Lemon caravans ?

Sarge9 · Senior Member

Lemon caravans ?

Swoffer · Senior Member

montie wrote:

A minor fault is one that can be rectified and that is exactly what all reputable dealers do.

Montie

And right there is where the problem lies IMO .

This problem IS real , not just perceived and to just say things like "keyboard warriors" etc just adds to the publics perception of the industry in general . The sooner the reputable dealers and the buying public get together , find common ground and push the shysters out the better .

All reputable dealers do the right thing clearly but its the cowboys and fly by nighters that are the problem for both buyers and reputable dealers alike .

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

It would appear to be something is completely missed by the posters on this thread.

Not all of any MAKE/MODEL of particular vans are 'lemons' - sure there may be some that have issues which could have been avoided during manufacture.

But to try and name (and shame?) ANY make/model of a van is fraught with difficulty.

Let's use Jayco as an example ... there are some who bought a Jayco who will crow long and loud how they are the worst van on the market and tell horrendous tales of problems with the van ... the dealer ... and the manufacturer. Their stories are ingrained in the memories of posters to this forum who have read their tribulations.

Conversely, the greater majority of Jayco owners are extremely happy with their van, the dealer ... and the manufacturer. Again, that has been evidenced on this forum many times.

Similarly, there are dealers who have a long history of being good to their customers and have been trading for many years ... like any business, ya don't have longevity if not providing a service the customer wants and expects. Some of those same dealers will have customers who, for whatever reason, will castigate them till the cows come home on how they were the worst people to deal with.

I keep stressing ... banging ya gums on a forum about this "problem" (perceived or otherwise) is a complete waste of time .. it just makes those who vent feel better (or vindicated) to share their sad story.

It is only continual, persistent, informed representation to MP's, Ministers, consumer and industry organisations highlighting GENUINE 'lemons' that is likely to cause any change to the existing 'industry'.

ACTION rather than whinging.

Cheers - John

Swoffer · Senior Member

rockylizard wrote:

ACTION rather than whinging.
Cheers - John

Sorry John , dont agree with ya there .

Having a discussion about an issues is not whinging its what grown ups do . At no point have I mentioned a particular manufacturer as clearly as you suggest the vast majority of products are adequate but that still doesnt mean that there isnt a problem , and to suggest it shouldnt be discussed is just not right .

Perhaps John if this thread or topic offends you then scroll straight past it and dont read .

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Sorry Alan. Perhaps you do feel a 'discussion' is worthwhile.

However, what will it achieve? confuse

Very little I propose. cry The 'problems' will continue to exist, the 'problems' will continue to be foisted on customers, the 'problems' will STILL not have any legislative/regulatory change to modify/improve product quality.

The topic has been 'discussed' ad infinitum - and sadly, those 'discussions' have done nothing to alleviate the state of the industry. Perhaps I should rephrase the description of whinging ... but venting one's unfortunate experiences in the purchase of their van on a forum doesn't progress the need for changes to be implemented.

I only mentioned a 'manufacturer' as an example in my previous post saying that some owners vehemently deride the quality of their purchase, the attitude and/or helpfulness of the dealer, or the ignorance of the manufacturer ... but conversely, many owners have the exact opposite story of their experience with that same manufacturer.

Cheers - John

montie · Guru

rockylizard wrote:

I only mentioned a 'manufacturer' as an example in my previous post saying that some owners vehemently deride the quality of their purchase, the attitude and/or helpfulness of the dealer, or the ignorance of the manufacturer ... but conversely, many owners have the exact opposite story of their experience with that same manufacturer.
Cheers - John

And we rarely hear from them on this or other forums.

As I stated earlier 90% of the new vans sold and the dealers or manufacturers who sell them are long standing reputable people who honour their obligations to the buyer.

Unfortunately there are a minority of rogues in every industry and they are the ones who feature on forums such as this one.

I am somewhat puzzled however as to why a buyer who has a problem that is not being addressed satisfactorily on his new van would resort to trumpet blowing on public media instead of using the legal resources available to have the issue resolved. Makes me wonder if he really wants to resolve the issue at all but prefers to bang the keyboard.

Montie

meetoo · Guru

montie wrote:
rockylizard wrote:

I only mentioned a 'manufacturer' as an example in my previous post saying that some owners vehemently deride the quality of their purchase, the attitude and/or helpfulness of the dealer, or the ignorance of the manufacturer ... but conversely, many owners have the exact opposite story of their experience with that same manufacturer.
Cheers - John
And we rarely hear from them on this or other forums.
As I stated earlier 90% of the new vans sold and the dealers or manufacturers who sell them are long standing reputable people who honour their obligations to the buyer.
Unfortunately there are a minority of rogues in every industry and they are the ones who feature on forums such as this one.
I am somewhat puzzled however as to why a buyer who has a problem that is not being addressed satisfactorily on his new van would resort to trumpet blowing on public media instead of using the legal resources available to have the issue resolved. Makes me wonder if he really wants to resolve the issue at all but prefers to bang the keyboard.
Montie

OK montie you say 10% of new vans have problems but reputable dealers fix them... My point is that your 10% shouldn't happen in the first place. It is shoddy work (and there is no excuse for that, no matter what) and that is disgraceful for an industry. But if I was selling 18000 vans each year, even I might not worry about what damage only 10% does to customers lives.

Cheers, John.

Ge · Senior Member

brickies wrote:
When we buy a house we get someone to do a pre purchase inspection , Maybe this might be what needs to happen with RV .

That's right you should as you suggested, plenty of company's doing it and not expensive.

Amazing people get a pre inspection on $30,000.00 car but not a $74,000.00 van.

Personally me thinks most new vans are blatantly overpriced.

montie · Guru

Ge wrote:
brickies wrote:
When we buy a house we get someone to do a pre purchase inspection , Maybe this might be what needs to happen with RV .
That's right you should as you suggested, plenty of company's doing it and not expensive.
Amazing people get a pre inspection on $30,000.00 car but not a $74,000.00 van.
Personally me thinks most new vans are blatantly overpriced.

-- Edited by montie on Friday 10th of February 2017 06:52:54 AM

-- Edited by montie on Friday 10th of February 2017 06:54:17 AM

montie · Guru

meetoo wrote:
montie wrote:
rockylizard wrote:

I only mentioned a 'manufacturer' as an example in my previous post saying that some owners vehemently deride the quality of their purchase, the attitude and/or helpfulness of the dealer, or the ignorance of the manufacturer ... but conversely, many owners have the exact opposite story of their experience with that same manufacturer.
Cheers - John
And we rarely hear from them on this or other forums.
As I stated earlier 90% of the new vans sold and the dealers or manufacturers who sell them are long standing reputable people who honour their obligations to the buyer.
Unfortunately there are a minority of rogues in every industry and they are the ones who feature on forums such as this one.
I am somewhat puzzled however as to why a buyer who has a problem that is not being addressed satisfactorily on his new van would resort to trumpet blowing on public media instead of using the legal resources available to have the issue resolved. Makes me wonder if he really wants to resolve the issue at all but prefers to bang the keyboard.
Montie
OK montie you say 10% of new vans have problems but reputable dealers fix them... My point is that your 10% shouldn't happen in the first place. It is shoddy work (and there is no excuse for that, no matter what) and that is disgraceful for an industry. But if I was selling 18000 vans each year, even I might not worry about what damage only 10% does to customers lives.
Cheers, John.

John,

I can see I am confusing you with the facts. blankstare

Motor vehicle, marine, RV and many other manufacturers offer a warranty to rectify any problems with their products within that warranty period.

Perhaps one day, probably not in our lifetime, a manufacturer will build a perfect product that never develops faults.He will probably also crack the puzzle of perpetual motion and genetically design disease free humans.

In the meantime if you have some teething problems with your new RV just give us a call and we will arrange to have them fixed for you. blankstare

Montie

Ron-D · Guru

I think from what I have observed a lot more than 10 percent have had problems with there vans that staement is ridiculous in my opinion ..

the place I bought my van from is a well known manufacturer and there work shop and staff cant keep up with the repair work that's why I sorted it out at my own expense After being mucked around so many times.

Iam also curiouse about what these fabulous legal resources available are ? if at all,could you imagine the dramas and time that would take .

Possum3 · Guru

Montie said; I am somewhat puzzled however as to why a buyer who has a problem that is not being addressed satisfactorily on his new van would resort to trumpet blowing on public media instead of using the legal resources available to have the issue resolved. Makes me wonder if he really wants to resolve the issue at all but prefers to bang the keyboard."

He is well aware of the costs of litigation - The State Tribunal where he operates has a upper limit of $25K - that's great if you are buying a cheaper imported car but on the other hand if you end up with one of his "only 10%" faulty RV's costing between $80K to $250K - Where else has a pensioner/retiree got to try and get justice.

The RV industry is a joke and the sooner the Websites aim of amending the "Justice" in the application of Consumer Law occurs- the better off we will all be - with the exception of Shonks in the RV Industry and their Dealers.

The members of the two websites is currently about 10,000 + 3,000 (this is growing daily).

Manufacturer and Dealer warranties are superceded by Consumer Law and regardless of what Manufacturers and Dealers claim - is not limited to a repair at the manufacturer, possibly in another State. Refunds and Replacement (at consumer's choice) is mandated by Australian Consumer Law. This is what the anti-website dealers are trying to supress.

montie · Guru

Ron-D wrote:

Iam also curiouse about what these fabulous legal resources available are ? if at all,could you imagine the dramas and time that would take .

Ron,

If you have issues that are not being addressed by either the dealer or manufacturer just simply get a quote to have them rectified and lodge a claim with respective Tribunal in your state. Advisable to get a solicitor to prepare the claim for you but he cannot attend the hearing.

Both parties will present their evidence and the Tribunal will make a decision based on that. The cost is minimal and is different for each state.

In Qld there is a nominal lodgement fee(approx $150) plus the cost of preparing the claim. In Qld there is a $25000 cap on the amount of your claim.

If your problems are verified as part of your evidence then there will be little doubt the Tribunal will order in your favour. In Qld it's called QCat, NSW is NCat, Vic is Vcat etc., Mr Google will help you there.

Beats banging away on Facebook and getting nowhere, except perhaps getting sued.

Montie

-- Edited by montie on Friday 10th of February 2017 09:06:20 AM

montie · Guru

Possum3 wrote:
Montie said; I am somewhat puzzled however as to why a buyer who has a problem that is not being addressed satisfactorily on his new van would resort to trumpet blowing on public media instead of using the legal resources available to have the issue resolved. Makes me wonder if he really wants to resolve the issue at all but prefers to bang the keyboard."

He is well aware of the costs of litigation - The State Tribunal where he operates has a upper limit of $25K - that's great if you are buying a cheaper imported car but on the other hand if you end up with one of his "only 10%" faulty RV's costing between $80K to $250K - Where else has a pensioner/retiree got to try and get justice.

The RV industry is a joke and the sooner the Websites aim of amending the "Justice" in the application of Consumer Law occurs- the better off we will all be - with the exception of Shonks in the RV Industry and their Dealers.

The members of the two websites is currently about 10,000 + 3,000 (this is growing daily).

Manufacturer and Dealer warranties are superceded by Consumer Law and regardless of what Manufacturers and Dealers claim - is not limited to a repair at the manufacturer, possibly in another State. Refunds and Replacement (at consumer's choice) is mandated by Australian Consumer Law. This is what the anti-website dealers are trying to supress.

Aha! The man with the big gun has reappeared beating the same old drum!! blankstare

Montie

Possum3 · Guru

Montie said; Beats banging away on Facebook and getting nowhere, except perhaps getting sued.

He is well aware that Customers with legitimate complaints telling the truth cannot be successfully sued. Another of the "Threats" used by many disreputable dealers attempting to stop the criticism of their shonky practices. Also, I believe that corporations cannot sue for libel, only individuals -

The Genie is out of the bottle now, and all shonky dealers are scurrying to minimise the damage - The Golden Egg is cracking - and it's about time.

-- Edited by Possum3 on Friday 10th of February 2017 04:39:32 PM

TheHeaths · Guru

These comments are not directed at Montie as a criticism of his business, but as I perceive the industry.

What I find problematic with the situation is this.

Major problems will occur with a product from time to time. Unfortunate but true. They need to be addressed under the warranty, and hopefully the dealer makes that as easy as possible.

The real issue from my point of view is what is termed "minor" problems. A lot of those issues are minor, but what amazes me is that many dealers appear not carry out even a basic pre delivery check that could uncover many of those issues, allowing them to fix them prior to delivery to the customer. Things like stoves not igniting, lights not working, doors not closing, fridges not working on 12 volt/gas/240 volt, leaks, squeaky brakes, poor silicon, water tanks not filling, water pumps not working and the like, are hardly difficult to check and find as part of a reasonable pre delivery check. From my point of view, it appears too many dealers work on the theory that it can be fixed when and IF the customer finds it. That is not good customer service but seems to predominate in the industry. Perhaps a pre delivery checklist should be provided to the customer with each van, marked off as done by the dealer, and carrying come financial penalty if faults in items covered under the list occur immediately, may focus attention a bit better.

Then comes the "acceptable" time period for fixing. Having just spent north of $50k for a new van, getting told that it will be 3 or 4 months before the faults can be rectified is NOT acceptable. There should be capacity at the dealer repair shop to carry repairs out within a week or two at worst. I know that this is a cost for the dealer to carry, but if they had to meet this, it may get them focused on getting vans to come from the factory in a better state of completion.

Finally, the matter of sending customers to other places where warranty is on an item supplied by outside companies such as fridges, aircons etc. Sorry dealer, but you got my money, my contract is with you, you handle the legwork and get it fixed for me. That is the long and short of it. You happily take my money, you can happily provide the service afterwards if there are issues.

We have only ever bought one new van, and while we had what I consider to be major issues being leaks and delaminating walls, our dealer and manufacturer did stand behind their product and fix things when requested. It was the little annoyances that got/get to me, as they could be fixed easily, and if done so, would change the perception of this industry for many from bad to good.

Possum3 · Guru

Well now he is coming back with personal jibes - Many on this site are proud to have served and are from families with a proud Military history. So don't be a Jackass.

Ron-D · Guru

I understand where your coming from Monte and thanks for your reply,it must be a hard gig being a solo white knight defending the industry biggrin

but all jokes aside that legal process would be time consuming and you would still have to pay a lawyer ,I solved my own problems and saved the drama ,Just a little sample of what went on Ihad a pressure regulating valve that was in need of replacing this was done by a young long haired kid using a 12 inch shifter on a a small diameter fitting, He had no mechanical experience and the job was done ok. But I was nervous watching him hmm ...

montie · Guru

Possum3 wrote:
- The Golden Egg is cracking - and it's about time.

And here was I thinking that a golden egg had something to do with a goose blankstare

mmmm...on reflection... blankstare

Montie

Swoffer · Senior Member

montie wrote:
Possum3 wrote:
- The Golden Egg is cracking - and it's about time.
And here was I thinking that a golden egg had something to do with a goose
mmmm...on reflection...

Montie

See this is the sort of thing that does not help with the discussion at all , maybe John (Rocky) is right after all biggrin

So rather than personal jibes can we just keep to the topic ?

Webmaster · Guru

Hi all,
Just a reminder to please refrain from making personal comments about other members. This is an interesting topic and I understand that people may have strong views about it. However, whether you agree or disagree with someone's post, please ensure that you direct your comments towards the topic, not the person who posted it.
Thanks for your help with this.

Bruce and Bev · Guru

Montie. Its good to hear that you are a decent RV dealer who stands by his products, but its been our experience that is not the case with many others - they still live in the world of the many now out of business, 2nd hand car yard dealers - shonky, don't care once they have your money and pull all sorts of tricks in short cutting repair costs.

Mine one is the biggest and oldest van dealer in WA. The salesperson I dealt with is very honourable and helped get many of the problems fixed out of hours, so the owners didn't know.

But after the 1 yr dealer warranty has expired and the implied warranty kicks in with the manufacturer - the real problems start. They refuse to answer emails (polite) and then may react if you tell them you intend to complain to the ACCC - but they try to wear you down and many folk just end up taking it to a van repairer and playing themselves for these warranty defects.

I should have bought my van from you lol

montie · Guru

Bruce and Bev wrote:
Montie. Its good to hear that you are a decent RV dealer who stands by his products, but its been our experience that is not the case with many others - they still live in the world of the many now out of business, 2nd hand car yard dealers - shonky, don't care once they have your money and pull all sorts of tricks in short cutting repair costs.

Mine one is the biggest and oldest van dealer in WA. The salesperson I dealt with is very honourable and helped get many of the problems fixed out of hours, so the owners didn't know.

But after the 1 yr dealer warranty has expired and the implied warranty kicks in with the manufacturer - the real problems start. They refuse to answer emails (polite) and then may react if you tell them you intend to complain to the ACCC - but they try to wear you down and many folk just end up taking it to a van repairer and playing themselves for these warranty defects.

I should have bought my van from you lol

Bruce,

You would be very welcome but a bit far to travel. blankstare

I believe that van warranties should be for a two year term which would be more reasonable. Many manufacturers are now offering this.

Most van manufacturers, not unlike car makers, will look hard at any minor claims outside the warranty period. Major claims are a different situation.

Montie

-- Edited by montie on Friday 10th of February 2017 12:18:09 PM

brickies · Guru

A policeman told me once, the people that greet him nicely, it hard not to be nice to them , Some people hit the dealer double barrels and put the dealer offside and some have the nice approach and get results .

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

The plod you refer to, I think, has a very valid point.

Judging from the comments one reads on forums and facebook sites, and assuming their comments are similarly directed at a dealer face-to-face, I can well imagine how some owners get little 'positive' response.

There is something about catching flies and honey I remember from somewhere

cheers - John

DMaxer · Guru

One of the major issues consumers face is relying on forums to obtain legal advice. No claim is governed by one particular piece of legislation. That is why the first step is to obtain advice from a qualified lawyer, not a forum know it all. By the way, lawyers can appear at small claims tribunals, try googling Mackenzie Friend. Also, the word is "libel" not liable!

montie · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
One of the major issues consumers face is relying on forums to obtain legal advice. No claim is governed by one particular piece of legislation. That is why the first step is to obtain advice from a qualified lawyer, not a forum know it all. By the way, lawyers can appear at small claims tribunals, try googling Mackenzie Friend. Also, the word is "libel" not liable!

DMaxer,

It's been over 5 years since we attended a Tribunal hearing and back then in Qld no solicitors were allowed.

Not sure what the current rules are they may have changed.

Lots of keyboard lawyers on these forums! blankstare

Montie

Swoffer · Senior Member

montie wrote:
back then in Qld no solicitors were allowed.

Montie

God this smells a bit fishy , why on earth would a government legislate to disallow people representation .

montie · Guru

Swoffer wrote:
montie wrote:
back then in Qld no solicitors were allowed.

Montie
God this smells a bit fishy , why on earth would a government legislate to disallow people representation .

No solicitors were allowed for either party...they both presented their case and the Tribunal made a decision based on the evidence in front of them. Whats fishy about that? Unless of course you think there is now a conspiracy between the Govt and the RV industry blankstare

It kept the costs down and it is after all a small claims Tribunal.

DMaxer, who knows what he is talking about now reckons that that rule has changed so you can take your solicitor with you!

Montie

mumpedo · Member

Montie wrote:

A definition of a major fault, safety or otherwise, is one that cannot be rectified or is very difficult to do so.

...A minor fault is one that can be rectified and that is exactly what all reputable dealers do.

Montie
-----------------

Montie, may I suggest that you read this document: 'Consumer guarantees - A guide for businesses and legal practitioners'. (www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Consumer%20guarantees%20-%20A%20guide%20for%20businesses%20and%20legal%20practitioners.pdf)

The term is not major fault but major failure. Your definition is only one of five included in the Australian Consumer Law. See page 19. There is also a sixth ground for rejecting a product -- where repairs have been sought by the consumer and they are either refused or take an unreasonable amount of time.

So it appears that you may not be fully aware of your responsibilities under the law.

The first ground to claim a major failure, reject the product and claim a refund or replacement is one that most people are unaware of. It is the 'reasonable consumer test'. From that document:
" a reasonable consumer would not have bought the goods if they had known about the problem. For example, no reasonable consumer would buy a washing machine if they knew the motor was going to burn out after three months"

So as a dealer, do you think a reasonable consumer would purchase a brand new, full priced, $70 000 plus RV if they knew it would have multiple defects, say for example the ones you believed to be minor "a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc". If you think so, I suggest you do some market research to find out for sure because from what I am hearing on other forums most people believe that their very expensive RV should be defect free. If they were told in advance about water leaks, poor sealing, that their indicator would blow fuses, brakes might have problems and then the dealer will tell them to go to the appliance manufacturer for the stove and the fridge, I suggest they would turn around and walk out and not only would they not buy that RV, they would not buy that brand and they would not buy from you.

On the point of being defect free, the Australian Consumer Law states that to be of acceptable quality a product must be defect free. Most dealers and manufacturers will claim that it is a caravan, there is no way it can be free of defects, it is hand built. I am pretty sure I have read that from you too. Well so is an aeroplane and I am sure we would both hope that it is defect free when we fly in it.

The issue here is the duty of care of the manufacturer and the dealer. If there is proper quality control and the proper pre-delivery check that is supposed to happen from reputable businesses, all apparent defects would be rectified before the customer picks up the RV. Only latent defects or those that cannot be tested would remain. This is not what is happening. The vast majority of owners I have read about report having to either go back to the dealer for repairs or doing the repairs themselves as they are too far away.

I know the consumer law because I run a business and make it my business to know. I also own a caravan and am a member of many forums and Facebook groups about caravans including lemons, nightmares and shonkies.

I suggest you fully acquaint yourself with the Australian Consumer Law before making statements about definitions of major failures and potentially misleading readers of this forum about their real consumer rights.

Bazza

-- Edited by mumpedo on Friday 10th of February 2017 07:07:27 PM