Lithium Ion Batteries - Maybe not so far away

D and D · Guru

Lithium Ion Batteries - Maybe not so far away

oldtrack123 · Guru

D and D wrote:
I can't claim to understand a lot about different battery types but from what I have heard Lithium Ion batteries are probably the way of the future and that future may not be that far away for those who want to or need to rely on stored energy .... http://offgridquest.com/news/tesla-motors-announces-a-new-home-batter

Dave

Hi Dave

Lithium Ion batteries are not the CURRNT best for RV use

LiFe Po4 are a better choice

PeterQ

JackoFJR · Senior Member

I talked to a bloke selling Lithium batteries at the Caravan & Camping Show last weekend sounded like a really good thing if you bought the right batt but $1700 for a battery .

Brenda and Alan · Guru

Bought and installed a 200 Ah LiFePo4 battery into our van last weekend. Cost was $1390, (cf AGM about $700 for decent quality) The new battery gives 160 Ah of usable output so for us that means 4 days use with no sun for solar at all. Life expectancy 10 -20 years. Compared to lead acid good value. The added bonus was replacing a 39Kgm 120Ah AGM with a 25Kgm 200Ah LiFePo4.

Alan

JackoFJR · Senior Member

They do sound like a good thing . I was told by the bloke at the show it's essential to have a Battery management System built into the battery , it can then be charged with a normal battery charger or set up as a normal dual battery system ,

John Heddles · Member

I remain a little confused that no-one appears concerned about the fire risk (and fire extinguishing problems) associated with Li ion batteries ? A simple google search presents a lot of information.

For the aviation industry, they are a major headache and have resulted in the destruction of a number of transport aeroplanes.

When they work well, they're real fine ..

-- Edited by John Heddles on Saturday 21st of February 2015 09:48:26 AM

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

There are at least 5 different types and chemistries for "Lithium" batteries.
Don't get them confused with each other.
They each have different advantages and risks.
LiFePO4 are the safest (and heaviest) of them and bear little resemblance to the others.
They are NOT the ones that caused the grief for Boeing and they are NOT the ones that TESLA will make, but I expect that both of those are also "safe" with appropriate treatment.
Lead acid is not always 100% "safe" either.

Cheers,
Peter

oldtrack123 · Guru

John Heddles wrote:
I remain a little confused that no-one appears concerned about the fire risk (and fire extinguishing problems) associated with Li ion batteries ? A simple google search presents a lot of information.
For the aviation industry, they are a major headache and have resulted in the destruction of a number of transport aeroplanes.
When they work well, they're real fine ..

-- Edite d by John Heddles on Saturday 21st of February 2015 09:48:26 AM

Hi John
Those Li ions do have a history of fires , even with mobile phones & the like
But are not the type recommended for RV use those are Li Fe Po4 lithium batteries
Different chemistry , much heavier, looong life [ if treated correctly ]but erepairably damaged if certain charge/ discharge critea is not met.

Cloak · Guru

I'm waiting for a fuel cell that runs off stupid. There's an inexhaustible supply of that out there.

jade46 · Member

The ones that do catch fire if treated badly are LIPO Lithium Polymer. They are used in the radio control model field Very light for power output IE model planes but very susceptible to fire if damaged or charged to fast. The paste in the cells ie plastic bags will spontaneously ignite if it comes in contact with the atmosphere .They will not transport them on aircraft all are marked "road freight only"

Search "lipo rc planes" on Youtube Lots of fires

SnowT · Guru

Hey Dave be very careful of what you say...

As some of the others have said, the Differences between the different types of Lithium Batteries are staggering..

Li Ion or Lithium Polymer batteries.. the one used in RC models are the one's that explode/burst into flames..

LiFePO4y are the ones being touted for RV market as they are a Good safe Battery... Heavier than Li Ion.. but far safer... 1/2 -1/3 the weight of Lead acid for the power to weight ratio....
Other form of Lithium Battery operate better than LiFePO4y batteries But their cost are Much higher..

Initial cost is more expensive, but over the life of the battery it is FAR cheaper....

There is NO Commercially available charging system out there at the moment that does not support you beyond 12month's.. as they know that the batteries do funny thing's if not charged correctly.. [ I can say this as the guys I'm involved with have been tracking developments of many different systems.. ]

Anyone[commercially] that try's to tell you that they know how to do it.. is missing over 10-20yrs of experimentation.. one partially system has been in constant usage for over 4year's..
My own system for about 6mths and it's getting an upgrade to improve it operation... Plus I'm adding the Aircon..

Juergen

oldtrack123 · Guru

SnowT wrote:.. [ I can say this as the guys I'm involved with have been tracking developments of many different systems.. ]

Anyone[commercially] that try's to tell you that they know how to do it.. is missing over 10-20yrs of experimentation.. one partially system has been in constant usage for over 4year's..
My own system for about 6mths and it's getting an upgrade to improve it operation... Plus I'm adding the Aircon..

Juergen

HI Snow

10to 20years experimentation???

I wonder who that would be????

Well THAT certainly is not the one who posts on CV forum or the old CMCA forum

Many of us KNOW when HE got his first set of batterries.[ Just before the old CMCA forum closed] around 6years ago biggrin

SnowT · Guru

I'm talking of collectively....

individually yes about 5-6yrs worth of data..
As a Group of over 50Plus systems then yes there is over 20yrs of experimentation..

No one individual could afford to to have so many systems running concurrently, unless they had extremely deep pocket's..

So does that quantify my comment....

juergen

NASA when thru Millions of unit's[Battery cells] to get enough Batteries to put in the Mar Rover...

Dav4Cris · Senior Member

We have been running Life 04 system for 6 months, so far the only problem has been me, playing with things shorting out relays and not having enough cooling around our 3000/6000watt inverter. We have it all setup so we just turn a rotary switch between shore power and inverter, when we select inverter, we have to then turn on the inverter and turn the ho****er system off and over to gas. We run 200ah and have never run out of power yet. We can run a A/C for a short while, will need to add a extra 200ah to be able to run it properly, 100ah would do but the extra 200ah will be better. If the 3 way fridge and the A/C ever give up we will fit a compressor fridge and a inverted A/C as the system will power these no problem (thats with 400ah and 850 watts of solar). With 400ah and the 850 watts of solar we wont need to turn the ho****er over to gas either, unless we have a week or two of rain.

Dav4Cris · Senior Member

There is a interesting thread happening on the Caravanners Forum at the moment re Lithium Batteries, actually there is a couple for those who are interested.

Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.