The listed faults shouldn't be there in the first place. One cannot blame customers for being the ones at fault when these things happen. It is shoddy workmanship in the first place, followed by shoddy quality control, by shoddy manufacturers, followed by shoddy dealers who should pick these problems up on predelivery and fix up front, and not leave for the customer to be disadvantaged and then criticised for speaking up about things that they paid good money for in good faith not to be there.

Swoffer · Senior Member

Lemon caravans ?

ants_oz · Veteran Member

Real tough one that.

I honestly believe that the vast majority of people who complain about caravan build quality (etc) don't appreciate that they are talking about a largely custom-built product, manufactured to a market-driven price in most instances, and assembled by hand using a large number of components from a huge number of manufacturers.

People compare them to cars - when in reality they are nothing like a car at all. The engineering that motor vehicle manufacturers put into the process of building new models is insane.

I personally think serial complainers are probably more of an issue than "rogue" manufacturers in the caravan industry. People want the best, aren't prepared to pay what "the best" costs, then complain wildly when what they paid for doesn't meet their expectations.

Desert Dweller · Guru

We spoke to a bloke that had got burnt with a new van that he'd had built. It had a huge amount of faults that he couldn't get fixed. He'd hired a solicitor, gone to consumer affairs & the ombudsman with no joy from them at all.

He ended up selling it & buying a second-hand Jayco. He had a petition going & an album of photos showing the faults.

He looked a run down nervous wreck when we spoke to him. The company shown went into liquidation but we believe that there is a new dealer with the same name currently operating.

This was about 4 years ago.

-- Edited by Desert Dweller on Wednesday 8th of February 2017 01:37:21 PM

Bushpie · Guru

Nope .....no discussion.....there will always be dodgy dealers ........just as there is in every industry.....some are lucky....some are not ....we all know it so no need to talk about it........

However having to watch ones ps and qs to let people know of a dodgy one is of concern.........just my thought.

Cannot say I am looking forward to purchasing our van in the future but I am coming to terms with I buy it, I find all the faults with it and I spend countless hours trying to get the warranty jobs done...... seems like so much fun

Ron-D · Guru

Its to be expected that a new mass produced caravan will have some faults,as mine did ,you usually have to drive long distances,have to wait in some instances a long period before the things fixed,with my van I got fed up with being mucked around and I just fixed most of itmyself and a couple of electrical problems farmed out at my own expense.

In a perfect world your new pride and joy would be fixed quickly and in a proper manner ,but the industry has far too many caravans that need to be repaired under warranty and it's a shame there a rush job and a shoddy job at that in a lot of cases..

Swoffer · Senior Member

Bushpie wrote:
Nope .....no discussion........we all know it so no need to talk about it........

Your Kidding surely , no need to talk about it ?

rockylizard · Guru

Swoffer wrote:
Bushpie wrote:
Nope .....no discussion........we all know it so no need to talk about it........
Your Kidding surely , no need to talk about it ?

Gday...

Understand very much where you are coming from Swoffer cry

Unfortunately, this subject has been done to death on forums for at least a decade - if not longer. cry

Slowly, definitely VERY slowly, there is some movement from 'authorities' to establish some 'regulations/legislation' to address those instances of genuine "lemon" caravans. Only time will show whether they are genuinely 'pushing' it ... or just paying 'lip-service' to the issue to keep the great unwashed contented that 'action is happening' and will still vote them back in.

No matter how much people, informed or otherwise, on forums regurgitate the same old vitriol and old tall tales and true of various problems experienced it will not expedite any action from the above-mentioned 'authorities'.

Your time, and that of others on all the forums, would be to continue, and forcibly, communicating with your local MP - State and Federal - highlighting the sad state of the so-called 'caravan industry'.

Despite it being unpalatable, there really are many who complain about what are trivial, easily fixable 'faults' in what are NOT mass-produced vehicles .. but rather 'one-off' almost custom-built pieces of plywood on a trailer chassis. Motor vehicles are mass-produced ... caravans are almost individual creations.

.......... and unfortunately, in many instances, with little or no quality control.

Cheers - John

Bruce and Bev · Guru

I paid $74K for my caravan from Supreme and after many warranty repairs, its still a lemon.

I don't consider you "get what you pay for" in terms of you should expect it to have numerous faults (in my case 64). When I took it to Supremes factory they were causal labourers and skilled work like electrical was sub-contracted out. Only spoke to one very old Italian guy who had been with the company since it started and he moaned about the quality of the staff, the quality of the assembly, the quality of the various items bought in and then the lack of action in fixing it.

With us, its been a case of 100's of emails to the dealer and manufacturer and constant threats of complaining to the ACCC to get any repair action.

Now, after 18 months we have a non-working hot water system and I expect that I will be like others and just pay to get it fixed myself,

Then I'm selling it for a good buyer price and buying a boat. No more caravans for us..........

msg · Guru

I don't have a caravan. But, $74k is a lot of money. You would expect the best and even a little gold plating. Add a tug to it and you have a large investment. They should fix problems without question.

But, there shouldn't be any problems at that cost.

Swoffer · Senior Member

msg wrote:
I don't have a caravan. But, $74k is a lot of money. You would expect the best and even a little gold plating. Add a tug to it and you have a large investment. They should fix problems without question.

But, there shouldn't be any problems at that cost.

Thats exactly the issue as I see it MSG . $74k is a lot of money but its very easy to spend a whole lot more on a van and to say oh its all been said before so no point talking about it is nonsensical . I understand admins point of view re the link in my original post and not wanting to attract trolls here , but really if poor workmanship and shoddy treatment of buyers is endemic in the caravan "industry" then it NEEDS to be talked about .

rockylizard · Guru

Swoffer wrote:
msg wrote:
I don't have a caravan. But, $74k is a lot of money. You would expect the best and even a little gold plating. Add a tug to it and you have a large investment. They should fix problems without question.

But, there shouldn't be any problems at that cost.
Thats exactly the issue as I see it MSG . $74k is a lot of money but its very easy to spend a whole lot more on a van and to say oh its all been said before so no point talking about it is nonsensical . I understand admins point of view re the link in my original post and not wanting to attract trolls here , but really if poor workmanship and shoddy treatment of buyers is endemic in the caravan "industry" then it NEEDS to be talked about .

Gday...

It certainly needs to be highlighted and brought to the attention of those who can make something change.

Banging our gums (blistering our fingers?) on a forum does nothing - absolutely nothing - except perhaps make people feel a bit better having aired their problems with their particular caravan.

It needs to be CONSTANTLY, POINTEDLY, FORCIBLY represented to State and Federal MPs and relevant Ministers, consumer organisations, industry organisations. It is only then that change to existing regulations/legislation - or the introduction of pertinent, and hopefully effective, regulation/legislation - that these instances, and this problem - will be changed.

If you feel so strongly about driving these changes to the 'industry' perhaps research the email/phone numbers of pertinent Ministers and/or consumer and industry organisations and publish those on a forum so forum members who feel they have a case - or have strong views of the need for these changes - are in a position to do something positive.

Cheers - John

brickies · Guru

When we buy a house we get someone to do a pre purchase inspection , Maybe this might be what needs to happen with RV .

Swoffer · Senior Member

brickies wrote:
When we buy a house we get someone to do a pre purchase inspection , Maybe this might be what needs to happen with RV .

Business opportunity for someone with the relevant experience perhaps .

erad · Guru

Personally, I think that nearly all caravans are built in a shoddy manner. I don't agree with this but there is no option if you want to buy a van. Maybe instead of making a post about Lemon caravans, we should make a post about good caravans and good service. That way, maybe the offenders may be encouraged to try to make the good list because they would then stand out from the crowd? Yes - I know and I still believe in Santa Claus as well. There is nothing wrong and all good in praising some product or service which is exceptional, or even up to what is expected. We are all too ready to bag a service or product when it is bad, but don't seem to do the opposite. The best advertising is by word of mouth. What better way than to start a Goodies Posting instead of a baddies one?

I have had my share of crap built caravans. Normally I either get them fixed under warranty (good luck with that) or I fix it myself. Having done that, for reasons unknown, I seem to sell the van and move on to another and repeat the process. It is a pity that the range of vans offered to the public is so shoddy.

Papou · Senior Member

brickies wrote:
When we buy a house we get someone to do a pre purchase inspection , Maybe this might be what needs to happen with RV .

My sentiments also :)..Most the Caravan Industry today is where the Car Industry was when i was a teenager.. Heaps of lemons and no-one gave a dam!!..

Big bikkies for most vans like the price of lemons in the supermarkets of late lol....

Swoffer · Senior Member

erad wrote:
Maybe instead of making a post about Lemon caravans, we should make a post about good caravans and good service.

Like this perhaps

http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t61854270/the-good-jayco-story-thread/

brickies · Guru

I for one am a happy caravan owner , When we purchased our caravan we did give it a full inspection there were a few little things that was not right , We were told they would book it in for the items to be fixed , We chose to leave the caravan with them and pick it up when the work was completed and would pay for the caravan then . They were happy to do so and delived it to our home . We were very happy with the RV Dealer we treated them with respect and they responded like wise , But we did stick to our rights and all was good .

ken thomas · Guru

Desert Dweller wrote:
We spoke to a bloke that had got burnt with a new van that he'd had built. It had a huge amount of faults that he couldn't get fixed. He'd hired a solicitor, gone to consumer affairs & the ombudsman with no joy from them at all.

He ended up selling it & buying a second-hand Jayco. He had a petition going & an album of photos showing the faults.

He looked a run down nervous wreck when we spoke to him. The company shown went into liquidation but we believe that there is a new dealer with the same name currently operating.
This was about 4 years ago.

-- Edited by Desert Dweller on Wednesday 8th of February 2017 01:37:21 PM

That company did not go into liquidation, still run by the same person and name

Ken

montie · Guru

ants_oz wrote:
Real tough one that.

I honestly believe that the vast majority of people who complain about caravan build quality (etc) don't appreciate that they are talking about a largely custom-built product, manufactured to a market-driven price in most instances, and assembled by hand using a large number of components from a huge number of manufacturers.

People compare them to cars - when in reality they are nothing like a car at all. The engineering that motor vehicle manufacturers put into the process of building new models is insane.

I personally think serial complainers are probably more of an issue than "rogue" manufacturers in the caravan industry. People want the best, aren't prepared to pay what "the best" costs, then complain wildly when what they paid for doesn't meet their expectations.

Ant,
I could add here that the expectations are sometimes a bit high. We can't compare the precision of finish in a caravan with that of a motor vehicle. A motor car is mass produced in a very hi tech manufacturing plant and we sell 1,000,000 of them per year in Australia. On the other hand caravans are manufactured by hand in a much lower tech environment with a very high labour input and we sell 18000 of them a year in Australia. That's a big difference.
As I see it from experience there are three types of faults that are encountered with a new caravan.
1) A perceived fault where something does not meet the expectations of the buyer but is normal for a new caravan. Some examples of this would be cupboard doors with differing gaps, microwave not positioned suitably,too many keys,three way fridge not cold enough etc., etc., There is very little a dealer can do about any of these complaints which sometimes leads to conflict.

2) Minor faults which would include a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc., These are minor faults that can easily be fixed by the dealer and should be. It would be unusual not to encounter any minor issues with a new van after delivery which is why you get a warranty. Some buyers find it hard to accept that these minor issues can occur which is again an unrealistic expectation. So long as they are rectified in a reasonable amount of time there should be no problem.
3) A major fault is one that cannot be rectified or is too difficult to do so. This type of fault would be rare but does happen and would require some action from the manufacturer to negotiate a suitable solution. We have never experienced this kind of situation so have no experience.
Many complaints about new caravans reported on forums relate to weights mainly the tare weight of the van at delivery. The larger main stream manufacturers weigh each individual van as it leaves the factory and whilst not legally required to do so, stamp that weight on the compliance plate. A problem does arise if the manufacturer weighs a proto type and uses that weight on subsequent vans assuming their weight will be the same which is not always the case. Also many of the smaller "rogue" manufacturers do not have an in house scales so it's too much trouble to weigh each van. The problem here is the dealer/manufacturer who does the right thing and weighs his vans gets tarred with the same brush as the the minority of "rogues" who are selling their vans at lower prices.
Montie

meetoo · Guru

montie wrote:

2) Minor faults which would include a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc., These are minor faults that can easily be fixed by the dealer and should be. It would be unusual not to encounter any minor issues with a new van after delivery which is why you get a warranty. Some buyers find it hard to accept that these minor issues can occur which is again an unrealistic expectation. So long as they are rectified in a reasonable amount of time there should be no problem.

Montie

The listed faults shouldn't be there in the first place. One cannot blame customers for being the ones at fault when these things happen. It is shoddy workmanship in the first place, followed by shoddy quality control, by shoddy manufacturers, followed by shoddy dealers who should pick these problems up on predelivery and fix up front, and not leave for the customer to be disadvantaged and then criticised for speaking up about things that they paid good money for in good faith not to be there.
Cheers, John.

-- Edited by meetoo on Thursday 9th of February 2017 03:14:20 PM

Swoffer · Senior Member

John it seems Monty is an RV dealer so he would clearly sing from that particular hymn book .

-- Edited by Swoffer on Thursday 9th of February 2017 03:18:01 PM

Bryan · Guru

Swoffer wrote:
brickies wrote:
When we buy a house we get someone to do a pre purchase inspection , Maybe this might be what needs to happen with RV .

Business opportunity for someone with the relevant experience perhaps .

My sentiments too. Same when buying a used car.

MSG, with regards to price, its just getting over the top and even worse for the so called cross over campers some of which are over $80,000.

Al I bought my little Goldstream and paid a few dollars under $60k. I must admit that I never had any problems whatsoever apart from an awning I ripped off myself blankstare . The dealer was a pleasure to deal with too.

meetoo · Guru

Sorry for the big letters earlier. I must have hit a wrong key somewhere and didn't know how to fix it.

Re started the pc and it is ok now.

Cheers, John.

montie · Guru

meetoo wrote:
Sorry for the big letters earlier. I must have hit a wrong key somewhere and didn't know how to fix it.
Re started the pc and it is ok now.
Cheers, John.

John,

You are obviously one of the people that I referred to earlier who expect manufacturers to build a perfect fault free van. If the car, caravan or boat industries could achieve that result then we can dispense with warranties altogether because there will be no need for them.

Yes I have nothing to hide, I am an RV dealer of nearly 35 years and still going strong because for starters we honour our warranty commitments. I guess it's a bit of a novelty for some posters on here to be given the other side of the story which won't always be what you want to hear.

Montie

msg · Guru

I said earlier that I don't own a caravan. However, I do own a motorhome. It is now 8yrs old.

Everything works and has worked since I bought it. The Aircon, fridge, TV, Shower, toilet, hot water system, gas system, pipes haven't clogged up, water pump still works and cupboards are still intact. All still original equipment. Never had it back to the dealer, except for engine mechanical repairs. (Touch wood). If I could just get all the red dust out of it would be just like new.

This is despite the 90,000ks driven mostly on punishing gravel and outback tracks. It went to Birdsville. Down the west coast, down the centre and around most of QLD out west mainly. Quilpie, Charleville, Bourke and lets not forget the bush past Eromanga, etc.

Perhaps, its the twisting and flexing of the frames in caravans that do the damage? Can this be fixed? Possibly not.

There is still no excuse for them coming off the factory floor with faults.

Swoffer · Senior Member

montie wrote:
. I guess it's a bit of a novelty for some posters on here to be given the other side of the story which won't always be what you want to hear.

Montie

Montie I wouldnt say that at all , at least thats not why I started this thread . Clearly there are 2 sides to this and every story but (at the risk of using too many cliques ) where there is smoke there is usually fire . The site that prompted this thread has a massive following and sure there will be an element of serial whingers there but i say again smoke fire .

As the time for me to hit the road is fast approaching , this topic is making me apprehensive to say the least , obviously I need to seek out Monties place for my purchase .

mumpedo · Member

meetoo wrote:
montie wrote:

2) Minor faults which would include a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc., These are minor faults that can easily be fixed by the dealer and should be. It would be unusual not to encounter any minor issues with a new van after delivery which is why you get a warranty. Some buyers find it hard to accept that these minor issues can occur which is again an unrealistic expectation. So long as they are rectified in a reasonable amount of time there should be no problem.

Montie

The listed faults shouldn't be there in the first place. One cannot blame customers for being the ones at fault when these things happen. It is shoddy workmanship in the first place, followed by shoddy quality control, by shoddy manufacturers, followed by shoddy dealers who should pick these problems up on predelivery and fix up front, and not leave for the customer to be disadvantaged and then criticised for speaking up about things that they paid good money for in good faith not to be there.
Cheers, John.
I agree with John. Why are so many so called 'minor' defects not picked up in quality control and the pre delivery. Surely with both of those only latent defects should be left. Also the consumer law requires a product to be of 'acceptable quality' and this includes being free of defects.

So what Monty is saying is that no RVs are of acceptable quality when they are manufactured and we as consumers spending our tens or hundreds of thousands just have to suck it up.
I also wouldn't consider these to be minor defects either " leaking hatch, ..., squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing". The leaking and poor silicon finishing can have major implications if there has been an unknown quantity of water ingress. An indicator light not working is usually a short and that means faulty electrical wiring. Squeaky brakes may mean dangerous brakes.

So Monty shows us that dealers will at all times try to minimise and call 'minor' that which may actually be major. This causes great frustration in owners. On top of that, would you expect these defects in a $100 000 product? Monty is an industry apologist and denier rather than accepting that the industry needs to be regulated and cleaned up.

Bryan · Guru

meetoo wrote:
montie wrote:

2) Minor faults which would include a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc., These are minor faults that can easily be fixed by the dealer and should be. It would be unusual not to encounter any minor issues with a new van after delivery which is why you get a warranty. Some buyers find it hard to accept that these minor issues can occur which is again an unrealistic expectation. So long as they are rectified in a reasonable amount of time there should be no problem.

Montie

The listed faults shouldn't be there in the first place. One cannot blame customers for being the ones at fault when these things happen. It is shoddy workmanship in the first place, followed by shoddy quality control, by shoddy manufacturers, followed by shoddy dealers who should pick these problems up on predelivery and fix up front, and not leave for the customer to be disadvantaged and then criticised for speaking up about things that they paid good money for in good faith not to be there.
Cheers, John.

-- Edited by meetoo on Thursday 9th of February 2017 03:14:20 PM

I thought you were shouting John biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

montie · Guru

Swoffer wrote:
montie wrote:
. I guess it's a bit of a novelty for some posters on here to be given the other side of the story which won't always be what you want to hear.

Montie
Montie I wouldnt say that at all , at least thats not why I started this thread . Clearly there are 2 sides to this and every story but (at the risk of using too many cliques ) where there is smoke there is usually fire . The site that prompted this thread has a massive following and sure there will be an element of serial whingers there but i say again smoke fire .
As the time for me to hit the road is fast approaching , this topic is making me apprehensive to say the least , obviously I need to seek out Monties place for my purchase .

Swoffer,

You will be very welcome, but I can assure you that there are many other dealers like ours across Australia that have been trading for a very long time on the back of their good service so I can't claim all the credit. You just never hear about them on forums such as this one.

We sell approx 18000 vans per annum and 90% of those are out there living the dream without problem. You only get the bad news on forums unfortunately.

Montie

montie · Guru

mumpedo wrote:

So Monty shows us that dealers will at all times try to minimise and call 'minor' that which may actually be major. This causes great frustration in owners. On top of that, would you expect these defects in a $100 000 product? Monty is an industry apologist and denier rather than accepting that the industry needs to be regulated and cleaned up.

Montie or reputable dealers do not minimise or maximize anything.....we live in a world of reality and deal with our warranty commitments as they arise whilst acting on behalf of the manufacturer.

A major fault can sometimes only exist in the mind of the person who believes it exists.

A definition of a major fault, safety or otherwise, is one that cannot be rectified or is very difficult to do so.

A minor fault is one that can be rectified and that is exactly what all reputable dealers do.

There is a big difference between the world of the keyboard and the world of reality.

Montie