Knight wrote:

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The website JoNova is primarily a science and engineering based website, the latest EV article is interesting but please read the comments too, most contributors are professionals in their fields and informative;

joannenova.com.au/2019/04/labor-cars-plan-means-higher-emissions-more-pollution-more-coal-use-threatens-grid/

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Hi 

It is hard to move forward if you take an instant negative view. Made worse by going to forums and sites which reinforce your entrenched views. 

Better to read and consider challenging views which make you think outside the box. Most progressive ideas come from people who do not think along the same old lines as have always been done IMHO.

Jaahn    

Hmmm generator ? Lol

Jaahn wrote:

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Knight wrote:

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The website JoNova is primarily a science and engineering based website, the latest EV article is interesting but please read the comments too, most contributors are professionals in their fields and informative;

joannenova.com.au/2019/04/labor-cars-plan-means-higher-emissions-more-pollution-more-coal-use-threatens-grid/

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Hi 

It is hard to move forward if you take an instant negative view. Made worse by going to forums and sites which reinforce your entrenched views. 

Better to read and consider challenging views which make you think outside the box. Most progressive ideas come from people who do not think along the same old lines as have always been done IMHO.

Jaahn    

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 Hello Jaahn

Technical facts are not an instant negative view, the engineers I know carefully consider the subject and related factors. I am not opposed to any new technology but the fact remains that as offered now they are too expensive, inconvenient in terms of time needed to recharge and when all cost factors are accounted not good value for money when compared to internal combustion engines.

The typical lower price range EV is a small car class but the showroom price is double or more than double an equivalent petrol car with 4 to 5 seats. 

When comparing running costs the EV electricity cost compared to petrol cost must include the vehicle cost differential and battery replacement cost. In other words the payback of overall cost including premium price for vehicle compared to the petrol vehicle.

Also, fuel tax is a significant revenue source for the government, can there be any doubt that if EV replaced the ICEV fleet or even in part that an EV recharge tax would be levied?

In short, no doubt people commuting in suburban areas will choose to buy EV but without being forced by government regulations and penalising internal combustion engine vehicles I doubt that the majority of people would be prepared to pay the premium cost and put up with the handicaps of recharging times, range (real range not manufacturer's estimated range) and lack of recharging stations. 

As Australia has committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions (carbon dioxide is not carbon or pollution) and met all of the Kyoto Agreement requirements. The government claims that the Paris Agreement target is on track to be met. There is not justification for forced changeover from liquid fuel engines to electric motors which, if proceeded with, would cost the people and the economy a huge amount of money and inconvenience. Our present vehicle resale value scrap value only one example at an individual level.

However, if EV was competitively priced and as easy to operate as conventional vehicles I would certainly seriously consider buying. At this stage they are not. Also, countries including Communist China and Russia have adopted capitalism because they realised capitalism is the foundation for the improvements in human life span, prosperity and related wealth creation. It's not perfect because human nature sometimes results in excesses, profiteering. But governments should not interfere, free market capitalism relies on the market/consumers to pick and choose winners and losers. There should be no subsidies or penalties dictated by governments.

-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 3rd of April 2019 06:58:54 AM

-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 3rd of April 2019 07:00:27 AM

There has been much hype about electric cars - towing or not, they are of limited value for Australia as a whole.

Getting back to simple physics, if you want to move a vehicle weighing about 1 tonne (most cars these days are nearer 2 tonnes) a certain distance, you need a certain amount of energy. Batteries are good for storing energy, but the amount of energy they can store, given space and weight considerations, is very limited. People say that battery technology is advancing, and it is, but the energy density capability of batteries is probably at least an order of magnitude lower than that of liquid fuels. In other words to store a certain amount of electric energy you need at least 10 times the weight of storage of liquid fuels. If you want to increase the range or towing capacity of electric vehicles, you need more batteries and they are incredibly heavy. Yes - you can have more stored energy, but you are then sitting on a huge capacitor or battery, neither of which is really designed to be portable or readily transportable. Personally I don't like the idea of sitting on top of a large battery or capacitor. Petrol and diesel have huge energy capability and are a valuable way to store and deliver energy when required. Yes - they are dangerous if they spill, but over the years we seem to have managed to handle these fuels reasonably safely and efficiently. The only other method of energy storage and delivery is nuclear, but I cannot see that going very far on our roads (or any roads for that matter). And I certainly don;t want to be sitting next to a nuclear reactor.

Lithium batteries have an energy storage capacity of about 250 to 340 Watt-hours per kg. Larger batteries should have a higher energy storage capability. Assume even 400 watt hrs per kg (0.4 kWh per kg). Compare this to diesel fuel which has 27 kWh/kg and you can see that we are a long way off coming near to liquid fuels when considering energy density. You need a lot of kWh to travel 100 km and that means a lot of kg in storage batteries.

There has been a lot of talk about Solar. Solar energy hitting the earth is about 1 kW per square metre. A car roof has maybe 2 square metres, so a solar roof could receive about 2 kW of energy. The best solar panels convert at about 20% efficiency, most are nearer 15% efficiency. So you are looking at 300 to 500 watts from a 2 sq m panel. This is of course when the sun is shining at about midday. To put things into perspective, most car engines produce well over 100 kW of power and the solar roof would put out 0.3 to 0.5 kW.

Now, electric vehicles do have their place in society. Their place is in the cities, where by default people travel slowly and not great distances. Cities are also the place where contamination from vehicles is greatest, so there is a good reason to have electrics in cities. Try travelling 100 km or more each day and the story may be totally different. Charging stations are being established, but they are not the total answer. Home charging an electric car can be done but that takes 8 hours or more, so it is strictly an overnight effort. Even the quick charge stations are talking about 15 minutes minimum and up to an hour to recharge. ho has that sort of time these days, especially in the cities?

Considering transport of goods and produce vast distances in this great country, there is really only one option - liquid fuels.

And as for caravans. towing most caravans will result in at least a 6 L/100 km increase in fuel consumption. This calculates to about 130 kWh of energy per 100 km. You need a lot of battery to do that....

Last year leaving Norseman we were getting 7.8L/100 km with a mild tailwind. At the other end from about halfway through the leg with headwind we were almost 12L/100 km at 95 kph for the whole leg, refilling with our own fuel halfway, then refuelling in Ceduna, & we are not towing. Headwinds are a killer!

The usefulness of device, technology or commodity needs to be considered with every possible use in mind not just YOUR usage. A quick Google search will bring up a number of reports over the last decade by economists, banks, government and the like, that show things like 50% or car km in Oz are driven by 20% of drivers and the average distance driven in Oz is under 24000km (or 66km/day or 96km/weekday only). Drivers of small cars including small soft-roader, average under 12000km/year. Data like this indicate range isn't a limiting factor in EV ownership and dwelling on range is just an excuse really. No one is suggesting EV will replace every fossil fuel option but realistically even current EV models can handle a great deal of the transport needs of Australians.

What a load of tripe...Greenie hallucinations.

Low weight caravan, one hour charge every 200kms, unhitch caravan to charge, lightweight sedan vehicle towing.

Typical European Greenie spin driving through countries smaller than our outback stations.

Just imagine the high voltage infrastructure required to traverse the Continent.

Oh yes...it will all be powered by wind and solar.

Fair Go!!!

PS: Just thinkin' aloud.

Whenarewethere wrote:

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Europe have a high capacity network for their electric trains up to 8000kW locomotives. They are everywhere running so frequently it is hard to get your head around it. If you haven't see the rail system over there it is an eye opener. No reason why we can't do the same for cars.

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The population of the EU is over 500 million (20 times of Australia).

The EU is approximately the land mass of Australia.

The GST (equivalent) is on average twice of Australia.

Of course it is lovely to daydream about eye opening rail systems operated by numerous countries, but at a cost.

Lets get our roads infrastructure in order first, as a priority, so these wonderful and powerful electric sedans towing tandem caravans don't fall apart.

And, over 85% of EU power generation is by Coal, Gas, Oil and Hydro.

 

But, we are going Green,

That will be something to be seen,

When the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow,

The electric car will travel slow!

 

Yes, nice to dream...but I think it ain't gunna 'appen 'ere for generations.

 

Anyone remember the old double Decker trolley buses, they used to run on overhead wires, fast on acceleration and also carry a full busload of people they maybe the go in cites again.
Pomme.

Dick0 wrote:

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Whenarewethere wrote:

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Europe have a high capacity network for their electric trains up to 8000kW locomotives. They are everywhere running so frequently it is hard to get your head around it. If you haven't see the rail system over there it is an eye opener. No reason why we can't do the same for cars.

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The population of the EU is over 500 million (20 times of Australia).

The EU is approximately the land mass of Australia.

The GST (equivalent) is on average twice of Australia.

Of course it is lovely to daydream about eye opening rail systems operated by numerous countries, but at a cost.

Lets get our roads infrastructure in order first, as a priority, so these wonderful and powerful electric sedans towing tandem caravans don't fall apart.

And, over 85% of EU power generation is by Coal, Gas, Oil and Hydro.

 

But, we are going Green,

That will be something to be seen,

When the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow,

The electric car will travel slow!

 

Yes, nice to dream...but I think it ain't gunna 'appen 'ere for generations.

 

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 Australia has about 3 times the road kilometres & 3 times the electrical network per capita compared to Europe. So it's not impossible to upgrade. The real issue is we currently have a complete lack of ideas & forward thinking in this country.

pomme wrote:

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Anyone remember the old double Decker trolley buses, they used to run on overhead wires, fast on acceleration and also carry a full busload of people they maybe the go in cites again.
Pomme.

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 I am also aware of the New York City USA taxi EVs of the late 1800s into early 1900s, recharge points scattered around New York. Very popular for a while, much better than Horse drawn taxis.

And then a bloke named Henry released his Ford Model T and the EV sales collapsed.

Of course the early lead acid battery technology and electric motors technology is far better today, but the Model T advantage of liquid fuel refuelling time and convenience, a couple of 5 gallon cans on the running boards for out of town, and lower price, remains the marketing advantage in 2019.

Knight wrote:

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Are you suggesting that Australian Standards for motor vehicle emissions are not good enough, or that the EU Standard of imported vehicles is not good enough?

Please report this to the Environmental Protection Agency.

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 Q1 No they are not!

 Q2 No they are not!

I have! & the answer is we accept the standard accepted by the country the vehicle is produced in!

We were fumigated by excavation exhaust by 3 excavators. Children live in our building, not ours.... Tuff luck is the polite answer while fumes build up. A dead child might have got something done.

No different to the asbestos battle I had in our street from a Telstra pit that took 2 years to clean up while children played in it. I caught an asbestos inspector by chance, wrong government department as it turned out, I dragging him in under extreme protest to show him the signs we are required to have on our building according to NSW regulations....... & it is ok for children in the street to play in asbestos!?

Government departments pretend to care by ticking boxes but in reality not a lot happens.

G'day chaps,
I had some thoughts about Evs while I was out pulling weeds today. The new "fuel" lithium, is mined in Sth America, China, USA & Australia. Will there be enough for all the battery powered vehicles that "Green" governments think, hope we will buy or coerce us to?

I see on this link electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/ that there is concern about supplies of cobalt being short.

I wonder (perhaps know) that politicians come up with fantastic ideas to save the planet in a few short years without seeing the long term ramifications of those decisions.

Questions that need answers are:-

1) Continued supply of material for battery manufacture?
2) The tourism industry - visiting remote parts of the country & keeping small towns in existence?
3) The caravan industry as we know it - will it be wiped out?
4) Heavy transport is all areas?
5) Transporting livestock in arid areas - what protection will be offered while the batteries are recharged?
6) Safety in the use, servicing of the vehicle - I assume the electric motors are not 12v?
7) Safety of rescue teams if these vehicles are in collisions?
8) Will these vehicles be safe to use on corrugated roads that are so prevalent in the outback? That is if there are enough charging positions!
9) Australia is not like Europe where one can drive 500kms cross three countries. For me to go south, I have to drive 700kms just to reach Rockhampton. My daughter's partner is from Holland - he thinks that we're crazy driving 3,500 kms (one way) to see their family.

I know there has been apprehension in the past when transport methods transitioned - eg from Cobb & Co. coaches to motorised buses, cars; from Steam powered cars (eg the Stanley Steamer that one of my grand fathers had, & the failed Australian Prichard Steamer - based on a Ford Falcon) to petrol vehicles.

So there will be all sorts of arguments thrown around by both sides before these vehicles become practical enough for the general public.

What can we do? Let our politicians, CEOs of motoring organisations know by letter, emails our feelings - bombard them until they answer our needs of the future.

Warren-Pat_01 wrote:

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My new vehicle (if the price came down) - mr4x4.com.au/rivian-r1t-electric-ute-unveiled/

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 Hello Warren

So 370 km maximum range quoted. The batteries pack would for such a large vehicle be much more capacity than for, say, a Tesla S car and they require up to 1 hour on a fast 415 volt charger to achieve 80 per cent recharge, and several hours for 100 per cent. Also, manufacturer specifications must be discounted for real on road conditions: average speed, the faster it is the more energy required so range drops, hills increase energy demand, load carried too, air conditioning on or off, other energy consumers all drain the batteries.

I read that on average discount the theoretical maximum range by 35 per cent. Of course depending on conditions that could rise or fall. As the caravan towing test link above explains.

The price would be high I assume, a Tesla S with about 450 km claimed range costs around $120,000 from memory. So the electric ute would have to be twice that price.

But thank you for the link, interesting.