Vehicle Recalls. Is it due to Robots.

JayDee · Guru

Vehicle Recalls. Is it due to Robots.

Greystone · Senior Member

I reckon it's probably the practice of minimising stock of all the components that make up a car. Suppliers only manufacture and supply the minimum number of parts required for a short period of production run as no one wants to keep large stocks. This means that by the time the quality controllers have discovered a fault, for whatever reason, human or otherwise, the faulty part has already been installed in a vehicle. By the time the car manufacturer decides it's a recall, the faulty parts have been installed in hundreds if not thousands of vehicles. I don't believe it's robots, because they are more reliable than humans. They do what they are programmed to do and they do it without fatigue or getting distracted. However, it could be that they are programmed wrongly, which is a human fault.

Delta18 · Guru

There has been no sudden explosion of recalls, you have just seen more recently because Rocky's penchant for googling has found a new target biggrin .

You can't blame robots as they have been building cars decades, perhaps the designers are having trouble keeping up with the ever increasing complexities of 'stuff'.

There are web pages dedicated to informing us of any recalls, here is one.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls

Happy reading.

palaceboy · Veteran Member

I had my driving test in a brand new French built Simca back in Bletchley MKeynes UK in 1973. Reason I'm mentioning this here is because when it came time to do the Emergency Stop, when the tester hit the dashboard with his clipboard the whole thing fell off into his lap. I stopped the car straight and timely no worries, not too sure how I went on the rest of the test. I think he passed me solely because of that incident though.

That whole car should have been recalled. It was worse than an old Skoda or Lada. Not a robot in sight.

Then there's my old Triumph Herald from back around then as well, every time I stopped hard in that the bonnet would flip forwards and upwards thus totally obscuring all vision.. No Robots again ;)

-- Edited by palaceboy on Saturday 20th of October 2018 10:24:15 AM

rockylizard · Guru

Delta18 wrote:
There has been no sudden explosion of recalls, you have just seen more recently because Rocky's penchant for googling has found a new target .
You can't blame robots as they have been building cars decades, perhaps the designers are having trouble keeping up with the ever increasing complexities of 'stuff'.
There are web pages dedicated to informing us of any recalls, here is one.
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls
Happy reading.

Gday...

For what it is worth it is NOT "Rocky's penchant for googling has found a new target".

Rocky, because he has an interest in all things related to safety with the products we are exposed to through purchase or any other reason has SUBSCRIBED to https://www.productsafety.gov.au/newsletter/subscribe.

I receive email advice of EVERY recall regarding ALL the products that I am interested in.

I then use INTELLIGENCE to determine if there are recalls on products that I (obviously misguidedly) consider would be of interest to those on this forum.

I ensure the subject heading is CLEARLY identifying the vehicle/s (products) that are subject to the recall. SURELY ! ! ! ! ! if people don't own or use, or know anyone who owns or uses, the vehicle/s in the recall posted, then jest use your own intelligence and MOVE ON! !

I even added something so that if someone foolishly opened the recall thread and didn't need the information -

WARNING: this is a recall notice that may have absolutely no bearing on anything you own or use. If the subject heading does not provide a description and information of any product that is one that you own or use, then please ignore this waste of time on my part.

So if these bits of relevant and safety information about vehicles that have been recalled are not wanted then instead of just whinging into your hands take the poll I will put up.

If it is obvious that my posts on recalls are useless and unwanted, then I will discontinue them.

Then everyone who is interested in ensuring they get advice about recalls can subscribe to to the website I have provided above.

Cheers - stay well and happy and safe travelling - John

Jacksa · Veteran Member

I believe recalls are now more exposed due to the high level of technology used in our vehicle. Electronics can screw us around a bit. Just look at your own computer and smartphone. Recalls have made it to be pro-active rather than re-active repairs. Also, then it is free to the owner. Life and our 'toys" are just so much better than 40 years ago.

Don't shoot me!!!

Jacob

The Belmont Bear · Guru

If the number of recalls has increased it's probably due to the complexity of the vehicles, the more things that they put in them the more chance that something can go wrong. In my opinion robots have taken out some of the human error factor as Greystone suggested they don't suffer from fatigue and they can carry out repetitive tasks day in day out without getting bored. Unless you want to pay the same as you would for a handbuilt Rolls Royce then you just have to accept that things will be mass produced on an assembly line and may experience the odd problem. Vehicles that I owned 20 years ago were no more reliable than the vehicles that I have owned since - the key to reliability is in how you operate and service them during their life.

I would also suggest that as safety standards have improved over the years things that were acceptable risks once are are no longer acceptable now.

Cheers
BB

-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Saturday 20th of October 2018 12:36:22 PM

Possum3 · Guru

I have no objection to recalls being posted - If they don't concern me I don't open them.
I believe the amount of recalls is due solely to the cheapening of the product with more and more components supplied by cheapest supplier - If the ACCC had some teeth and enforced the Australian Consumer Law and Mandated Replacement or Refund - the quality would improve.

hako · Guru

For what it's worth, Rockys posting of the recall on Michelin tyres possibly saved my son's life and maybe other road users had one of his faulty Michelin tyres - the son is replacing all 6 tyres (1 delaminated already). Son thought it was due to overloading and was going to just pay for a new one oblivious to the fact the other 5 tyres on his 8 tonne tipper were all suffering from faulty manufacture and were dangerous.
Neither the tyre sellers nor Michelin alerted us to this recall...Rocky did!

Good Luck.

LLD · Guru

Twice I was given the first car of a production line to test out how good and constant the new robots were. Once programmed correctly, Friday & Monday cars are non existent. However get it wrong and all the cars are wrong. Anyway, case one the robot had been given the incorrect torque settings for one side of a V8 engine. The second time, the tyres were all inflated to 65psi. The car was un-driveable. It beggared belief that the vehicle was driven about 2 kms from the end of the production line to where I collected it. Luckily in both cases, the assembly plant were waiting for me feedback.

Computers & Robots don't make mistakes. They only do what is asked of them. The error is generally human. In 35 years in IT, I only encountered one hardware problem that caused issues and that was a corrupt magnetic disk. Fortunately the data was considered important and mirroring saved us.

-- Edited by LLD on Saturday 20th of October 2018 02:48:56 PM

Delta18 · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Delta18 wrote:
There has been no sudden explosion of recalls, you have just seen more recently because Rocky's penchant for googling has found a new target .
You can't blame robots as they have been building cars decades, perhaps the designers are having trouble keeping up with the ever increasing complexities of 'stuff'.
There are web pages dedicated to informing us of any recalls, here is one.
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls
Happy reading.
Gday...
For what it is worth it is NOT "Rocky's penchant for googling has found a new target".
Rocky, because he has an interest in all things related to safety with the products we are exposed to through purchase or any other reason has SUBSCRIBED to https://www.productsafety.gov.au/newsletter/subscribe.
I receive email advice of EVERY recall regarding ALL the products that I am interested in.
I then use INTELLIGENCE to determine if there are recalls on products that I (obviously misguidedly) consider would be of interest to those on this forum.
I ensure the subject heading is CLEARLY identifying the vehicle/s (products) that are subject to the recall. SURELY ! ! ! ! ! if people don't own or use, or know anyone who owns or uses, the vehicle/s in the recall posted, then jest use your own intelligence and MOVE ON! !
I even added something so that if someone foolishly opened the recall thread and didn't need the information -
WARNING: this is a recall notice that may have absolutely no bearing on anything you own or use. If the subject heading does not provide a description and information of any product that is one that you own or use, then please ignore this waste of time on my part.
So if these bits of relevant and safety information about vehicles that have been recalled are not wanted then instead of just whinging into your hands take the poll I will put up.
If it is obvious that my posts on recalls are useless and unwanted, then I will discontinue them.
Then everyone who is interested in ensuring they get advice about recalls can subscribe to to the website I have provided above.
Cheers - stay well and happy and safe travelling - John

If you read my post instead of just crying because your name was mentioned without your expected pat on the back you would have seen that I was not putting you down as you seem to think, just answering JD's question.

I provided a link to show him that there were many recalls and always have been. I also suggested where the problem may stem from.

I never mind when these things are posted as they bring stuff to peoples attention (including mine) that may otherwise be missed.

If you think I am "just whinging into your (my) hands" you are seriously mistaken.

drtooheys · Senior Member

Pardon me for my ignorance, but, isn't this an open forum??

Now assuming it is, I would expect it is quite reasonable for Rocky to post the recalls....it only has to reach the eyes of one person who was unaware of a fault (recall), which could in fact save that person injury or life.

Go for it Rocky, you are doing what most of us are just too lazy to do ourselves!!!

The Belmont Bear · Guru

It is more and more common for the vehicle manufactures to offer you a 3, 5 or even a 7 year warranty and that usually includes the roadside assistance thrown in. What manufacturer even 5 years ago (other than KIA) would have had as much confidence in their product to offer people something like that ? When I bought my first new car way back in the 80s I got a 12/12 warranty and I don't actually recall but considering the quality of the vehicles being built around that time I would have probably had to use it. In my opinion we are not going too bad if the worst thing we have to worry about is an odd recall notice that usually costs you nothing to fix.

BB

The Belmont Bear · Guru

We seem to be at crossed paths here on this thread I thought that we started out by discussing the OPs question about the reasons for an increase in the number of recalls. It seems that it was hijacked along the way into discussing the merit of John posting his recall notices. I thought that this subject was being discussed under the heading of Recalls do we really need to have the same thing going in two different places - I'm lost ?

BB

Sorry 3 different palces there is also the thread with the poll on whether John should keep posting them.......... confuse

-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Saturday 20th of October 2018 04:06:56 PM

Mike Harding · Guru

The Belmont Bear wrote:
In my opinion we are not going too bad if the worst thing we have to worry about is an odd recall notice that usually costs you nothing to fix.

Seven and one half years ago I purchased a four door, 1400cc, new Hyundai Getz for an on-the-road price of $12800. It came with a five year (distance unlimited, I think) warranty.

In that time I did not make a single claim on the warranty. Currently, at 100,000km, the vehicle is on its original tyres (still 20k+left) and brakes. The windscreen wipers were replaced at some point and need to be again now but I think that is all that has been done. Book servicing was complied with.

The motor cars we buy now are amazing pieces of engineering!

Back in the 70s and 80s, I probably spent more time mending my car than driving it. By the 90s I had enough cash to pay someone else to mend it.

I have done some electronic design work for Holden, Toyota and Isuzu and, believe you me, the amount of effort these, and other automotive, companies go to to ensure they produce a quality product is very, very significant.

Automotive is a very demanding product and market just behind military and medical and the fact that a Getz which runs for all this time, fault free, at a retail cost (less gov. fees) of around $11800 is bloody amazing.

We get damn good cars these days at a damn good cost.

Edit: The original battery also needs replacing now - after 7.5 years.

Edit, edit: I guess the Getz is worth around $5k? now - that equates to an annual depreciation of around $1000 - I'm not complaining.

-- Edited by Mike Harding on Saturday 20th of October 2018 04:17:36 PM

-- Edited by Mike Harding on Saturday 20th of October 2018 04:21:17 PM

Craig1 · Guru

Domain today states that " it is not illegal to supply UNSAFE products in Australia" as distinct from UK, EU Canada, Malaysia,and Brazil. The A C C C suggests that we need a General Safety Provision. At the moment importers can take their chances and try to kill, maim or burn us out ( Samsung Washing machines spring to mind). Thanks Rocky

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Mike I have to dis-agree with you that we get dam good cars nowadays. There was nothing wrong with what we had 10 years ago with regard to handling suspension and mechanical longevity, with some exceptions.

What we now have are lots of totally unnecessary electronic gizzmos and "aids to driving", like ESC, reactive breaking. lane control, etc Which was once called driving skill.

We now seem to licence anybody that has a pulse and expect them to be able to drive.

Apart from the recent recalls due to faulty air bag manufacture, almost all other recalls relate to these sort of things which seem to be rushed into production in a competitive market place with too little testing, and I think with a devil may care attitude.

It is only the threat of impending class action lawsuits that has forced the production company's into issuing recalls. This is a result of the current inter connectivity of the internet linking people who have the same gripe about a faulty product. It is now a mass claim instead one person verses a multinational company.

In the old days of faulty manufacture claims it was a case of who had the most money for lawyers, usually not the complainant.

Alan

SouthernComfort · Guru

I have no problem with recalls. If the manufacturers of my cars wish to fix something for me, I consider it a proactive position - better than ignoring a potential problem until it lands me in a mess. The increase in recalls is also due to many more makes/models/variants in our market these days, remember when you could only choose from half a dozen makes offering about 3 variants each?

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

Possum3 wrote:
I have no objection to recalls being posted - If they don't concern me I don't open them.
I believe the amount of recalls is due solely to the cheapening of the product with more and more components supplied by cheapest supplier - If the ACCC had some teeth and enforced the Australian Consumer Law and Mandated Replacement or Refund - the quality would improve.

Could another reason be that cars are not being serviced as often as they were once? Now some cars have service periods of up to 12 months! And a lot of owners ignore the time period ie 10,00kms or 6 months.

Mike Harding · Guru

Brenda and Alan wrote:
What we now have are lots of totally unnecessary electronic gizzmos

You'll not get an argument from me on that score Alan.

Despite (or perhaps because of) having designed some of the electronics which are fitted to modern vehicles I think they have far too much complex electronics in them. There really is a ethos currently of let's add feature X because we can.

The problem with all this stuff is that we increase the number of individual components in a vehicle by magnitudes - a relatively simple circuit board may easily have 100 components on it - a complex one many more.

As many of the electronic modules in a vehicle are essential to its operation there are now a vast number of opportunities for trivial components to fail and they will stop the vehicle as surely as a broken crankshaft. In the city this doesn't matter much, call the RACV and all is well - apart from the cost perhaps. In the bush it's a major crisis if the $0.20 MOSFET driving an injector fails!

The issue is that as consumers we are our own worst enemy. We demand all this crap and then complain when it costs $1500 to replace a windscreen with lane control.

However: having said the above, I'll still argue that today we have the most reliable and cost effective cars since Henry Ford decided to go into business.

2-Smiths · Veteran Member

Mike Harding wrote:
The Belmont Bear wrote:
In my opinion we are not going too bad if the worst thing we have to worry about is an odd recall notice that usually costs you nothing to fix.
Seven and one half years ago I purchased a four door, 1400cc, new Hyundai Getz for an on-the-road price of $12800. It came with a five year (distance unlimited, I think) warranty.
In that time I did not make a single claim on the warranty. Currently, at 100,000km, the vehicle is on its original tyres (still 20k+left) and brakes. The windscreen wipers were replaced at some point and need to be again now but I think that is all that has been done. Book servicing was complied with.
The motor cars we buy now are amazing pieces of engineering!
Back in the 70s and 80s, I probably spent more time mending my car than driving it. By the 90s I had enough cash to pay someone else to mend it.
I have done some electronic design work for Holden, Toyota and Isuzu and, believe you me, the amount of effort these, and other automotive, companies go to to ensure they produce a quality product is very, very significant.
Automotive is a very demanding product and market just behind military and medical and the fact that a Getz which runs for all this time, fault free, at a retail cost (less gov. fees) of around $11800 is bloody amazing.
We get damn good cars these days at a damn good cost.

Edit: The original battery also needs replacing now - after 7.5 years.
Edit, edit: I guess the Getz is worth around $5k? now - that equates to an annual depreciation of around $1000 - I'm not complaining.

-- Edited by Mike Harding on Saturday 20th of October 2018 04:17:36 PM

-- Edited by Mike Harding on Saturday 20th of October 2018 04:21:17 PM

Personally, I'd consider replacing the tyres on that car on an age basis if nothing else.

One of our cars is an old AE112 Corolla hatch (1999 model, last of the Australian-built ones). One of the few Corollas of the era which had dual airbags, ABS braking and most of the mod cons inside (including factory CD stacker).

Great little car. Now has 194000kms on it and does not skip a beat. (We'd have put at least 35,000kms on it in the last 2-odd years alone).

It is, however, VERY well serviced and looked after, as are all our vehicles.

As for recalls, I don't think there were any for that particular era Corolla...but there have been for subsequent ones. It might well be that as they are getting more complex, there is just more "stuff" to go wrong, and hence require recalls to fix...?

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Check some of the faults though ? Some are VERY minor and mainly checked on next service . You wouldnt know . There was a fuel tank earth strap on Tritons . Air bags was pretty big though . Catastrophic iff left .

Mike Harding · Guru

2-Smiths wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Seven and one half years ago I purchased a four door, 1400cc, new Hyundai Getz
Currently, at 100,000km, the vehicle is on its original tyres (still 20k+left)
Personally, I'd consider replacing the tyres on that car on an age basis if nothing else.

Very interesting: at what age do you consider tyres should be automatically replaced and do you have supporting evidence?

rockylizard · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Very interesting: at what age do you consider tyres should be automatically replaced and do you have supporting evidence?

Gday...

Generally, a tyre any older than five years will need replacement. Even if the kilometres travelled are low, or the tyre isnt even being used, it will deteriorate as the rubber loses its suppleness through the drying out of moisture and oils.

This applies to all tyres on the vehicle including the spare.

A tyres age can be identified by reading the build date stamped on the sidewall, usually in the form of a four-digit number representing the week and year of manufacture. Its also worth noting that tyres deteriorate more quickly in hot climates.

https://www.motoring.com.au/tyres-when-should-i-change-my-tyres-35057/

If the tyres haven't been replaced 10 years after their date of manufacture, as a precaution, Michelin recommends replacing them with new tyres. Even if they appear to be in a usable condition and have not been worn down to the tread wear indicator. This applies to spare tyres as well.

https://www.michelin.com.au/tips-and-advice/when-should-i-change-my-car-tyres

Spare tyres that are six years or older should only be used in an emergency. A tyre that is 10 years old should be replaced.

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/how-do-i-know-when-my-car-needs-new-tyres-32135

Cheers - John

Mike Harding · Guru

Well... so toss all tyres out at five years old irrespective of their condition.

That's going to cost $2000 for the 4WD... but hang on... I'm about to buy a tandem axle caravan... so that'll be another $2000....

Well....

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Up to you Mike ... I replace tyres on my vehicle at about 60,000>80,000Km due to wear .. that's about every three to four years.

I replace the tyres on the van every three years irrespective of distance travelled - though that is about 30,000>40,000Km.

S'up to you - Jest sayin' hmm

Cheers - John