Break away battery

Phil C · Guru

Break away battery

Olley46 · Guru

Hi Phil C

My breakaway Battery charges when you are hooked up to the tow vehicle,if you have a look at the breakaway battery case when hooked to the tow vehicle ,there should be a light on the front of the b battery box indicating the battery is charging,as far as hooking up to the house battery PHIL I can't help you. Ps I am not a guru though.

Lance C

-- Edited by Olley46 on Monday 13th of July 2015 04:48:24 PM

Phil C · Guru

Cheers Lance, I get mixed messages from google. One forum suggests the ADR says its OK, then there is argument it needs its own battery.. confusion rains..

Cheers for that mate.

Hey Jim · Guru

Hi Phil,

I to am not a G either, but from all boat trailers I have come across in my time, they have to be a total break away separate system.

Just my two dollars worth Or a gold coin donation,keep the change Phil. smile

Dougwe · Chief one feather

I know but can't say cos I'm not a Guru anymore, sorry Phil.

Phil C · Guru

Now this is adding up to be a pretty sum. Just coining with you. Yipes

The Doo crew · Senior Member

NT rules state that the trailer must have its own battery that can maintain the brakes engaged for 15 minutes when not connected to the tow vehicle & switch activated.
My car trailer had a toolbox on the front with a winch battery fitted, the breakaway was wired into that.
Charged from the park light circuit while driving & a small solar panel to maintain the charge while parked up, built it myself & passed all the checks for rego.

Cant see why the house battery cant be used if you have an indicator visible to show the charge state when you hook up.

Delta18 · Guru

Phil C wrote:
Hi folks
Are there any rules, standards ADRs etc that make it unlawful for the break away system being connected to the main house batteries? Any guru on these matters I would love to hear from you.
Cheers

I hope not as that is how mine are set up.

Provided the house battery can apply, and hold applied the brakes for 15 minutes you are ok.

If the van/ tow car are licensed in NSW the driver must have a monitor visible from the driving position showing the state of charge of the battery.

Baz421 · Guru

Phil C wrote:
Hi folks
This may have been discussed before, so if it has I apologise, in answering please don't direct me to another post, I need a direct answer as this break away thing is peeing me off... rant done...
Are there any rules, standards ADRs etc that make it unlawful for the break away system being connected to the main house batteries? Any guru on these matters I would love to hear from you.
Cheers

Phil If it helps, ADR's are not implemented retrospectively, so if your house battery runs the breakaway system then so be it.

ADR's apply when a vehicle is built and states/territories often apply them in-service ie for the life of the vehicle.

What does change from time to time is the state/Territory legislation which is again "mostly" not retrospective legislation.

It may be true that some states impose rules ie NSW registered vehicles with indicator inside the cabin etc.

Cheers Baz

landy · Guru

Phil to the best of my knowledge our 2012 3.2 ton van has no separate battery for the breakaway system.
Landy

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Perhaps I am missing something here. confuse

The Break-Safe system has its own battery - a 12v 7Ahr rechargeable battery.

This is kept charged from the vehicle - in the majority of cases. Although there is no reason I could see that the battery within the Break-Safe system could not be kept charged via the van's house battery.

It is the 12v 7Ah rechargeable battery WITHIN the Break-Safe system that will (or should) operate and maintain the brakes of the van for the mandatory 15mins should the van separate from the tow vehicle.

It is NOT the vehicle battery or the van house battery that will be what maintains the braking in such an emergency.

Feel free to shoot me down .. but that is how all the paperwork and information I can find tells me it works. hmm

cheers - John

greyhoundtom · Senior Member

If the registrations requirements in NSW necessitate that where a Breakaway system is fitted the Breakaway battery condition be able to be monitored from the tow vehicle, it is a bit difficult to see that this could mean anything other than the actual battery fitted to the Breakaway unit.

All I know is that in my own van, a Jayco Sterling, that unit is fitted in a separate cupboard below the left wardrobe.
I have fitted a suitable charger in the same space that charges the battery every time 240 volt power is connected to the van just for my peace of mind knowing there is at least a fair chance that the battery is functional and the unit able to do its job if required.

All the same I worry enough about safety device functionality to include checking the battery condition as part of my pre-travel check list.

Phil C · Guru

greyhoundtom wrote:
If the registrations requirements in NSW necessitate that where a Breakaway system is fitted the Breakaway battery condition be able to be monitored from the tow vehicle, it is a bit difficult to see that this could mean anything other than the actual battery fitted to the Breakaway unit.

All I know is that in my own van, a Jayco Sterling, that unit is fitted in a separate cupboard below the left wardrobe.
I have fitted a suitable charger in the same space that charges the battery every time 240 volt power is connected to the van just for my peace of mind knowing there is at least a fair chance that the battery is functional and the unit able to do its job if required.

All the same I worry enough about safety device functionality to include checking the battery condition as part of my pre-travel check list.

Ah, that's exactly what I have been doing. Reason I asked this was that I wanted a cheap 7AH battery. I figured that I have one sitting on the breakaway system why not use it?

The first trip we went on I checked the battery after 4 months of no activity and it was as flat as a tack. I bought a Ctek 5 amp charger so its fully charged and conditioned every time I hook up 240V. Interesting that they don't tell you that when you pick up the caravan.

OK I will leave the 7AH in the breakaway and buy a thumper...

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

KevKim37 · Senior Member

This informs that as long as a trailer/caravan has a Battery that is Charged from the Towing vehicle as A Requirement and Do Not necessarily have to have a Separate Battery for Brake Away operation. The Device being the Electric Brake Away Switch and in NSW all new large Trailers/Caravans exceeding 2 Tonnes GVM must be fitted with above and a Driver Warning System for Battery Condition.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/examiners/vib-06-guidelines-light-vehicle-modifications-large-trailers.pdf

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Have I misread the NSW RMS instructions contained in the link? confuse

This is snipped from the document in the link - from the testing procedures, it details ...

breaksafe-al 01.JPG

I would suggest, and am willing to be corrected, that "disconnecting the trailer wiring plug from the hauling unit" will NOT activate the Break-Safe system.

The Break-Safe system will ONLY activate if the pin circled in this pic is removed from the black box. confuse

breaksafe-al 02.jpg

Surely NSW is not THAT different from the rest of Australia ? confuse

Interestingly, NSW RMS states (extract shown below) that as long as there is "... an energy source, such as a, battery carried on the trailer" the Break-Safe system is compliant confuse

breaksafe-al 03.jpg

The Break-Safe system comes with its OWN battery (a 12v 7Ahr rechargeable) included within and it is stipulated quite clearly in the installation procedures for the Break-Safe system that it be wired so that the INCLUDED battery is to be charged ("energised") by connection to the vehicle's charging system.

As an aside, I cannot see how the 12v 7Ahr rechargeable battery will have its charge maintained by being connected to the 12v van "house" battery.

I understand that the van "house" battery is being maintained by solar charge (in Phil C's case) but can one 12V battery 'maintain the charge' of another 12V battery? I don't know, that is a genuine question. confuse

In the instructions that come with the Break-Safe system it states that should the charge of the 12v 7Ahr battery within the unit require charging then it should be connected to a "small battery charger (8 AMPS MAXIMUM) to the red and black terminals on the front of the Break-Safe box." The BOLD/CAPS emphasis is how Break-Safe (RVElectronics) show it in their instrutions.

I do apologise for my long-winded and probably uninformed ramble ... but I am thoroughly confused by this thread and, in particular, the NSW RMS instruction/regulation.

Cheers - John

Phil C · Guru

Thanks guys.. interesting thread

As I have said the breakaway battery is now charged from an independent charger when connected to 240V, other than the caravan 12 volt system. It was flat when we started our last trip after a few months of no towing.

My major question was whether I could remove the 7AH battery and re route the feed to the house batteries which are solar charged and 240V when connected, meaning that the breakaway system will have plenty of current to meet the requirements. Seems there is confusion, as usual, with the different state rules etc. I do wish they would get their acts together.

If I choose to keep the 7AH battery with the breakaway system I will wire a small digital voltmeter inside the tug. If I connect to the house batteries there is no need as these batteries are constantly on charge or conditioning cycles. Is there any rules that will stop me from either option? Again, all that I can understand is that the system must be connected to a supply (battery) that will keep the brakes, and brake lights on for 15 mins on a hill. I cant see (other than this install instructions) where that battery has to be ON the unit.

I just want to free up a small battery for another use. My thinking is why have a 7AH battery when 3 feet away is 220AH?

John to answer your question yes it can be charged that way, but its not good technical practice to have different AH batteries connected together, mind you no catastrophic meltdowns, just shortened lives of the batteries. It must be remembered that as soon as you hook up the 240V the whole system is on charge. For the life of me I cant figure out why the breakaway battery misses out.

Cheers

-- Edited by Phil C on Tuesday 14th of July 2015 03:10:34 PM

migra · Senior Member

The remote battery monitor is only required for NSW registered caravans.

It is not an ADR but a NSW regulation. An ADR is a national requirement.

The goss is that there is discussion between the states of having this device fitted to caravans registered in any state.

The NSW caravan owners are asking why NSW is the only state this device is required and other state registered caravans can travel through NSW with out this device.

It is a wait and see.

To clarify it operation just ring R V Electronics in South Australia 08 82613500, they would be happy to answer any questions.

You must also have a label affix to the A frame of the trailer stating "all vehicles towing this trailer must be equipped with a 12 volt charging circuit and a breakaway remote battery monitor"

The orange charge light on the breakaway box in the caravan will illuminate on the front panel when the trailer is connected to the tow vehicle.

Baz421 · Guru

Phil C wrote:
Thanks guys.. interesting thread

As I have said the breakaway battery is now charged from an independent charger when connected to 240V, other than the caravan 12 volt system. It was flat when we started our last trip after a few months of no towing.

My major question was whether I could remove the 7AH battery and re route the feed to the house batteries which are solar charged and 240V when connected, meaning that the breakaway system will have plenty of current to meet the requirements. Seems there is confusion, as usual, with the different state rules etc. I do wish they would get their acts together.

If I choose to keep the 7AH battery with the breakaway system I will wire a small digital voltmeter inside the tug. If I connect to the house batteries there is no need as these batteries are constantly on charge or conditioning cycles. Is there any rules that will stop me from either option? Again, all that I can understand is that the system must be connected to a supply (battery) that will keep the brakes, and brake lights on for 15 mins on a hill. I cant see (other than this install instructions) where that battery has to be ON the unit.

I just want to free up a small battery for another use. My thinking is why have a 7AH battery when 3 feet away is 220AH?
John to answer your question yes it can be charged that way, but its not good technical practice to have different AH batteries connected together, mind you no catastrophic meltdowns, just shortened lives of the batteries. It must be remembered that as soon as you hook up the 240V the whole system is on charge. For the life of me I cant figure out why the breakaway battery misses out.

Cheers

-- Edited by Phil C on Tuesday 14th of July 2015 03:10:34 PM

Phil You have a SA registered vehicle so no problem, HOWEVER, if registered in NSW your vehicle would fail inspection. The advice is in the tech bulletin published above.

Agree with you 100% about house batteries,,, ours are 400aH plus and NEVER been flat in 8 years, HOWEVER I have seen heaps of the "piddling" 7aH ones flat AND OWNERS TOTALLY UNAWARE OF THIS.

Baz421 · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Have I misread the NSW RMS instructions contained in the link?
This is snipped from the document in the link - from the testing procedures, it details ...

Hi John As I see this it is left column IDENTIFIES - breakaway system protection (not the normal light/brakes/earth plug) so you KNow what they are referring to.

The middle column is the ACTION ie remove the trailer wiring plug (as in your pic circled).

The right column is the OUTCOME ie when plug is pulled out the brakes come on and stay on.

This is lousy wording IMHO and I used to write these bulletins years ago - however ADR's are even worse to interpret and write a common sense tech bulletin that all can understand.

rockylizard · Guru

Baz421 wrote:

Hi John As I see this it is left column IDENTIFIES - breakaway system protection (not the normal light/brakes/earth plug) so you KNow what they are referring to.
The middle column is the ACTION ie remove the trailer wiring plug from the hauling unit (as in your pic circled).
I fully understand the middle column is the "ACTION". You left out "from the hauling unit". The Pin I have circled in the photo is NOT connected to the hauling unit. The action to test the system is incorrect in their instructions to test. If one were to simply 'remove the cable from the hauling unit' nothing would happen to the brake ... the PIN must be removed from the casing that holds it in place 'isolating' the circuit that will activate the brakes when THE PIN is removed.
The right column is the OUTCOME ie when plug is pulled out the brakes come on and stay on.

This is lousy wording IMHO and I used to write these bulletins years ago - however ADR's are even worse to interpret and write a common sense tech bulletin that all can understand.

Baz421 · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Baz421 wrote:

Hi John As I see this it is left column IDENTIFIES - breakaway system protection (not the normal light/brakes/earth plug) so you KNow what they are referring to.
The middle column is the ACTION ie remove the trailer wiring plug from the hauling unit (as in your pic circled).
I fully understand the middle column is the "ACTION". You left out "from the hauling unit". The Pin I have circled in the photo is NOT connected to the hauling unit. The action to test the system is incorrect in their instructions to test. If one were to simply 'remove the cable from the hauling unit' nothing would happen to the brake ... the PIN must be removed from the casing that holds it in place 'isolating' the circuit that will activate the brakes when THE PIN is removed.
The right column is the OUTCOME ie when plug is pulled out the brakes come on and stay on.

This is lousy wording IMHO and I used to write these bulletins years ago - however ADR's are even worse to interpret and write a common sense tech bulletin that all can understand.

Symantics John and hard to fathom I agree,,,

BUT THE INTRUCTION IS DISCONNECT THE TRAILER WIRING PLUG The wiring plug sits in the connector with the 2 wires attached to the aframe, ie you pull on the blue wire and out comes the plug, from the connector.

Now I know the wording is not good in the bulletin,,, try assuming you are the inspector do x y z etc and it can,,, just make some sense.

Phil C · Guru

Baz421 wrote:
Phil C wrote:
Thanks guys.. interesting thread

As I have said the breakaway battery is now charged from an independent charger when connected to 240V, other than the caravan 12 volt system. It was flat when we started our last trip after a few months of no towing.

My major question was whether I could remove the 7AH battery and re route the feed to the house batteries which are solar charged and 240V when connected, meaning that the breakaway system will have plenty of current to meet the requirements. Seems there is confusion, as usual, with the different state rules etc. I do wish they would get their acts together.

If I choose to keep the 7AH battery with the breakaway system I will wire a small digital voltmeter inside the tug. If I connect to the house batteries there is no need as these batteries are constantly on charge or conditioning cycles. Is there any rules that will stop me from either option? Again, all that I can understand is that the system must be connected to a supply (battery) that will keep the brakes, and brake lights on for 15 mins on a hill. I cant see (other than this install instructions) where that battery has to be ON the unit.

I just want to free up a small battery for another use. My thinking is why have a 7AH battery when 3 feet away is 220AH?
John to answer your question yes it can be charged that way, but its not good technical practice to have different AH batteries connected together, mind you no catastrophic meltdowns, just shortened lives of the batteries. It must be remembered that as soon as you hook up the 240V the whole system is on charge. For the life of me I cant figure out why the breakaway battery misses out.

Cheers

-- Edited by Phil C on Tuesday 14th of July 2015 03:10:34 PM
Phil You have a SA registered vehicle so no problem, HOWEVER, if registered in NSW your vehicle would fail inspection. The advice is in the tech bulletin published above.
Agree with you 100% about house batteries,,, ours are 400aH plus and NEVER been flat in 8 years, HOWEVER I have seen heaps of the "piddling" 7aH ones flat AND OWNERS TOTALLY UNAWARE OF THIS.

Cheers Baz, that was exactly my problem last trip. I assumed that the breakaway batt would be charged from the normal house charger, WRONG!!!! we left with zero volts in that battery. I got a charger for the battery and figure hat if its connected to the house battery I am much safer.

Phil C · Guru

In Conclusion....

I will be removing the 7AH battery and connecting the house batts to the breakaway system. It wont hurt the batts to get an extra charge from the tug...

Thanks for the input guys, as usual the rules are as clear as mud and only make sense to lawyers and Rhodes scholars.

Cheers

Treecrest14 · Senior Member

I'm told it is OK to use the van battery, but beware of the requirement that there must be a visible indication that the battery is charged! Now in NSW that visible display has to be in the towing vehicle.

Phil C · Guru

Treecrest14 wrote:
I'm told it is OK to use the van battery, but beware of the requirement that there must be a visible indication that the battery is charged! Now in NSW that visible display has to be in the towing vehicle.

Cheers Glen, I will be putting a meter in the car.

migra · Senior Member

In NSW a 12V meter is not acceptable and therefore not compliant. The remote battery monitor must be the one supplied by R V Electronics as it works within the breakaway battery electronics.

Baz421 · Guru

migra wrote:
In NSW a 12V meter is not acceptable and therefore not compliant. The remote battery monitor must be the one supplied by R V Electronics as it works within the breakaway battery electronics.

Don't know where you got this idea,,, the NSW RTA bulletin doesn't say this at all.

Governments DO NOT specify in legislation or subordinate legislation ie this Inspectors Bulletin 6 mentioned in this post ANY COMMERCIAL PRODUCT.

If a voltmeter s fitted you will soon see if it is charging the battery.

Phil C · Guru

Anyway, my van is registered in SA and not subject to these arcane legislations. Cant understand why Australia cant have the same road rules all over this country.. then again, that's political...

I will probably buy the SETEC device and be able to monitor every heartbeat of the battery.

Cheers

aussie_paul · Guru

Glad that is not mandatory when visiting NSW!!

Aussie Paul. smile

Phil C · Guru

Agree with that Paul, this whole road rules stuff makes me chunder.