This could be interesting for those who like a technical problem.
We have a 2013 Jayco 21.65 with independent suspension. Since we got it I've amused myself at rest stops by checking the temperatures of the brakes. The rear brakes are always about 100 (deg.C) but the fronts are nowhere near that. One has never been above 35, the other never more than 50.
I assumed that there was a basic problem that the dealer would rectify, but no, the dealer says there's no problem. They've adjusted the brakes twice, but the temperatures never change. So am I wrong?
I expected that if there's a brake on each wheel, then they should all do some of the stopping. Which means, all four brakes would show some significant temperature increase. Doesn't happen.
Tonight when I collected the van the dealer assured me everything was as it should be. By the time I got home I'd tested several times and the results are same as always. So maybe I'm being petty. But a 65 degree variation in drum temperatures seems a bit excessive to me. What do you think? Has anyone ever measured drum temperatures before? What sort of variation would you accept? I suppose I could open them up and have a look, although I'd rather leave it to the brake service.
No sermons please, but I'd be pleased to hear of any similar experiences.
I suggest you check to see if they are actually working on that axle, maybe there not connected. There will be a temp reading from the wheel hub & bearings them selves.
May have to jack it up & spin the wheels while some one applies the brakes as a starter. Should also be able to hear a humming from each wheel.
JC.
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Be your self; there's no body better qualified ! "I came into this world with nothing , I still have most of it"
I hesitate to say anything - coz that bloke Murphy is usually listening far too often.
I assume you are using a 'sensor/temperature reader' to obtain the temps you mention. I have never done that
But ........ every time I stop along the highway, the first thing I always do is feel the wheels and hubs with my hands and there has never been a time when they feel even warm ... and all four feel the same. I know the brakes work properly because I an feel the van pulling slightly on the tug - and when I use the brake controller slide going down hills sometimes it works beautifully.
I don't know what that means but, like you, I would assume all four wheels should all be within cooee of the same temp.
Hope ya solve the problem .. or others on here help to solve it. I'll watch on here with interest.
cheers - John
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2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto - 2008 23ft Golden Eagle Hunter Some people feel the rain - the others just get wet - Bob Dylan
Yep, that's been done. There's an electrical connection and the drum stops rotating. Although the significance if that to the dealer's mechanic seems a bit overrated in my opinion. Having done that test they were satisfied that everything was OK. To my mind the magnet itself would probably stop the drum being turned by hand, even if the shoes were nowhere near contacting. I wonder if the backing plates are on the wrong side. It is independent suspension after all and they'd certainly be inefficient if they were operating in reverse.
-- Edited by KevinC on Tuesday 10th of June 2014 09:00:06 PM
I wonder if the backing plates are on the wrong side. It is independent suspension after all and they'd certainly be inefficient if they were operating in reverse.
Kevin
there is an easy way to see if brakes are working,,, drive on dirt at say 15kph and hit the brakes,,, should lock up. did this 2 days ago with sister inlaws horse float.
If you think front axle is NOT braking, due to reversed backing plates,,, do this in reverse.
Also I would think front brakes would normally be cooled better than rear,, ie better air flow to front drum and disturbed airflow to rear drum. tri axle semis have this problem as well.
I've never checked brake drum temps but I regularly touch hubs en route looking for anything abnormal.
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Why is it so? Professor Julius Sumner Miller, a profound influence on my life, who explained science to us on TV in the 60's.
A couple of other things that can cause this are; If there are damaged/wrong fittment of the hub seals on the other axle letting a small amount of grease/or resadue onto the brake linnings this will cause them to come on harder & do most of the work.
Excess brake dust;( worn linning material ) can do the same thing; absorbes moisture/grease vapour & makes the brake come on harder/grab when cold.
Really sounds like wheels off for a full inspection. Maybe some clown has wound the adjusters off for that axle ; some dont know left from right or up from down.
If you do the inspection , find the problem & rectify then we are not guessing; that way you will be safe & know what you have got happenning.
JC.
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Be your self; there's no body better qualified ! "I came into this world with nothing , I still have most of it"
Hopefully the dealer has checked all brakes and bearings professionally which should include testing of amperage draw at all wheels.
There is also a problem that can occur where some magnets create a larger magnetic force on individual and/or same axle brakes creating larger braking forces.
With my tandem axle van I moved a LHR magnet to the RHF to rectify a severe braking problem on both LHS brakes. After repositioning these two magnets both of the front axle brakes are very close in braking performance and the van does not feel like it is trying to twist the towing combination when pulling up.
The front axle now acts as a leading brake with slightly more braking power compared to the rear axle. The front axle does run marginally warmer when braking but only by 20 to 30 degrees under heavy application.
Cheers Kev.
The story so far. After a short run the brake drum temperatures are :-
Front R 30
Front L 50
Rear R 100
Rear L 100 These temperatures aren't always exactly the same, but the numbers are a fair representation.
This has been happening since the van was new ... it's only about 5000 klms old now. Given that everything needs time to settle in, I haven't stressed about it before. But now that the van has had its first service I'm not satisfied.
The brake drums are on the correct sides, (just crawled under it with a torch to make sure), and the dealer probably has adjusted each brake correctly. I can't see how two sets of bearings could be flogged by now, and the 100 degrees is probably fair considering there's only two brakes stopping a big van.
So now I'm interested in KevKim37's suggestion that the problem may be electrical, or at least magnetic. We have the AL-KO stability control fitted, but it's my understanding that it provides the same signal to all brakes at once so it's unlikely to be at fault. I'll have to get back to the dealer to find out if they've done any electrical testing at all.
At this stage I'm not all that keen to start pulling the thing apart myself. Warranty and servicing should count for something.
While I don't have the same model caravan as you, I do have a Jayco discovery ( 17.55.3 )poptop and it also has a tandum wheel set up ( 4 wheels under the caravan ). This caravan is only 18 months old , any way I've just had a look under the caravan and had a look at the wireing that runs to the electric brakes, and while there is wireing going to the front axel for the brakes. There is NO wiring what so ever going to to rear axel.
So what I'm trying to say that with a 4 wheel tandum wheel set up there is no brakes at all for the rear brakes and this would account for the temp differance in the wheel hubs that you are talking about.
Look at it another way, the major of the braking in .....say a car or even a trailer/caravan is done by the front brakes.
Why not have a talk with the service department of Jayco , I have found them very helpfull when i needed to run the wiring from my solar panels though the roof so as not to catch the 12 Volt wires for the roof lights.
-- Edited by valiant81 on Wednesday 11th of June 2014 08:35:11 AM
The story so far. After a short run the brake drum temperatures are :- Front R 30 Front L 50 Rear R 100 Rear L 100 These temperatures aren't always exactly the same, but the numbers are a fair representation.
This has been happening since the van was new ... it's only about 5000 klms old now. Given that everything needs time to settle in, I haven't stressed about it before. But now that the van has had its first service I'm not satisfied.
The brake drums are on the correct sides, (just crawled under it with a torch to make sure), and the dealer probably has adjusted each brake correctly. I can't see how two sets of bearings could be flogged by now, and the 100 degrees is probably fair considering there's only two brakes stopping a big van. So now I'm interested in KevKim37's suggestion that the problem may be electrical, or at least magnetic. We have the AL-KO stability control fitted, but it's my understanding that it provides the same signal to all brakes at once so it's unlikely to be at fault. I'll have to get back to the dealer to find out if they've done any electrical testing at all. At this stage I'm not all that keen to start pulling the thing apart myself. Warranty and servicing should count for something.
These are NOT high temperatures for brake drums,,, Give the brakes a good workout and reassess would be my advice.
Also did you drive on dirt and apply brakes as I suggested previously - then you will see if all 4 wheel brakes are applied AND applied evenly.
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Why is it so? Professor Julius Sumner Miller, a profound influence on my life, who explained science to us on TV in the 60's.
These are NOT high temperatures for brake drums, .....
No, but they are low temperatures. If all the brakes are working equally, the temperatures will be about the same. The variations here are huge.
The front brakes probably work a little, maybe even enough to lock up on dirt. But I'm not happy to trust them in an emergency. I'd like to think I have four brakes working well. Who would settle for two?
Maybe when you brake the front of the tow motor goes down and the front of the van goes up and the front wheels of the van come off the ground...
maybe your weight distribution system is set incorrectly... Try giving it a run so most of the weight is on the front wheels of the van...
It's a big van Bob, and the independent suspension stays in contact with the road. If the front wheels were lifting they'd lock up. And I never drive that hard anyway. I can drag this van at a very low speed with the brakes applied and heat the brakes up, but it's only two that get hot. The other two apply, but do it so gently they have little effect.
No, it has to be a system problem.
I've contacted AL-KO to see if they have any ideas.
These are NOT high temperatures for brake drums, .....
No, but they are low temperatures. If all the brakes are working equally, the temperatures will be about the same. The variations here are huge.
The front brakes probably work a little, maybe even enough to lock up on dirt. But I'm not happy to trust them in an emergency. I'd like to think I have four brakes working well. Who would settle for two?
Kevin, the temp comment was in response to Peter's post.
Maybe I'm not explaining this too well,,, but if you want to solve the problem follow the KISS principle (no offence meant here), and you have done this in part by checking the backing plates are on correct.
Now you are looking for a "system" fault (and it may be) without knowing the percentage that your brakes are being applied.
I suggest that you:
a) drive on dirt and lock up brakes - see if they all come on / off identical distances
b) if they all come on do the same on bitumen,, hit them hard and see how you stop.
Then get the brakes hot, not semi warm and see if the braking performance in a and b above improves?????
If the front axle brakes have never been hot the brake shoes may have never been bedded in at all. When new our van had to be driven about 400m with brakes on eavily before they had any effect, same when new linings fitted a couple of years ago. Remember brake linings now don't have any asbestos in them.
Brakes are made work and that's why brake fluid is rated at 260deg C plus to account for the heat,,, so drums could be much hotter.
You could also ask the guy who adjusted your brakes what road test he did to confirm they were all working on each wheel?????? Also did he check voltage to each wheel if that is a concern at this stage.
I hope I've put things into some sort of order to assist you in finding a solution.
It will be hard for AL-KO to advise you if you don't know if the brakes are working or not?
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Why is it so? Professor Julius Sumner Miller, a profound influence on my life, who explained science to us on TV in the 60's.
Kevin, I would check and see if all your magnets have the same rating. Maybe someone at Jayco fitted different magnets to the front or rear. All four should have the same resistance value.
I would also ask the so called dealer to explain why the difference and does he think this to be 'normal.
All four should maybe not the exact same temperature but a lot closer than what you've got. I know ours is.
Larry
My thanks to all those who've responded, and also to those who've thought about it even if you didn't come up with any new ideas. The van goes back to the dealer on Monday, and I've opened communication between the dealer and AL-KO. Hopefully between them they'll firstly, make the braking more evenly balanced and secondly, be prepared to assure me that the brakes are performing to specification, because somewhere down the track I'd hate to be involved in an incident and have someone hang it on me for having inefficient brakes.
Gday - I'm new to the forum, but as I read thru this post, I recall seeing an issue with Alko electric brakes on a Jayco. The magnet is supposed to have a clip in it to the Arm it sits on, to stop it riding on the drum. Because there was no clip, then depending on the angle of the arm, the magnet could drag on the face of the drum all the time (but not hard on as when braking).
Did you try jacking up each wheel and try spining it with the Breakaway switch out?
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Glen
A diesel Nissan Pathfinder towing a Coromal Element 542.
G'day Treecrest, Welcome to the forum.
There's a fine line between finding a solution and getting the van fixed under warranty. I've done a few little tests, nothing invasive, but just enough to be able to match the experts who work for the various organizations. The man from AL-KO agrees with me that something isn't right. The dealer is hedging now that I've insisted that I want a statement from him that the brakes are working within specification. Warranty is a great insurance policy but it does tie ones hands somewhat. So I've had to resist the temptation to rip the thing apart and find the problem. I have to be patient. Some of our members have suggested various test that would indicate where the problem might lie. Regrettably I can't delve too far in case I overstep the mark and give the other bodies cause to reject any further warranty claims. In a short time this problem has to be solved by the dealer. I can guarantee that it will be! It make take some concerted pushing on my part but it will happen! In the meantime I have to think about your advice and all the other advice I've received, and wait for the system to take its course.
Again, welcome and thanks for offering your help.
Back again. Well the dealer seems to have fixed the problem but not identified it. True there was one magnet that differed from the rest. Resistance measured 4.2 ohms compared to the others at 3.6. Some of the connections looked average so they were soldered. Apart from that, nothing seemed amiss or was corrected. So I have the van back and the brake temperatures today were all between 30 and 40 degrees. Last time the rears alone were working with temps about 100 degrees. I'd like to be able to provide a bit more information even if just for the sake of solving the mystery, but I can't.
If I was trying to fix a problem like this in the future I'd start by making sure all the magnets were drawing the same amps and were showing the same resistance.
Wish I knew more, but I don't so I'll just start using the van like I wanted to in the first place.
Another issue which I have recently seen, was having similar symptoms to what you were having. When the brake drum was removed, we saw that the wire from the magnet had been attached to the brake shoe spring in such a way that it was rubbing on the drum and had shorted out.
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Glen
A diesel Nissan Pathfinder towing a Coromal Element 542.
Back again. Well the dealer seems to have fixed the problem but not identified it. True there was one magnet that differed from the rest. Resistance measured 4.2 ohms compared to the others at 3.6. Some of the connections looked average so they were soldered. Apart from that, nothing seemed amiss or was corrected. So I have the van back and the brake temperatures today were all between 30 and 40 degrees. Last time the rears alone were working with temps about 100 degrees. I'd like to be able to provide a bit more information even if just for the sake of solving the mystery, but I can't. If I was trying to fix a problem like this in the future I'd start by making sure all the magnets were drawing the same amps and were showing the same resistance. Wish I knew more, but I don't so I'll just start using the van like I wanted to in the first place.
Sounds like they found a problem,, they are just not sharing it with you,, ie they are not admitting any liability,, standard practice with many in the industry.
Anyway good that brakes are even temps so assume even braking force applied.
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Why is it so? Professor Julius Sumner Miller, a profound influence on my life, who explained science to us on TV in the 60's.
I know the brakes work properly because I an feel the van pulling slightly on the tug - and when I use the brake controller slide going down hills sometimes it works beautifully.
