How do I Earth a 700w Gentrax Generator?

jokirt · Member

How do I Earth a 700w Gentrax Generator?

Phil C · Guru

Hi and welcome to our forum.

As far as I am made aware there is no need to earth your generator, my Honda book says a similar thing but I believe AS3001 (the standard for caravans electrical etc) calls for no earth connection on inverters or generators. Perhaps a more standards educated poster will give you chapter and verse on that one.

Bottom line is it doesn't call for an earth and in fact it would not be legal and perhaps dangerous to have one.

Please keep in mind the caravan safety switch will not work when on the generator.

Cheers

dragonfly1 · Senior Member

You do not have to earth your generator

Dragonfly1

greyhoundtom · Senior Member

Phil C wrote:
Hi and welcome to our forum.

As far as I am made aware there is no need to earth your generator, my Honda book says a similar thing but I believe AS3001 (the standard for caravans electrical etc) calls for no earth connection on inverters or generators. Perhaps a more standards educated poster will give you chapter and verse on that one.

Bottom line is it doesn't call for an earth and in fact it would not be legal and perhaps dangerous to have one.

Please keep in mind the caravan safety switch will not work when on the generator.

Cheers

I'm now confused when you say that the van's safety switch would not work if the van is plugged into a generator, and that generators should not be earthed.

If the van was plugged into the power supply at a caravan park it would be earthed via the earth of that power supply, and this would then allow the safety switch to function as designed.

Would not the same occur if the generator and the earth connection from that generator power supply was correctly earthed at the generator?

i would have thought that any power supply that you connect your van to, regardless of the source, would need to have a functional earth.

Cheers, Tom

Phil C · Guru

Hi Tom,

No the safety switch will not work even if you earth the generator to the mass of earth via an earth rod. I believe this is why the standard called that idea a bad one. Im not aware of any short cut for this problem other than a different safety switch called a residual voltage device, this will protect you if you have an accident inside the van when you are on the generator.

We use our generator only for charging the batteries on a cloudy day when the solar doesn't do much.

I wouldn't get too worried, just don't earth the gen and be careful when you are running it for the caravan. Your better person to assist you here is either PeterQ or PeterD. These bloke know their standards and technical reasons really well. Ive been out of the trade way too long.

Cheers

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

If you want improved safety when plugged into a generator (or inverter) change the RCD to an RVD (residual voltage devise).
Google it - costs about $200 plus (simple) installation, but will give better protection.

Cheers,
Peter

greyhoundtom · Senior Member

Thanks Phil I appreciate the reply even though I don't understand the science behind it.

From another site

[Quote]You've raised a valid point regarding the earthing of your caravan, yes it does sit on at least two rubber tyres and a rubber jockey wheel so it isn't actually connected directly to the planet earth. What happens with your caravan is every part of the metal frame, skin and chassis are required to be bonded to the earth conductor of your 240 Volt supply. That bonding point is also required to be accessible for inspection and maintenance.

My take on portable equipment and earthing is this, you absolutely must have a Residual Current type Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker as close as possible to the generator outlet. Everything you run off the generator MUST be downstream of this device.
For me, when running a generator that is NOT subject to a Mines or Workcover ruling, (Both these requirements overrule anything I say or use) I bond the earth to the neutral, UPSTREAM of the Residual Current device.
Why? I'm creating an Multiple Earthing Neutral (MEN) Link just like your house has. What advantage does it offer? There is no path to earth downstream of the ELCB that the ELCB cannot detect. The system is reasonably fail safe.

Generator outputs float above earth, neither side is actually tied to earth. Unlike the MEN system in a house.
Therefore the Active and Neutral of a generator supply are each at the same potential above earth meaning each has the same ability to pass current to earth.

Don't forget when using portable generating plant it's possible to connect yourself between Neutral and Earth and die. Less than 20mA will stop your heart."[Quote]

I found this an interesting explanation, and I'm particularly intrigued by the idea that both the neutral and the negative of the AC current should be bonded to ensure function of the safety switch.
How that affects the earth of the batteries I have no idea as I obviously mistakenly assumed that the earth of the battery was also bonded to the frame of the van.
Bugger I'm getting too damn old to get my head around all this. :(

-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Thursday 25th of June 2015 07:12:25 PM

greyhoundtom · Senior Member

To follow on to the above as I'm still trying to get at least a basic understanding of how the 240 av voltage and t he 12 volt battery systems in the van functions.

I have to accept that the body of the van as well as the body of the tow vehicle are at the same earth potential and connected to the negative side of the batteries wherever they are located as well as the negative side of any battery chargers and solar panels.

At the same time the body of the van and therefore the body of the tug are connected to the earth wire of the 240 volt wiring in the van, and at various times the whole lot will also be connected to the MEN earth system of the caravan park and/or a generator, and could conceivably also be connected to the earth system of an inverter as well via the battery negative which is connected to the tug and van.

Looking at all that to get the ELCB to function in such a way as to protect someone that came in touch with the positive side of the 240 feed and the body of the van both the negative of the 240 and the earth would need to be bonded into a MEN configuration as with a floating system both positive and negative of the 240 supply would at the same potential.g

Bugger I do have to stop thinking about all this right now as I really do have a headache. :(

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi

First things that should be pointed out are"

[a]Do not attempt to carry out the suggested mods to the generator wiring

You could end up killing yourself or some one else

Such work SHALL only be carried out by a licensed electrician!

There are strict requirements in the Standards that have to be met!.

Irrespective of what ANY portable generator manual may say,

The Australian recommendation for safe use is:

"An earth e stake is neither required or recommended

DO NOT deliberately connect your generator to mother earth by any means"

[that includes earth stakes or connecting to ANY earthed[to mother earth structure ,water pipes etc]

You can actually do harm with no good!.

The other safety recommendation is to never connect more than ONE class 1 device at any time

Class1 have 3pin plugs, &your van would be that ONE class 1 device where the risk could develop if you used another Class 1 in the van

As suggested by Peter

Get A RVD from Safelec technologies installed in the van that will allow safe use from shocks to earth with ALL your class 1 devices

Even when using the generator plugged into the van inlet socket smile

The theory behind earthing , RCD use & operation is a little complex

Earthing in itself is becoming more & more complex & not something for DIYers to paly around with

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 25th of June 2015 11:11:48 PM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

I note our 2007 motorhome has a switch from gen, inverter , mains, off..
So there's ONE power supply at a time .. All feed through RCD / breakers..
Btw this ruling is the same with domestic homes too...As in ONE supply ..

12v is 12v as it doesn't wave .. Two sources of 240v could end up being 415v ( opposing phases) If wired wrong.. Besides remember the "alternating" ( wave) it needs to be synchronised .. Too techy to even consider.. I can assure you it'll blow every device
Starting from the most expensive !! With opposing 240v power supplies ..

jokirt · Member

I just want to charge my battery when the solar panels are not operating.

Phil C · Guru

jokirt wrote:
I just want to charge my battery when the solar panels are not operating.

If you are careful as normal, that should not be an issue. All the very best.

oldtrack123 · Guru

jokirt wrote:
I just want to charge my battery when the solar panels are not operating.

The simplest & safest way is to connect the battery charger itself,direct to the generator using an extension lead if necessary

If that involves the lead going through a window or door opening just make sure the ext lead cannot be damaged by being jammed by window or door closing on it

Or for full SAFE use of the generator, by plugging it into the van power inlet ,get a" Safelec" RVD fitted in the van

Available @

info@powerstream.com.au

PeterQ

Ontos45 · Guru

Try this PDF for a good explanation on RVD's.

http://www.powersafe.net.au/pdf/duosafety.pdf

Baz421 · Guru

Ontos45 wrote:
Try this PDF for a good explanation on RVD's.
http://www.powersafe.net.au/pdf/duosafety.pdf

Yes a good explanation thanks Ontos.

I have one of these waiting home in SA to be installed before next trip,, see this link. The 16A 3 module was about $140 I think.

http://www.powersafe.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/PDF30.pdf

greyhoundtom · Senior Member

Thanks guys, I promise not to stuff around with any electrical systems in the van and have a RVD fitted professionally.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Only issue is your not a bird on the wire stepping out of van... Poor dogs peeing on tyres .. Lol

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

I think we may have misunderstood the earth..
Looking at generators , I see an equal potential earth bond ..
Which is separate from wireing system.. I would say if it's built in ?
Connect the bond to chassis or metal frame ... Only if it's built in though ..

oldtrack123 · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
I think we may have misunderstood the earth..
Looking at generators , I see an equal potential earth bond ..
Which is separate from wireing system.. I would say if it's built in ?
Connect the bond to chassis or metal frame ... Only if it's built in though ..

Hi

The problem is the term "Earth" in itself means little

Simply because it covers a wide range of Electrical set ups wink s

In the case of a portable generator, used with a appliance of any sort connected by a plug the only"earth"connection required is that in the ACTUAL lead[extension &/or appliance lead

The fact that the generator frame is also connected to the generator socket"earth" is that ALL shall be eqipotently bonded

The system then is simply an equipotently bonded "earth system ,NOT M.E. N , NOT "EN"

Thesame appies with the generator plugged into a van power inlet

The whole lot generator, van frame [earthing system] is equipotentially bonded to the generator

Not bonded to mother "earth"

IF permanenty wired into a van,with a change over system,the system Shall be wired to be a E.N system ["Earthed " Neutral]

Then if wired into the mains as a standby unit ,it SHALL be wired as a M.E.N.system using the main's "earth for connection to mother "earth"

So as can be seen the term "earth can mean many different set ups including other systems that are notv relevent to this forum

'

"

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 6th of July 2015 12:57:14 PM

Delta18 · Guru

Can the RVD be fitted DIY , ie plug & play or is that a sparky job?

oldtrack123 · Guru

Delta18 wrote:
Can the RVD be fitted DIY , ie plug & play or is that a sparky job?

HI

No that type is not available at the present time

Although it may be sometime in the future

The present one has to be installed PERMANENTLY on the generator by an elecrician

It requires some wiring mods wink

Contact" info@ powerstream.com.au " for more information

Baz421 · Guru

Had our 3 module Duo ESD fitted today, 16A 10kA.

http://www.powersafe.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/PDF30.pdf

No dramas just needed to tap into existing earth system and bring earth to the Duo ESD for connection.

We have a good sparky approx. $225 (cost and fitting).

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yes the earth means many things.. The problem if base or frame isn't bonded it can become live and touching frame and key will cause shock.. The generate r I was looking at didn't seem to have any internal earth or wires from elect circuit ...
I'm talking about generator in van or motorhome ..
Not sitting on ground as stand alone ..

oldtrack123 · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Yes the earth means many things.. The problem if base or frame isn't bonded it can become live and touching frame and key will cause shock.. The generate r I was looking at didn't seem to have any internal earth or wires from elect circuit ...
I'm talking about generator in van or motorhome ..
Not sitting on ground as stand alone ..

Hi

Iam sure that if you have an "Approved" generator it will have a bond between the Generator body/frame & the outlet socket EARTH terminal

That has been a requirement for a very looooong time[at least 60years]

Then the lot is equiptoentially bonded to the VAN by the earth cable in the extension lead

But a RCD iin the van,etc is NOT functional

If a generator is permanently wired into a van etc [via change over switches] it SHALL be wired in accordance with AS/NZS 3001.

The earth/neutral bond is performed by the change over switching,so that the RCD is fully operational on generator supply

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 6th of July 2015 11:00:58 PM

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi Neil and Lynn
I apologise for not getting back to you in the time frame as depicted and I wlll try to do better in future.
As I told you in the email that was late arriving I had two options where actually there are three but the third one is costly freight wise as it incurs transportation of the generator .
The two available is the caravan input install of the RVD-EMR-16A to replace the existing double pole breaker in the van and the second is a new product that is portable for after market use of generators and due for release this month.
We are thinking and designing all the time and we have also just finished a Subaru 1700I Inverter generator with a plug and play kit and we are now looking to adapt the same installation for the Honda 2EU and hopefully the Yamaha.
We are also working on a new design for Hire Pack Generators that have a legal requirement on them to be safer than a standard generator and this design will greatly improve the usability for those applications.
Please bear with us if we are a bit slow at times we are all for safety of use for isolated power systems.
This post is not an advertisement it is hoped it is considered a statement of safety fact but if it is thought of otherwise please delete it.

Delta18 · Guru

Hi Neil and Lynn
I apologise for not getting back to you in the time frame as depicted and I wlll try to do better in future.
As I told you in the email that was late arriving I had two options where actually there are three but the third one is costly freight wise as it incurs transportation of the generator .
The two available is the caravan input install of the RVD-EMR-16A to replace the existing double pole breaker in the van and the second is a new product that is portable for after market use of generators and due for release this month.
We are thinking and designing all the time and we have also just finished a Subaru 1700I Inverter generator with a plug and play kit and we are now looking to adapt the same installation for the Honda 2EU and hopefully the Yamaha.
We are also working on a new design for Hire Pack Generators that have a legal requirement on them to be safer than a standard generator and this design will greatly improve the usability for those applications.
Please bear with us if we are a bit slow at times we are all for safety of use for isolated power systems.
This post is not an advertisement it is hoped it is considered a statement of safety fact but if it is thought of otherwise please delete it.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yes it's an approved Onan 5kw generater in my Winebago..
I was looking just the other day at Masters ..
They have what looks like a 6mm bond wire..
On all there different brand generators ..
I'll call it a bonding wire so it doesn't get confused with the earth system..

in any case you shouldn't be playing with it unless...

oldtrack123 · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Yes it's an approved Onan 5kw generater in my Winebago..
I was looking just the other day at Masters ..
They have what looks like a 6mm bond wire..
On all there different brand generators ..
I'll call it a bonding wire so it doesn't get confused with the earth system..
in any case you shouldn't be playing with it unless...

Hi

You may also have noted that some of their's also have "earth fault protection " biggrin

Asked the sales man how it worked & all I got was total garble. furious

As to how good or what system ????

But it is a good sign that makers are starting to understand the risks biggrin

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 8th of July 2015 12:50:35 PM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yes the bonding I'm referring to is. Behind any protection as in if there's a fault in generator or wires to protection..
Much the same as SMB on domestic house or TBS on building site..