Tail Wags Dog, Duel Cab Ute

Bryan · Guru

RE: Tail Wags Dog, Duel Cab Ute

thomas01 · Senior Member

Monty,

Whatever gave you the opinion that I would tow a 3.5t van with a BT50. Many of us know by now how to calculate approximate legal towing capacities of vehicles with various loads in the tug and personally, I would never want to tow anything even close to 3t with any load in a dual cab.

We don't even know what the actual weight of the van or the tug in the story was. Unless the incident was caught on film to be replayed for all to see we will never know the chain of events as they occurred.

Too many assumptions might make a good story, but don't give a factual account of what really happened. It would be good if the driver concerned was a forum member so we could hear his account of what happened and what loads, conditions and other relevant factors were involved.

As for the driver concerned, I am sure he will feel safer towing with the cruiser. I just hope that if this or any similar incident was caused by driver error, and I am not saying that this was, that the drivers learn from it and admit to themselves they made a mistake. They last thing we all need are poor drivers blaming vehicles for their mistakes, then doing the same thing again. As long as the setup of the combo is correct, working properly and driven to the conditions, this type of incident is not an accident, it is an error.

Robert.

-- Edited by thomas01 on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 07:28:45 PM

dogbox · Guru

a lot of time people must read every second line then comment

rockylizard · Guru

Desert Dweller wrote:
We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
SNIP~~~
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend.
The road was dry & his weighs were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
~~~SNIP

Gday...

My oversight earlier makes this seem even more difficult to comprehend.

If the road was NOT a gravel, or loose surface, road then how on earth did a vehicle and van, travelling at or below 70kph, leave the dry but sealed road "in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock". So, assuming the brakes were applied at a "reasonable distance" before the right hand 90deg bend, this required many metres on the dry but sealed road, through a road verge, (a gutter?), a fence and into a paddock. That seems a considerable feat. SOMETHING had failed ... if not a part of the vehicle or van ... then the driver, praps. cry

Call me a fool and hang me on the back fence to dry ... but if the weight of the van, how it was set up, and how the vehicle was loaded and set up has been a relative constant for this traveller, then SURELY there would have been some indication of the shortcomings well before this instance ... at least once surely.

I listed a not exhaustive range of possible contributing factors. Given my oversight, delete the comment about 'loose surface/gravel road'.

To be travelling at 70kph on a dry, sealed road and to have the whole box and dice head straight ahead into the paddock, (which intimates no deviation), through a fence and nearly to a dam indicates that this was more than a "heavier than vehicle' towing situation.

As others have already said, it would be so much better if the bloke who related this tale to DD was able to elaborate directly to this thread so we had some actual detail on the circumstances.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that not a single one of us will ever know what happened, why it happened ... of even IF it happened. We are all "urinating into the wind" so to speak.

PS: I wonder what the statement the "weighs (sic) were all legal" really means.

Jest sayin' hmm

Cheers - John

iana · Guru

Maybe the driver just "Romanced" with the truth a little.

Bryan · Guru

iana wrote:
Maybe the driver just "Romanced" with the truth a little.

Subtly put biggrin biggrin biggrin

Dickodownunder · Guru

Then, on the other hand he may have told the absolute truth. biggrin biggrin

montie · Guru

thomas01 wrote:
Monty,

Whatever gave you the opinion that I would tow a 3.5t van with a BT50. Many of us know by now how to calculate approximate legal towing capacities of vehicles with varies loads in the tug and personally, I would never want to tow anything even close to 3t with any load in a dual cab.

We don't even know what the actual weight of the van or the tug in the story was. Unless the incident was caught on film to be replayed for all to see we will never know the chain of events as they occurred.

Too many assumptions might make a good story, but don't give a factual account of what really happened. It would be good if the driver concerned was a forum member so we could hear his account of what happened and what loads, conditions and other relevant factors were involved.

As for the driver concerned, I am sure he will feel safer towing with the cruiser. I just hope that if this or any similar incident was caused by driver error, and I am not saying that this was, that the drivers learn from it and admit to themselves they made a mistake. They last thing we all need are poor drivers blaming vehicles for their mistakes, then doing the same thing again. As long as the setup of the combo is correct, working properly and driven to the conditions, this type of incident is not an accident, it is an error.

Robert.

Robert,

Thank you for your response.

I didn't have any opinion, I simply asked if you would hook a 3.5 tonne van on the back to which your answer is obviously no and rightly so.

The OP in his second post made reference to the van being heavier than the tug as the probable cause of the accident. I am a firm believer that the tug weight should always exceed that of the van in the interest of safe towing.

As for this particular instance I guess we will never really know with the available facts what actually did cause the accident only to say that tug/van weight ratio was a possible contributor.

Stuart-Jan · Veteran Member

rockylizard wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
SNIP~~~
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend.
The road was dry & his weighs were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
~~~SNIP
Gday...
My oversight earlier makes this seem even more difficult to comprehend.
If the road was NOT a gravel, or loose surface, road then how on earth did a vehicle and van, travelling at or below 70kph, leave the dry but sealed road "in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock". So, assuming the brakes were applied at a "reasonable distance" before the right hand 90deg bend, this required many metres on the dry but sealed road, through a road verge, (a gutter?), a fence and into a paddock. That seems a considerable feat. SOMETHING had failed ... if not a part of the vehicle or van ... then the driver, praps.
Call me a fool and hang me on the back fence to dry ... but if the weight of the van, how it was set up, and how the vehicle was loaded and set up has been a relative constant for this traveller, then SURELY there would have been some indication of the shortcomings well before this instance ... at least once surely.
I listed a not exhaustive range of possible contributing factors. Given my oversight, delete the comment about 'loose surface/gravel road'.
To be travelling at 70kph on a dry, sealed road and to have the whole box and dice head straight ahead into the paddock, (which intimates no deviation), through a fence and nearly to a dam indicates that this was more than a "heavier than vehicle' towing situation.
As others have already said, it would be so much better if the bloke who related this tale to DD was able to elaborate directly to this thread so we had some actual detail on the circumstances.
Anyhow, the bottom line is that not a single one of us will ever know what happened, why it happened ... of even IF it happened. We are all "urinating into the wind" so to speak.
PS: I wonder what the statement the "weighs (sic) were all legal" really means.
Jest sayin'
Cheers - John

I was thinking the same thing except that IMO if the incident happened on a gravel road with a Van / Tug setup that was " all Legal!" And the brakes applied in reasonable time. Even if he had a 3.5 ton van ( what did he have in it ) I cannot imagine that he would carry on in a straight line,off the road, across the verge, and almost into a dam.

I have a late model BT50 dual cab and tow a 21ft caravan. The van weighs nothing like 3.5 ton and on the basis of this story I have no intention of going out & buying a Landcruiser.

montie · Guru

Desert Dweller wrote:
We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
The caravan had a few dents & scratches on it despite it being relatively new.
Asked the guy what happened & he said that he'd just got rid of a late model Mazda BT50 with all the bells & whistles.
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend.
The road was dry & his weighs were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.

Hi Keith and Judy,

Bet you happy you made this post!

It certainly brought the keyboard experts out into the open.

Don't worry about it mate, you made your point.

Desert Dweller · Guru

montie wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
The caravan had a few dents & scratches on it despite it being relatively new.
Asked the guy what happened & he said that he'd just got rid of a late model Mazda BT50 with all the bells & whistles.
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend.
The road was dry & his weighs were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.

Hi Keith and Judy,
Bet you happy you made this post!
It certainly brought the keyboard experts out into the open.
Don't worry about it mate, you made your point.

If you read the WHOLE thing carefully, we weren't trying to make any POINT whatsoever & no we're not worried about it at all mate. Thanks for your concern.

As we stated previously none of this applies to us.

People can feel free to make their own minds up.

We never mentioned weights in our posts, where did the 3.5 ton come from?

We wouldn't doubt the integrity of the man who told us about his accident.

Obviously people whose rigs are ''close to the wire'' as far as weights are concerned don't like to read about things like this as it puts an element of doubt in their mind.

It also puts a slight dent in their ''I'm invincible attitude''. Each to their own.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Monty, with all due respect, I think you have missed the point.

Certainly laudable that folk highlight the issues of towing a large, heavy van with a potentially unsuitable tow vehicle.

However, to post a second hand 'story' that is bereft of detail does not further the information on sensible, legal, safe ways to set up a towing outfit.

Suggesting that towing with a ute was the only contributing factor in this instance, even if that was the 'opinion' of the original storyteller being related here, does not add to the confirmation that all utes in all circumstances are unsuitable to tow with.

In actuality, because it proposes a scenario with absolutely no detail, including what the term "weighs (sic) were all legal" actually means, makes is difficult to understand, and maybe believe. It has more potential to 'mask' the actual problems with those who DO tow a heavy, large van with a tow vehicle that is unsuitable for a wide range of reasons.

A bit like telling those who own and tow with a Jeep (or any other make) that their vehicle is totally unsuitable, simply because of opinion, when they find it to be a good vehicle.

In this instance, I think your comment "keyboard experts" is a little misplaced.

I add again, "Anyhow, the bottom line is that not a single one of us will ever know what happened, why it happened ... of even IF it happened. We are all "urinating into the wind" so to speak."

Praps, DD will one day return to this thread and elaborate on the story related to him.

Cheers - John

Kebbin · Guru

Perhaps with a grid search we will be able to locate said Driver and persuade him to fill in a Statutory Declaration and provide a Incident Report in triplicate to satisfy the questioners, if not the questioners could try a bit of Waterboarding to persuade said Driver to comply.

And just a thought but in future DD do try to remember to record your conversations for future forum interrogation.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Morn'n all,

I was going to sit this one out but why should I miss out on all the fun, nope, not me.

I am a driver of one of the twin cab utes and is listed in my signature. I will say up front the Collie and Aluminium TeePee tow very nicely indeed thankyou very much. The Collie is well under weight in all areas and the TeePee is also under it's max weight allowed. The Collie is slightly heavier than the TeePee as well. As the Collie and TeePee are my home the are loaded at all times. The only thing that changes are the tyre pressures on the Collie, slightly less than when TeePee is hooked up.

I always drive to conditions including weather and roads. I have even been known to slip the Collie into low range 4X4 with TeePee hooked up and off, to navigate a gravel or dirt road, not often but has been done. (Thanks Mrs Garman)

I have gone to a lot of trouble to make sure both the Collie and TeePee are under their max weights as it is always in the front of my mind. I have weighed on a few different weighbridges and one time only in the last few weeks. I also got waved in not long after that one and was fully checked by 'Vic Roads' on the Hume Hwy just south of Wodonga. ALL GOOD. Two of three of us were told to have a good trip and one was told to move to the side ahead. I can only guess why?

I'm a great beleiver in driving to the conditions and sitting around 90kmh as a max speed.

It could be one of a number of reasons why this thread is taking place.

Keep Safe on the roads and out there.

rockylizard · Guru

Kebbin wrote:
Perhaps with a grid search we will be able to locate said Driver and persuade him to fill in a Statutory Declaration and provide a Incident Report in triplicate to satisfy the questioners, if not the questioners could try a bit of Waterboarding to persuade said Driver to comply.

And just a thought but in future DD do try to remember to record your conversations for future forum interrogation.

Gday...

Just a trifle unnecessarily, and overly, sarcastic one thinks.

OR ................... if one wants to provide information to those on this forum that "validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums" about "Tail Wags Dog, Duel (sic) Cab Ute" then provide some detail from the storyteller and provide that detail to elucidate the reason in a post entitled "Tail Wags Dog, Duel (sic) Cab Ute" - one assumes for the edification of we, the unwashed "keyboard experts", who simply had difficulty in accepting that an apparently perfectly loaded tow outfit would all of a sudden commit hari kari - all because it was a BT50 ute.

The storyteller provided this info, related by DD, apparently ... "driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend. The road was dry & his weighs (sic) were all legal, (what does that mean?) after braking his rig kept going in a straight line (no deviation?) through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam."

Surely, some qualification for a statement such as this would have been what most would have tried to solicit at the time of the story telling over a beer at the happy hour.

But once again ... I restate "Anyhow, the bottom line is that not a single one of us will ever know what happened, why it happened ... or even IF it happened. We are all "urinating into the wind" so to speak."

Jest sayin' hmm

Cheers - John

Dickodownunder · Guru

I think the OP did most a service in posting the story.
We can all doubt the validity of the story after all that happens on here most of the time, but if we rise above that, the post has generated some very healthy and helpful comments as to how to set up a car a caravan for towing.

Most of the basics have been covered and addressed in this topic and if this information then goes to help anyone setting up their rig
then it has been worth it regardless if they are towing with a BT 50, a 200 LC or even a 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto.

Dickodownunder · Guru

Kebbin wrote:
Perhaps with a grid search we will be able to locate said Driver and persuade him to fill in a Statutory Declaration and provide a Incident Report in triplicate to satisfy the questioners, if not the questioners could try a bit of Waterboarding to persuade said Driver to comply.

And just a thought but in future DD do try to remember to record your conversations for future forum interrogation.

Hahaha, that is funny Kebbin.. biggrin biggrin

We all should support our own personal version by insinuating that the OP is telling lies.

Im off now to buy a tape recorder biggrin

Desert Dweller · Guru

If you read our posts, we haven't expressed any opinions, all we've done is retell a story exactly as it was told to us by the person it happened to.

There is no more detail to be told, we did ask him if he had his rig (BT50 & van) over a weighbridge prior to the accident & he said that he had. He did feel that the accident was a result of towing with a twin cab ute.

There's no more to tell. Our Navara is supposed to be able to tow 2800kg with a maximum ball weight of 280kg.

Our van weighs 1580kg fully loaded with a ball weight of 160-170kg so none of this applies to or interests us. We have 17ft van by choice.

If people do what Dougwe above has done & carefully checked their weighs they should be fine in our opinion, not that we know that much about it.

We also drive to the conditions & sit on around 90kph maximum speed. We've also been pulled over for weight checks (Princes Hwy west of Cann River VIC).

If we'd know that our thread would turn into an inquisition we wouldn't have posted it. If we hear anything like it again we'll be keeping it to ourselves.

Thanks for your interest everyone.

dieseltojo · Senior Member

Anyway, glad the man came out ok in the end.

I saw the exact same thing happen before me in the Gippsland coastal hills area.

A farmer was towing a 25 foot Franklin van and couldn't slow down enough to make a bend.

He drove straight ahead in his Holden and through a gate and into a paddock. They were the days of over-rider brakes of course, and his van wheels were too hot to touch for long.

In this case driving on a dirt road, Its hard to say but I reckon the weight of a cruiser and its braking power, would be of more help than the Mazda say. But speed and the brakes on the van would all come into it.

If you are driving on ball bearings(gravel) no matter the combo, as most have noted speed is the thing, and driving to conditions. If you go to Mount Dare and the roads around there, they get many single vehicle roll overs all due to speed and sharp corners on dirt roads. I know that head-ons are a feature of that area.

I had a Mitsubishi ute from new once and the darned thing always skidded upon braking even at low speed. I changed the tyres and it was perfect. Just another point to think about.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Breaking and turning at 90 degree comer . Tells me the the driver knew he was going too fast . Yes his experience prevented more damage . It LUCK ? In any case ABS & stability control etc can only help so much . Itâs unfortunate to say and hard to admit at times . Itâs that nut again !! The one behind the wheel ! Yes we have all been there !! Lol

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Tail Wags Dog, Duel (sic) Cab Ute

We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.

The caravan had a few dents & scratches on it despite it being relatively new.

Asked the guy what happened & he said that he'd just got rid of a late model Mazda BT50 with all the bells & whistles.

He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend. The road was dry & his weighs (sic) were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.

It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.

Cheers - John

Desert Dweller · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Tail Wags Dog, Duel (sic) Cab Ute
We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
The caravan had a few dents & scratches on it despite it being relatively new.
Asked the guy what happened & he said that he'd just got rid of a late model Mazda BT50 with all the bells & whistles.
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend. The road was dry & his weighs (sic) were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.
Cheers - John

Anyone can dig up rubbish from the internet, some folk are experts at it, not mentioning any names.

montie · Guru

Desert Dweller wrote:

The guy said that it was purely a case of too much weight pushing a lightweight tug.

That would seem clear enough to me.

So he sold the dual cab and bought a 200 series.....sounds like sensible decision to me.

He had a minor accident, identified the cause and corrected it.

Unless of course, as is being insinuated, the OP and van owner are blatant liars.

And the OP was very remiss in not interrogating the van owner and recording the full conversation for the benefit some keyboard experts.

montie · Guru

Desert Dweller wrote:
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Tail Wags Dog, Duel (sic) Cab Ute
We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
The caravan had a few dents & scratches on it despite it being relatively new.
Asked the guy what happened & he said that he'd just got rid of a late model Mazda BT50 with all the bells & whistles.
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend. The road was dry & his weighs (sic) were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.
Cheers - John

That's just rubbish!!
Anyone can dig up rubbish from the internet, some folk are experts at it, not mentioning any names.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Sorry DD and Monty .... I'm at agen - can't help meself

Face Value.png

Cheers - John

Dickodownunder · Guru

Hahaha!!
We should start a topic on memes that we can all use.
We could all have them in a menu like the emoticons

Now I am being silly.. biggrin biggrin

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Can we add some electrical to this and have a serious debate ! Lol Besuses he was possibly being a gentleman not blaming his ( Mrs ) navigator, wrong pace notes .. aha

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Thursday 5th of April 2018 11:53:36 AM

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

FINALLY ! ! !

Ya hit the nail on the proverbial AK .... that is wot caused the 'incident'.

An electrical fault because of the grey water tank near the WDH, right where the breakaway cable should have been affixed ...... of course ..... why didn't we see it IMMEDIATELY ! ! !

Cheers - John

Bryan · Guru

I'm begining to think that the BT50 behaved very well indeed. I trying hard to imagine a car and caravan keeping in a relative straight line under heavy braking and on what I assume was a loose surface.

Had the rig veered slightly, it could have ended up in a major disaster.

As Dougwe said "drive to the condition of the road"

yobarr · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
FINALLY ! ! !
Ya hit the nail on the proverbial AK .... that is wot caused the 'incident'.
An electrical fault because of the grey water tank near the WDH, right where the breakaway cable should have been affixed ...... of course ..... why didn't we see it IMMEDIATELY ! ! !

Cheers - John

Im just a bit disappointed that it took you guys so long to work out what was the cause of the incident! Well done all! Safe travels to all.....and keep those grey water tanks away from the WDH.(IF you insist on using one). Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 5th of April 2018 01:06:30 PM