Gday...

Yeah ... I have heard that too.

However, I have met countless CRD owners, of many makes and models, who have more than 200,000Km on the clock and have yet to experience problems.

Who knows when the light globe may blow  

Mine has 216,000Km, (bought with 72,000Km on the clock) at least 120,000km towing my van full-time on the road over the past eight years and doesn't use any oil, water etc, has never caused me to be stopped anywhere with a problem and, at the risk of evoking Murphy, I reckon over the past year it is performing at its best ... Just run-in?

DAMN  I really hope Murphy is not on the forum 

Cheers - John

-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 22nd of January 2017 07:33:35 PM

Less tolorant to bad bad servicing . While the older type will perform slower .. If you said 20 years ago a 2.2 to 3.2 diesel will tow vans like they do now ? You would be sent to mental home !! L

I had a 2015 Kia Sorento 2.2 CRDI with a 7 year unlimited KM warranty, how many manufacturers of the older diesels would have been confident enough to do that ? Too bad I had to sell it with only 14,000kms on the clock but unfortunately it was only rated to pull 2T - someone was fortunate enough to get a used car that still had 6 years new car warranty and roadside assist left on it.

Mechanical complexity compared:

• An old-tech diesel has a mechanical injection pump built to ridiculously fine tolerances, with the complexity of an clockwork watch...but with 'relatively' low pressure of ~4 - 5,000 PSI
• An old-tech diesel will most often have a simple valve train (single OHC, or quite often OHV).
• An old-tech diesel - when turbocharged - will have turbo boost pressure generally controlled in a fixed manner - fixed nozzle, fixed vane.  Boost pressure being a comparatively simple function of turbine speed.
• A new-tech diesel will have a two pumps - a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump (the later running at over 35,000 PSI in most cases)
• A new-tech diesel engine has additional complexities such as exhaust gas recirculation (mechanical system, controlled electronically)
• A new-tech diesel engines turbocharger will have variable boost characteristics - controlled by variable nozzle or vane mechanism.  Boost pressure being controlled by a combined function of turbine speed, AND the control mechanism/s

Electronic complexity compared:

• Old-tech diesel...pretty much "what electronics?"
• New-tech diesel - where to begin and where to end?
  • Sensors essential to the operation of the engine include: coolant temperature, mass air flow (intake air temp, volume and pressure), fuel temperature, fuel (common) rail pressure, (turbo) boost pressure, EGR circumstances.
  • Electronic controllers include: fuel injectors, EGR valve, turbo boost controller, fuel (common) rail pressure relief valve

Materials differences:

• I would say more than 90% of old-tech diesels were cast iron head, cast iron block.  Extremely robust, capable of being re-manufactured many times over
• I would say more than 90% of new-tech diesels are alloy head - which is largely unable to be re-manufactured.  If rebuild is required, then so is replacement of the head (eg, replacement of valve seats etc is often not feasible)

 

"The Emissions Question" (complexities related to diesel engines):

• Old-tech diesels had essentially nothing in the way of modern emissions treatments.  They push out large quantities of exhaust particulates, and huge amounts of nitrous oxides.
• New-tech diesels use various combinations of exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), exhaust catalytic converters (separate to particulate filters), diesel particulate filters (DPF), and diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) post-treatment (brands like adblue which some people are familiar with).

While electronics don't necessarily require greater maintenance than mechanics (in many cases, electronic components require little or NO maintenance throughout their lifetime), every system requires maintenance.  Many consumers seem to think that "electronically controlled" means "maintenance free" - that is simply not the case.   

In my opinion the sheer number of systems on new-tech diesel engines, and their complexity, speaks for itself.

Are new-tech diesel engines more efficient at transforming chemical energy (in the fuel) into mechanical energy (at the crankshaft) than their old-tech ancestors?  Sure - I don't know many people who would debate that.  But are their trade-offs in respect of system complexity and maintenance?  No doubt in my mind.  Does that mean 'less reliable' - I guess it depends on how well the user maintains it, doesn't it :)

(Edit: footnote - this was basically all 'off the top of my head', so if there are gaps in what I've posted - such is life.  After a quick review I can see minor odds and ends which are missing, but nothing that is factually incorrect)

-- Edited by ants_oz on Monday 23rd of January 2017 10:02:58 AM

Desert Dweller wrote:

---

Apparently modern Common Rail Diesel engines of all brands are far more unreliable when they click over a few hundred thousand  kms. That's according to a 4x4 magazine that we recently read.

-- Edited by Desert Dweller on Sunday 22nd of January 2017 07:04:58 PM

---

I can't argue with that but a few hundred thousand Kms would take me 20 years to achieve at my current 20,000km/yr, I think I will replace the car long before then. I know there are people who will do those kms fairly quickly especially taxis etc. but then they need to work out their running cost over time, maybe if it's true it could still be more economical for them just to replace or rebuild the engine a little earlier. Comparing later technologies with earlier ones is probably always going to show that the newer technology is more complex, I can still remember back in the 60s when you could practically get in the engine bay of an old Holden or Falcon to work on it - try doing that that now days (half the time your arm won't even fit in). If given the choice would I prefer an old Holden or Falcon to a new one - I'm sure their are plenty out there who would because they love old cars but I'm not really one of them.

I'm happy with my "old" 4.2TDi with gas injection! Is coming up to 400,000 Kms (after buying it four & a bit years ago with 271,000 on the clock).

While I often get envious sometimes of friends with CRD engines (mainly for better fuel economy), my regular maintenance costs are way less than theirs.

One family I know had a CRD Pajero & it "carbonned" up. They spent over $11,000 getting the engine repaired, then decided to get a new car. They got $5,000 as a trade in & bought another Pajero. Why, I don't know!

Incidently the people (McGuiness Motors) who do my Diesel Gas services in Fyshwick, ACT offer a decoke service for CRD for around $130.

And I read a CW magazine recently - it was suggested that when injectors are replaced in a CRD engine, thought should go to replacing the fuel lines too.

Warren

I'm quite amazed at the power and torque figures pushed out by modern 4 cylinder CRD engines of 2L to 3L capacity, with use of lighter materials without compromise in strength and all aided by

sensors and a computer to monitor it all I don't see any reason they wouldn't last as long as "Old type diesels".

My 4.2TD 6cyl shunts out a blistering 109Kw (with after market turbo) and junket pulling 262Nm of torque way below the figures of todays CRD's

I do get envious when going up hill with a 2.5t van attached and then whoosh!! there goes a 4cyl CRD towing a 3T van flying past.

Even more envious that it's a 35deg day and their windows are up possibly with the air/con on keeping cool inside, and us sweltering because our 4.2TD

overheats at the mention of putting the Air/con on.

Cheers

Vince

Jaahn wrote:

---

Bas + Eve wrote:

---

Water is the big threat to diesel engines especially common rail. The addition of a secondary filter and regular maintenance of both primary and secondary filters will ensure longevity of the engine. Naturally servicing the engine (oil, filter etc) must be the same.

---

 Hi 

I worked in some third world countries in the last century. This statement about water applied then just as it does now. Nothing changed there. HOWEVER all Japanese diesels then had a water seperator fitted as standard with a warning light. Not any more, that is the problem  All diesels had double filtration of some sort.

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 23rd of January 2017 08:50:04 AM

---

The claims of needing a secondary filter or some type of water separator is simply scare tactics by the aftermarket industry to raise more revenue.

Modern diesels don't have an external screw in filter system like days gone by.

The new systems have a dual function plastic cartridge that does the water separation and the filtering down to 3 microns. One simply unscrews a cap and pops in a new $60 filter every 40-60,000km. 

I have a 2005 Prado diesel with 275,000 kms on the clock Never missed a beat and no problems - possibly because always serviced regularly by Toyota Greg

Hylife wrote:

---

Jaahn wrote:

---

Bas + Eve wrote:

---

Water is the big threat to diesel engines especially common rail. The addition of a secondary filter and regular maintenance of both primary and secondary filters will ensure longevity of the engine. Naturally servicing the engine (oil, filter etc) must be the same.

---

 Hi I worked in some third world countries in the last century. This statement about water applied then just as it does now. Nothing changed there. HOWEVER all Japanese diesels then had a water seperator fitted as standard with a warning light. Not any more, that is the problem  All diesels had double filtration of some sort.

Jaahn-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 23rd of January 2017 08:50:04 AM

---

The claims of needing a secondary filter or some type of water separator is simply scare tactics by the aftermarket industry to raise more revenue.

Modern diesels don't have an external screw in filter system like days gone by.

The new systems have a dual function plastic cartridge that does the water separation and the filtering down to 3 microns. One simply unscrews a cap and pops in a new $60 filter every 40-60,000km. 

---

 Hi Hylife 

But the small dual function plastic cartridge has no warning light and if you do get excess water and the associated rust and crap that comes with it, you do not know it is over loaded until the engine starts to misbehave. The 3 micron is OK but with a dual filter the first one keeps the 3 micron filter cleaner by removing the larger crap out first. The industry has been using dual filters on diesels forever for good reason. The old pumps failed too from water and dirt just as badly. 

If you stick to the city with new fuel tanks in the service stations and good fuel, the standard filters and service intervals are OK usually. However if you go further out in Aus you might find it is not so perfect.  Or indeed if you use drums which you fill yourself and fill the tank yourself on the road, can you guarantee your procedures are clean to micron standard ?? If so do not be scared by the aftermarket industry and just use the standard minimum filters.

 

I would agree there is a scare campaign to sell the aftermarket filters, and some prices for 'kits' are a rip off. But the price of the modern pisso injectors and pumps is so high that I would spend the money and get peace of mind too.

Jaahn 

I have an "old Tech" diesel ...now with 250000k on it .No one touches it except me ( I even pull the wheels off myself to get new ones fitted )...and I am almost anal about service and general maintenance....but I expect it will go around and criss-cross this island multiple times until we don't wanna do it anymore....and then someone who wants it can have it for its market value....along with the van.

I put 2 stroke in the fuel...have done for years....and it has 2 water trap - grub catcher filters before the main one ....which is changed every 10000 km.I also treat fuel with Chem tech last fill before filter service. The engine, gearbox and transfer get dosed with the correct amount of MBL 2 each oil change .....and all the drive train runs synthetic oil.

....rear diff included (but no MBL as its a slippery one ).

Its no rocket ship .....but is honest down to the last gee gee...which suits me fine ....as I wanna look at this land as I cruise along ....not see it as a blur.....

 

Cheers  Keith

OOps ...double post.. please Delete.

This forum is so slow to load that I thort it hadn't done it....so clicked on it again.

 

Sorry Folks