legalities with towing mirrors

banditandjo · Veteran Member

legalities with towing mirrors

KFT · Guru

G'day Bandit and Jo

I find a good test is to get the rig straight and look along the side of the van towards your car. If you cannot see most of your mirror then you are going to need towing mirrors to be legal.

I have used several different types over the years but the ones I have now are the best I have ever used.

The Milenco grand aero are easy to put on and off, stay correctly aligned between uses and have not blown back in 30,000 km of travel.

These mirrors are available from caravans plus in either flat or slightly convex.

This is what they look like on my Navara

Frank

IMGP2598 - Copy.JPG

Jetta7 · Veteran Member

Agree with Frank , I changed to the Milenco too great mirrors and easy to use.

my friend has a Prado and the Prado's are known for weak tension on the mirrors , and so his would sometimes fold back when passed by big trucks. We fixed that by putting duct tape on the front section where the mirror swivels and that stopped it.

i know you said you have a Paj , but if they are weak on the hinge section that is a simple solution for a great mirror setup.

my xtrail has travelled 20k with the mirrors on and never blown back and they give a clear image.

you will get lots of recommendations so have fun sorting it out.

and as Frank said best to look along the edge of van towards tug and if you can't see your mirror , you will need to have additional mirrors that can be set to a position so you can, and that's best on both sides.

enjoy your new van and create heaps of memories seeing this land

cheers

Explorer · Guru

Banditandjo Hi,

Simply You must be able to see both rear corners of the van from Your normal driving position. No You do not need to see behind the van. No You cannot travel any distance without being able to see both rear corners and the mirrors must not protrude more than 150mm beyond the vehicle width. When the van is attached the the vehicle width is taken as the van's, disconnect the van & You then need to remove the towing mirrors.

I have a rear view that I use as an aid.

Mike.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Welcome to the gang Banditandjo, enjoy here and out in the playground.

Mirrors, yep, with your set up you must have them.

Recommendations, I have "Clear View" mirrors fitted to my Colorado and highly recommend them. Great clear vission and plenty of it. Also and as well even, no shaking or any sort of movement while driving. Easily folden in when in car parks. Not cheap at all but well worth every cent.

Like most things, it's all a personal choice.

Keep Safe on the roads.

NeilandRaine · Guru

I have a Pajero and it is possible to see down the side of the van but I use the stick on type. Not sure if it is a Pajero thing but I also had the problem of mirrors blowing in.
The mirrors do give you a better picture of the road behind you. We also have a rear view camera and this lets you know when some clown wants to tail gate.

Tones · Veteran Member

Hi Bandit and Jo.

I note that you have asked about the "legalities" concerning mirrors. I have pasted the below reference to the law as it relates to this issue in Queensland. I know that there is equivalent legislation in other States / Territories.

Transport Operations Road Use Management (Vehicle Standard and Safety Regulations 1999) (Schedule 1, Sect. 25)

"24 Rear vision mirrors
(1) A rear vision mirror or mirrors must be fitted to a motor
vehicle as required by this section so that a driver of the
vehicle can clearly see by reflection the road behind the
vehicle and any following or overtaking vehicle.
(2) At least 1 rear vision mirror must be fitted to
(a) a car; and
(b) a motortrike with 2 front wheels; and
(c) a motorbike, or motortrike with 1 front wheel, built
before July 1975.
(3) At least 1 rear vision mirror must be fitted to each side of
(a) a motor vehicle with a GVM over 3.5t; and
(b) a motorbike, or motortrike with 1 front wheel, built after
June 1975.
(4) A motor vehicle with a GVM not over 3.5t, other than a motor
vehicle mentioned in subsection (2) or (3), must be fitted
with
(a) at least 1 rear vision mirror on the right side of the
vehicle; and
(b) at least 1 rear vision mirror on the left side of the vehicle
or inside the vehicle.
(5) A rear vision mirror fitted to a motor vehicle with a GVM
over 3.5t must not project over 150mm beyond the widest
part, excluding lights, signalling devices and reflectors, of the
vehicle or combination.
(6) However, the rear vision mirror may project not over 230mm
beyond the widest part of the vehicle or combination if it can
fold to project not over 150mm beyond the widest part."

If you read the above very carefully, you will also note that it specifically requires a "REFLECTED VIEW". (These are not my words BUT the words in the legislation).

The key to reading and understanding the above concerns the fact that the mirrors must be able to provide the view specified. If they can't, then aux. mirrors are obviously the only way that one can restore the view that is legally required.

Personally, I use both towing mirrors and a Rear view camera to supplement the view afforded by the towing mirrors. Trucks are commonly seen with signs on the rear of their vehicles which read "If you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you".

Food for thought!

Hope this is of some assistance.

Tones

Yabbietol · Veteran Member

Having a Pajero and having the ongoing problem of mirrors folding on drivers side when a truck blasts air when passing is a pain.The Pajero mirrors fold and do this very easily, too easily. I have used the ORA mirrors with the suction cap arms. I have noted two things:

1. I do not need the suction cap on the passenger side mirror, it is does little and if fitted unsticks with change in temp and humidity and pulls the mirror out of alignment. I just use the ORA mirror attached to mirror with no bracing arm and it works fine.
2. The suction cap arm is worse than useless as it comes unstuck and you have to stop to re-stick, unfortunately the ORA mirror on its own still gets knocked back by trucks air blast so the solution is, I have left the the suction cap arms at home and bought one arm with magnetic pad for drivers side mirror. This works really well and I wish I had gone this way in the first place.

caravansplus.com.au/catalog/product_info.php

I did investigate Clearview mirrors and I believe work really well, but the fitting on a NW Pajero required the removal of the door cards and a lot of messing around. I have been told they fit easily on some other brands such as Toyotas. If you doubt this how hard the fitting is to a Pajero, just have a look at the Pajero fitting video on the Clearview site. It will really put you off fitting Clearviews on a Pajero, but if you are skilled and have the time and tools it is possible.

-- Edited by Yabbietol on Friday 5th of February 2016 09:58:33 AM

-- Edited by Yabbietol on Friday 5th of February 2016 10:02:20 AM

DMaxer · Guru

I need an upgrade and I don't know whether to fork out for the Clearviews or have a look (pardon the pun) at the Milenco.

Are there any negatives, KFT?

Cupie · Guru

I considered factors like ...

How deep are your pockets.

How long do you expect to keep your vehicle.

I reckon that the Clearviews are by far the best ... and most expensive but not easily tranferrable between vehicles (I think).

For Clip ons the Milenco Grand Aero are very good & relatively inexpensive as well as being transferrable.

I migrated from my modified 10 year old Ora mirrors to Milenco. They are much better. Very little vibration & a large clear image. I would have liked a longer arm but it is perhaps the maximum legal size. The one I made f or the old mirrors was much longer. But the drivers side Milenco still suffered from foldback. Easily fixed by a flexible strap to a radio aerial bracket.

brickies · Guru

I agree with Cupie , Milenco are the one that will do the job at the right price

mike g g · Senior Member

g/day bandit and joe ,I know the boys with the disco lights on the roof say that they need to be able to see you in the mirror in the drivers seat when they are standing at the back off the van ,I have a set of truck mirrors from repco,on special,with the ractchet wind up and have just returned from wa 12000ks and not a problem have used the strap to mirror type and had problems with semis going past.i tow a 20ft 8 van with my territory .mike g.

-- Edited by mike g g on Friday 5th of February 2016 03:41:26 PM

johnno48 · Veteran Member

Clearview are the best but expensive

littledick · Senior Member

Place an occy strap over the mirror rod and hook the other end rear of bonnet. Mirror wont fold in.

Dick.

PeterD · Guru

banditandjo wrote:
our mirrors can see beside van with no issues but not behind van.

The requirements for mirrors is governed by ADR -14. There is a good diagram showing the requirement in that document.

Mirror Visual Range.JPG

Before the subject of cameras is raised, ADR-14 allows them to be used in lieu of mirrors but two cameras must be used and cover the same field of view shown in the above diagram.

KFT · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
I need an upgrade and I don't know whether to fork out for the Clearviews or have a look (pardon the pun) at the Milenco.
Are there any negatives, KFT?

G'day Dmaxer, I have not found any yet. Very occasionally there may be some vibration due to road surface but even that has not been enough to make the mirror unusable for it's intended purpose.

If I was to be critical of anything it is the lack of electric adjustment!! but then I could get that with Clearviews if I could stand the size of them which I can't.

Frank

Still working · Member

The extra cost for clear views is off set by being able to sell them for a good price when you sell your vehicle.

If you look on clear view 's web site the have a pre loved for sale section.

I got mine on Ebay for $350 absolute bargain and will be able to resell for similar money.

chooknphil · Veteran Member

Hi all. Can someone point me in the direction of where to find the law on seeing the back corners of the caravan for legal use please. Chooknphil

DMaxer · Guru

Thanks for the info KFT.

KFT · Guru

chooknphil wrote:
Hi all. Can someone point me in the direction of where to find the law on seeing the back corners of the caravan for legal use please. Chooknphil

you should have a good look at PeterD post above

RodLainie · Senior Member

We have Clear View,but get the black or the sun will hit the arm and back in your face
Rod

chooknphil · Veteran Member

Hi KFT. I did look at ADR 14. But could not see anything that referred to the back corners of something being towed With grad to mirrors. May have missed it , if someone has the info would be greatly appreciated. Chooknphil

KFT · Guru

chooknphil wrote:
Hi KFT. I did look at ADR 14. But could not see anything that referred to the back corners of something being towed With grad to mirrors. May have missed it , if someone has the info would be greatly appreciated. Chooknphil

This is the road rule that applies and the diagram that PeterD posted shows you what view the rear vision mirrors MUST have.

http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s297.html

the link above refers to road rule 297 and if you look it up on your state road rules site you should find it. I linked to the federal legislation

-- Edited by KFT on Saturday 6th of February 2016 07:27:06 PM

-- Edited by KFT on Saturday 6th of February 2016 09:54:37 PM

hako · Guru

PeterD's "Field of vision of class II mirrors" indicates to me the driver is sitting in the front passengers seat?? KFT's link refers to traffic fines imposed for offences??
I'm with chooknphil inasmuch as I really don't know what the road rules require.
Please don't think I'm nitpicking, I know the intentions are good but if they leave one confused.....

Regards

KFT · Guru

Hako this diagram may be of more benefit

hako · Guru

Thanks KFT .

PeterD · Guru

hako wrote:
PeterD's "Field of vision of class II mirrors" indicates to me the driver is sitting in the front passengers seat??

So what's the problem? The Oz standard incorporates the European standard, they sit on the LHS in Europe. I thought members would have been able to figure this out without me explaining that you have to mirror reverse the European standards to fit out toads. You are going to find more of this as we adopt more and more overseas standards in the interest of freer international trade. We have been doing this amongst Australian states, the responsibility of developing road traffic standards has been shared amongst states instead of each state developing a full suite of standards of their own.

Tones · Veteran Member

Some wrong information creeping into this thread.

If you are going to get pinged for an offence concerning mirrors, it will not be for an offence contrary to the ADR's; it will be for an offence contrary to State or Territory law. The ADR's are the national standard and it is up to the States and Territories to enact complementary legislation to ensure that the intent of ADR's is applied at State or Territory level.

The enforcement role is also vested in the States and Territories, NOT a National Authority.

For example, in Queensland, it is the Transport Operations Road Use Management Legalisation that has been enacted to apply the law. The link below will take you to the State Legislation Database (look under T for Transport Operations Road Use Management etc).

https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/acts_sls/acts_sl.htm

I refer you back to the Legislation and relevant section as mentioned in my previous post.

Hope this is of assistance.

Tones

hako · Guru

PeterD wrote:
hako wrote:
PeterD's "Field of vision of class II mirrors" indicates to me the driver is sitting in the front passengers seat??
So what's the problem? The Oz standard incorporates the European standard, they sit on the LHS in Europe. I thought members would have been able to figure this out without me explaining that you have to mirror reverse the European standards to fit out toads. You are going to find more of this as we adopt more and more overseas standards in the interest of freer international trade. We have been doing this amongst Australian states, the responsibility of developing road traffic standards has been shared amongst states instead of each state developing a full suite of standards of their own.

The problem Peter is that your post inferred that the illustration you included was part of ADR-14. You said:

" The requirements for mirrors is governed by ADR -14. There is a good diagram showing the requirement in that document."

My query was simply why is the driver sitting in the passengers seat....that is the problem.

I hope road safety never requires us to mirror read the regulations.

I do appreciate all the trouble you go to when providing assistance and help to people like me on this forum - sometimes when things appear wrong or unclear in a post if we do not query them we end up ill-informed.

Regards