwind, lead foot drivers, extra passangers, weight in boot, etc

I also support, whether it is realistic or not, the very recent statement from a pollie, to build an electric car manufacturing plant, in Australia

I was thinking, (perhaps outside the square), that of all the future electric vehicles, within the pipeline, I know of, suitable for towing a caravan
The Tesla Semi is perhaps the only one large enough, to carry its own set of spare batteries, for travelling long distances

I doubt, (without government encouragement), if the (today) servos/caravan parks on the Nullarbor, would have enough capacity to charge more than a few normal electric vehicles, at the same time
I therefore believe, rightly or wrongly, that in order to tow a caravan, as we normally do now, we are going to need a breakthrough in battery range
Or a means to switch over to spare batteries, or to charge up our own electric vehicle, while parked up, using solar/wind etc

Hopefully, within my time, I will see a shift towards electric vehicles in Australia, within the built up areas

As you say, and I do agree that we Australians, are lagging behind other countries, in the electric vehicle department

dabbler · Guru

EV charging regimes and locations require a different mindset/paradigm to refueling with fossil fuels. There is no need to have a single location where everyone refuels and no need for an energy distribution network. Recharge stations can be a variety of outlets power by solar panel arrays at the same site. Fuel Cell (FCEV) requires high pressure storage of (most likely) hydrogen and this would be centralized in some way. Profit on recharge and refill is likely to be low too and that means a new retail model. The USA has quickly fallen behind in FCEV refill availability. We are the the mercy of the cae manufacturers and they are actively shifting to EV and FCEV models. They already have more EV models than Australia is ready to receive.

Greystone · Senior Member

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
I an fully understand we in Straya are very aware of the huge distances that make up our great, wide brown land.
However, I think we are sometimes a little short-sighted.
I take this earlier statement - "European and Asian markets which have totally different requirements than the Australian market. For example, they don't have to drive 300+ km to the next fuel station. So a range of 400 to 500 km is more than adequate for those markets."
I have been travelling full-time for ten years now and my average, when towing, is 400Km out of a tank full of fuel - on a good day praps 550Km - but I consider 400Km my 'average' and I plan my journey around those sort of fuel stops. I have never had the need to carry any fuel in jerry cans etc as long as I stay on the blacktop.
I spend most of my time with the van on sealed roads and the furthest I have had to travel between fuel pumps was 360Km between Winton and Boulia. Even across the Nullarbor fuel pumps are all less than 200Km apart. Forget about price/litre - only talking about availability.
Agreed the time to refill (recharge) might be offputting right now but the technology is coming ahead quickly. Re-charge times are falling every year as advances are made.
Europe, America, China are very well advanced in the production of electric vehicles and in providing adequate re-charge stations. We are so far off the technology in Straya we are now quite disadvantaged. Apart from the inaction of our politicians ... the blinkered views of the general public are our biggest hurdles.
Cheers - John

You will find that the quoted range of EVs are the maximum range when driving with no load and definitely not towing. I reckon that with towing the range would drop by a third, maybe even half.

Greystone · Senior Member

dabbler wrote:
EV charging regimes and locations require a different mindset/paradigm to refueling with fossil fuels. There is no need to have a single location where everyone refuels and no need for an energy distribution network. Recharge stations can be a variety of outlets power by solar panel arrays at the same site. Fuel Cell (FCEV) requires high pressure storage of (most likely) hydrogen and this would be centralized in some way. Profit on recharge and refill is likely to be low too and that means a new retail model. The USA has quickly fallen behind in FCEV refill availability. We are the the mercy of the cae manufacturers and they are actively shifting to EV and FCEV models. They already have more EV models than Australia is ready to receive.

You are right.

The new batteries are grid interactive which means you can use them as a house battery during peak hours providing power to your home or the grid. Recharging could take place during off peak periods.

You can charge EV batteries with standard 10 amp power points, 15 amp power points and fast charging using 3 phase power. We charge the Leaf with a 15 amp power point connected to our house batteries and PV solar system. Works a treat. Unfortunately our Leaf battery is an old one which is not grid interactive.

Tony Bev · Guru

It looks like I may have egg on my face again

disbelief It is probably a good job, I can laugh at myself, and like a good toasted egg and bacon sandwich

A snip from one of my posts above

I do agree that we Australians, are lagging behind other countries, in the electric vehicle department

It appears that there may be a forward thinking person, in Australia
The Government is going to have a "Battery Research Center" in Western Australia

Below is the link

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/new-$135m-lithium-battery-research-centre-for-wa/10990222

For those who do not like to click on links

Below is a snip from the article

the cooperative research centre was about lifting Australia's role in the battery value chain
We are clearly not just digging these minerals out of the earth, she said.
We will be extracting, processing and looking at the technology to develop the components to go into energy storage systems

-- Edited by Tony Bev on Thursday 11th of April 2019 01:30:22 PM

Dick0 · Guru

Was in the US last September travelling between Las Vegas and Grand Canyon.

Pulled up for lunch at a Diner located close by to an EV charge station. Lady pulled up in her EV at the same time to re-charge.

About an hour later left the Diner and walked past her vehicle. From curiosity I asked how long does the recharge take.

Her reply was, to get to the next destination (?) she will need to recharge for at least a further 1 hour. (2 hours in total).

ARE YOU PREPARED TO SPEND THIS AMOUNT OF TIME CHARGING YOUR EV WHILST TRAVELLING?

shanem · Veteran Member

hey there. couple of points. progress is always going forward, not backward - so no doubt ev will happen. also, btw, there has never been a communist society in actual fact - Russia and China are dictatorships at their core - go read the 'Communist Manifesto' and you'll see it actually describes a genuine democracy (ie, one where each individual vote actually counts equally, without the trappings of vested interest groups, which in most so-called democracies of today disproportionately influence political decisions very often against the interests of the general pubic). cheers, Shane