Is doing this with an inverter a good idea...

oldtrack123 · Guru

RE: Is doing this with an inverter a good idea...

Phil C · Guru

madaboutled wrote:
I've read through all the posts here and fully agree with what PeterQ, PeterD & Phil C are all have said here but no one has yet to mention safety testing. RCD's are great little devices, Are they working correctly??? Have they been tested??? and if so, When??? Then there's all your leads and appliances both Class 1 and Class 2, do you really know if they are safe??? When was the last time you had any of this tested??? answer for most is probably never. But anything electrical should be tested on a regular basis even if only for piece of mind. Yes its an extra expence, but what price do you put on you and your's safety.
My 5 cents worth is that if you should have everything checked for your own piece of mind, most people that do Test and Tagging for commercial requirements can saftey check all your appliances and RCD's even the RCD's on generators. Also note that eventually it will be a requirement for your caravan leads that plug into caravan park power boxes to have a current test/tag on them. I believe that some council run caravan parks and showgrounds are starting to insist on this and have been told some caravan parks in Victoria are.

Cheers Steve,

i offer a free testing service with an out of cal megger but won't tag the appliance. It's only a service for GNs who have no worries with no tags.

We recently visited a CP in Vic where they insisted the main lead was tagged. When I told them I will do that they again insisted that its their job to do so at $10 a crack, we moved on. Since then I have tagged all my 240v gear.

Cheers

Phil C · Guru

JayDee wrote:
I am a Dummy when it comes to this stuff. Let's see
First up we have roof solar panels to power battery.
WE have all lights, a fan on 12 volt as well as our TV and radio.
Fridge 3 way. Gas heater for hot water.
Diesel Heater plus it is also connected to battery.( Of course)
Just installed a pure sine wave 360 watt inverter connect directly to battery for the charging of Computers, phones, dongles, kindle etc.etc.
When bush camping we use gas,for kettle, Fridge, and all cooking etc.
We also use our Generator when we use of Lemar wash. machine and Air/con. and if necessary to charge the van battery.
Have had no problems to date.
I am assuming that we are doing everything right.
Is that correct????????

So what is our A class 1 appliance.
Is it an

electric Jug/ Toaster / Sandwich maker/.large hair dryer etc etc?????
We never use these 240 when camping.

As I said every thing seems to work ok, as per the above.
Houston.... Do I have a problem.
Jay&Dee

Thanks Frank, when the piggy bank gets fatter my van gets a RVD.

Phil C · Guru

KFT wrote:
G'day Phil

mate just fit an RVD to the genny and you will be fine

while you are at it replace the RCD in the van with an RVD as well then all good for any supply method.

Thanks Frank, when the piggy bank gets a bit fatter I will fit a RVD, seems to resolve a number of safety issues when on the gen. Hope you are well mate.

Phil C · Guru

I'm surprised this has not been said before

Class 1 earthed. No square within square.
Class 2 there will be two squares (square within square) on the label or compliance plate of the appliance

That solves the debate on class 1 and 2 for non electricians.

Be good.

madaboutled · Guru

Phil C wrote:
Cheers Steve,
i offer a free testing service with an out of cal megger but won't tag the appliance. It's only a service for GNs who have no worries with no tags.
We recently visited a CP in Vic where they insisted the main lead was tagged. When I told them I will do that they again insisted that its their job to do so at $10 a crack, we moved on. Since then I have tagged all my 240v gear.
Cheers

If you have the acceditation to test & tag your own leads, then they can't stop you from doing it or using the lead. Had a similar run in a couple of years ago at Rockhampton Showgrounds where the "volunteer" at an event wouldn't let my plug in my own tested leads. It wasn't until their electrician pointed out to them that I was accredited to Test and Tag and he wasn't that they allowed me to "Plug In".

Seen some leads GN's have that make me cringe, it's strange how some people think when you're just trying by alert them to a potential problem when they reply with things like "it's ok it hasn't killed me yet", I don't push it and just reply with "well, not yet anyway".

Goldfinger · Senior Member

Back to my original question which I thought was straight forward ......how does one connect the generator to their air conditioner if they don't put the generator through the 240V caravan inlet when free camping?...trying to read the relative responses are you stating a generator should never be connected in any way unless the caravan has a RVD fitted?

My Jayco Heritage has a RCD fitted which going by the responses gives me no protection in the event of a malfunction with the air conditioner..when I have connected my generator to the 240V inlet...is that correct?

Do I need to get a RVD fitted< professionally of course> additionally, or instead of the RCD thereby eliminating it?.....

Would this then give the protection we need if connecting the generator direct to 240V inlet....

I am trying not to confuse the issue that I have on board battery,3x solar panels on roof and folding 120W solar panel in addition and one installed inverter and two freestanding 1000W inverters..none of which I appreciate will help me run the standard roof air conditioner....

Up to date I have been running my air conditioner from my 2Kva Honda through the 240V inlet and it just handles the load....it sounds like through my lack of knowledge this is an unsafe practice...even though I may not be an orphan born out of ignorance, rather than any intent to take a short cut....

Thanks in advance for a straight forward response...as an electrician I'm a reasonable fisherman and do leave it all to the qualified however first I must determine what the situation requires....Hoo Roo

KFT · Guru

Goldfinger wrote:
Back to my original question which I thought was straight forward ......how does one connect the generator to their air conditioner if they don't put the generator through the 240V caravan inlet when free camping?...trying to read the relative responses are you stating a generator should never be connected in any way unless the caravan has a RVD fitted? for maximum protection correct

My Jayco Heritage has a RCD fitted which going by the responses gives me no protection in the event of a malfunction with the air conditioner..when I have connected my generator to the 240V inlet...is that correct? correct

Do I need to get a RVD fitted< professionally of course> additionally, or instead of the RCD thereby eliminating it?..... the RVD incorporates an RCD and they work in conjunction with one another

Would this then give the protection we need if connecting the generator direct to 240V inlet.... Yes it will

I am trying not to confuse the issue that I have on board battery,3x solar panels on roof and folding 120W solar panel in addition and one installed inverter and two freestanding 1000W inverters..none of which I appreciate will help me run the standard roof air conditioner....

Up to date I have been running my air conditioner from my 2Kva Honda through the 240V inlet and it just handles the load....it sounds like through my lack of knowledge this is an unsafe practice...even though I may not be an orphan born out of ignorance, rather than any intent to take a short cut....

Thanks in advance for a straight forward response...as an electrician I'm a reasonable fisherman and do leave it all to the qualified however first I must determine what the situation requires....Hoo Roo

Hope that answers your questions Goldfinger

hako · Guru

Phil C wrote:
I'm surprised this has not been said before

Class 1 earthed. No square within square.
Class 2 there will be two squares (square within square) on the label or compliance plate of the appliance

That solves the debate on class 1 and 2 for non electricians.

Be good.

G'Day Phil - must be other classes as I've got plenty of items that have no earth pin and no square inside a square - e.g. charger for Canon camera and our Bamix - both have 2 pins and no square within a square.

Is there any wonder why us non-electricians are confused!

Regards

Phil C · Guru

hako wrote:
Phil C wrote:
I'm surprised this has not been said before

Class 1 earthed. No square within square.
Class 2 there will be two squares (square within square) on the label or compliance plate of the appliance

That solves the debate on class 1 and 2 for non electricians.

Be good.
G'Day Phil - must be other classes as I've got plenty of items that have no earth pin and no square inside a square - e.g. charger for Canon camera and our Bamix - both have 2 pins and no square within a square.
Is there any wonder why us non-electricians are confused!
Regards

Now that's a pain, I agree there is no standard for that from overseas. I just looked at all my chargers etc and a few of them share that lack of signage. Probably not good to assume anything with electrical but if it's got 2 pins and a plastic case probably reasonable to guess its class 2 double insulated.

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi
Hence my view that if it has a 3pin plug, class it as a CLASS 1
It may have an all plastic case but the "earth' pin may be connected to an internal protective shield between low voltage & extra low voltage components.

Remember the women who was electocuted recently in NSW using an adapter,that prompted a massive recall of many such devices
Killed because the seperation between low voltaged & extra low voltage failed!
Metallic shielding is a good way , but the shield must be connected to"earth"

PeterQ

Phil C · Guru

This debate could go on forever, I agree in essence with what PeterQ said, in saying that I have seen a lot of double insulated with 3 pins. The final authority should be the label and the square within square. If I'm advocating 2 pins to be double insulated it must follow that with 3 pins it's fair to assume it's class one.

Phil C · Guru

Phil C wrote:
JayDee wrote:
I am a Dummy when it comes to this stuff. Let's see
First up we have roof solar panels to power battery.
WE have all lights, a fan on 12 volt as well as our TV and radio.
Fridge 3 way. Gas heater for hot water.
Diesel Heater plus it is also connected to battery.( Of course)
Just installed a pure sine wave 360 watt inverter connect directly to battery for the charging of Computers, phones, dongles, kindle etc.etc.
When bush camping we use gas,for kettle, Fridge, and all cooking etc.
We also use our Generator when we use of Lemar wash. machine and Air/con. and if necessary to charge the van battery.
Have had no problems to date.
I am assuming that we are doing everything right.
Is that correct????????

So what is our A class 1 appliance.
Is it an

electric Jug/ Toaster / Sandwich maker/.large hair dryer etc etc?????
We never use these 240 when camping.

As I said every thing seems to work ok, as per the above.
Houston.... Do I have a problem.
Jay&Dee

Sorry folks if this is repeated but having trouble with posting a reply.

Jay and Dee, sounds like all is OK as long as you have a fuse in the battery line to the inverter.

Cheers

-- Edited by Phil C on Thursday 2nd of April 2015 05:13:12 PM

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi Jaydee

If you run the generator into the van 240V power inlet socket when using the washing m/c, Aircon

You will have 3 class 1's connected & you will have no protection against shocks to earth if certain faults occur

Having had no problem does not mean such cannot occur @ anytime

THe safety recommendation is "DO NOT CONNECT more than ONE Class 1

You can have that protection by getting the existing RCD replaced witha RVD/ RCD combo

PeterQ

VK3TQ · Newbie

Hi Guys I am still confused, what is an RVD. The old caravan I sold had nothing,

I don't think it even had a fuse box It was a 75 Crusader

I am soon buying a 2008-2011 caravan, so I want to know what to look for

Come someone who is an electrician, please explain why NOT to put the caravan and the generator at the same earth potential via rods

I understand why an inverter may be hazardous but....please explain

Rgs
Pete

Phil C · Guru

G'day VK3TQ welcome to our wonderful forum.

To the best of my knowledge, the modern generators are 12 volts DC, and that is sent to an onboard inverter to produce 240 volts The earthing issue is that it's not going to help the RCD (safety switch) to operate in the event of an electrocution (this will only happen when the generator is running the caravan). The RVD Is a safety switch that uses another principal of operation that lets it work with the generator. I would not even attempt to hook up the caravan normal inverter to the caravan mains supply.

Your new caravan will have at least an RCD or what we call a RCBO which is a circuit breaker and RCD all in one this will switch all the mains services. When I picked up my van two years ago it only had one RCBO and that controlled all the mains operated appliances, power points etc. turned out to be a pain when I had some electrical faults with the air conditioner. I then installed a circuit breaker that isolated the aircon from the rest of the circuits. Please don't try this without having an electrician do it for you.

I hope this has cleared the muddy waters for you.

Cheers

oldtrack123 · Guru

VK3TQ wrote:
Hi Guys I am still confused,
[1]what is an RVD. The old caravan I sold had nothing,

[2]I don't think it even had a fuse box It was a 75 Crusader

[3]I am soon buying a 2008-2011 caravan, so I want to know what to look for

[4]Come someone who is an electrician, please explain why NOT to put the caravan and the generator at the same earth potential via rods

I understand why an inverter may be hazardous but....please explain

Rgs
Pete

Hi Pete

[1]A RVD" Residual Voltage Device "Is used in conjuction with a RCD"Residual Curent Device"To give protection from shocks to earth when using portable generator or inveters plugged into the van etc power inletsocket

As posted above asimple RCD cannot perform that function

[2]Yes, they were very basic & quite unsafe

Even house did not have RCDs in those days& shocks& deaths occurred

But NOW they are mandatory in ALL new homes ,transportable structures etc & have been for quite a few years

!Houses for rent or sale are required [in many states ]to have RCDs fitted irrespective of age

3]2008 is around the time that RCDs became compulsory so it may or may not have one fitted

BUT if it has not, I would strongly suggest get one fitted & if you ever expect to use a generator or inverter plugged into the van inlet socket, that you get the RVD /RCD combo fitted

That WILL give you ptotection from Shocks to "earth" including frame & metal components IN THE VAN/

[4] The multiple Earth stakes is a bit technical,but,

put simply earthing the generator &/ OR the van by means of EARTH Stakes OR any other means of making a direct electrical connection to the general mass of MOTHER earth [b y means of water pipes, steel building frame, etc can actually introduce problems with the earthing system

Those problem include:

THE possabilty of high loop ucrrents in the extension leads which can burn out the earthing conductor in the lead/s

Encreased risk of high step voltages

But for MR Average, I would suggest he just follows the advise given by those concerned about electrical safety .who know the problems

Are aware of such problems occurring

That advice is:

"An earth stake is neither required or recommended"

That put simply means, do not deliberately connect you van ,portable generator, inverter to MOTHER earth by any means

While not relavent to this forum a bit of advice

Do not interfere with, or add to, or make changes to ANY earthing system

They are getting more and more complex as problems show up

They are classed as ELECTRICAL work.