Generator Recall

2foot6 · Senior Member

Generator Recall

oldtrack123 · Guru

HI
Yes ,potentially very dangerous generators !!!
SUCH generators SHALL have a permanent RCD fittted'
Obviously NOT submitted for APPPROVAL, yet being sold!!!

The solutions are simple

Either remove the Line to Frame/ earth link
OR fit with an RCD OR RVD

I suspect they will just remove the line to frame link

AND THEN should submitt it for approval!!!

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 8th of February 2014 04:44:56 PM

powerstream · Veteran Member

Can anyone tell me where the Detroit and Sabre come from I would like to investigate one to see what they have done.
Ian

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

They look like yankee gennies..... [good ole Mr Google]

http://www.perkinspower.com/parts/sabre.aspx

http://www.depco.com/detroit-diesel-generator-sets/

Cheers - John

dorian · Guru

Total Tools -- Saber Generator
Saber 7.5kVA / 7500W Generator

www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1055778

Total Tools -- Detroit Generator(s)
A.) 7.5KVA 15HP Recoil Start Generator

B.) 3.1KVA 2500W 6.5HP Recoil Start Generator

www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1055776

-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 9th of February 2014 08:13:26 AM

powerstream · Veteran Member

John
I doubt very much that Detroit and Perkins would be involved and they are called Saber where Perkins is Sabre but Detroit is odd .
Dorian
They do not come up on the Total Tools website possibly due to being recalled but thank you for the link.
Ian

Phil C · Guru

Yipes.... what next.. Thanks goodness for my Honda.

oldtrack123 · Guru

powerstream wrote:
Can anyone tell me where the Detroit and Sabre come from I would like to investigate one to see what they have done.
Ian

HI Ian

link to Detroit Power generators IT is actually an"ALL Tools site

http://www.detroittools.com.au/index.php/features/78

I suspect they have simply made a neutral connection to both the frame & the earth pins

So no longer an isolated type

But NOT M.E.N smile

It could be they are intended for fixed wiring as EMERGENCY generators but even so SHOULD not have an EN unless a RCD is fitted EDit .See they have outlet sockets & they SAY the two larger models have A RCB????

IF it is an inverter generator it may have something to do with the inverter circuit.

Probably another chinese clone

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 8th of February 2014 11:24:19 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 8th of February 2014 11:24:59 PM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

One flash and your ASH !!

dorian · Guru

The perkinspower.com web site links to their manufacturer's web site (perkins-sabre.com), but this results in a "HTTP Error 404".

However, here is their old web site at the WayBack Machine:

web.archive.org/web/20130303011229/http://www.perkins-sabre.com/Auxiliary.cfm

powerstream · Veteran Member

Old track-Peter
You made mention of the RVD and I thought I should pass this information on to all and sundry but this will not fix the existing problem with the stated generators as the incorrect earthing connections with the RVD would create a double MEN and still need removal although it would be safe as the unit would never supply power tripping out every time on startup.

RVD

Those that have been interested in the RVD and their ultimate safety while travelling and using generators I have asked Safelec Technology to do a MEMBERS SPECIAL of free installation in the Newcastle Area of NSW for locals and anyone passing through for the first 100 members to place an order for the RVD and they have agreed.
A licenced electrician will remove the old RCD and replace it with an RVD which will allow generators and or inverters to be plugged into the inlet socket to the RV giving safety of use in both mains and isolated supply of electricity.
This can be done on the side of the road at a common location to suit convenience of access arranged by negotiation.
All enquiries can be made to info@safelec.com.au or sales@safelec.com.au

Admin if this Post is in breach of the Forums guidelines please delete it of relocate it.
Ian

-- Edited by powerstream on Sunday 9th of February 2014 07:42:46 AM

Kooroorinya Kelpie · Senior Member

Hi all. A little OT but concerns the retailer mentioned in the OP. 2 months back I decided to purchase a 12T hydraulic jack to make life a bit easier if I need to change a wheel on our MH. Had a look in said shop and they had a squat model at right $, looked OK, got home, unpacked it and no flaming handle. Back to the shop with jack and after 5-6 minutes bloke comes back with a handle and slides it into the original jack box so it's thanks and see you later except that on going to try the jack out the flaming handle would not fit. So 10km back to shop with my pyrometer getting close too red zone, bail the salesman and ask him " why didn't you just get me a handle out of one of the other same type jack boxes". His reply was "none of them have handles in the boxes". I sadly shook my head and asked for, and got, a refund. I reckon these outlets can sell goods cheaply because there is zilch quality control on the goods. Once bitten twice shy they say. Cheers.

dorian · Guru

I confess that I don't see the point of an RVD ("Residual Voltage Device") in a generator/inverter with a MEN strap.

This is all I could find on the Safelec web site:
www.safelec.com.au/uploads/2/2/9/9/22999486/8756369_orig.png

Am I right in assuming that the RVD section senses the voltage difference between the earth (aka "frame") of the device and the neutral conductor? If so, and if the earth is connected to neutral via a MEN strap, then the E-N potential difference will always be 0V. So one would have to ask, what is the point of the RVD? Is its sole function to ensure that the MEN strap doesn't come adrift?

BTW, it's "toroidal", not "toroinal", and "solenoid", not "solonoid", unless this device incorporates some new fangled twists to existing technology.

powerstream · Veteran Member

Dorian
The earth neutral bonding works on the back end of the inverter or generator and can suffer from high impedance where an RCD will not work.
High impedance can be caused by loose joints corroded joints and dirty metallic particle joints.
An RVD works on the output of the generator or inverter and measures the voltage differential on both active and neutral and if that differential exceeds 43V then the RVD will trip if its on its own or if coupled with an RCBO this will also trip.
An RVD can trip a supply with no arcing or barking and no damage to the person or equipment being used.
If you plug a generator into an RV inlet which a lot of people do the RCD will not work but if you install a combined RCBO/RVD as a replacement to the RCD then you have protection of both mains power and generator power mitigating the risk.

Your notation on toroinal and solenoid will be passed on to Safelec and thank you for that and I hope they appreciate it even though a University Graduate I believe does that work I think spell checking to-day would be a full time job so I am not taking it on.
It is odd putting in toroidal in this page comes up with a red line under it.
Ian

-- Edited by powerstream on Sunday 9th of February 2014 10:28:24 AM

-- Edited by powerstream on Sunday 9th of February 2014 11:04:27 AM

dorian · Guru

The voltage differential between active and frame will always be 240VAC, if the MEN strap is in place, yet you seem to be saying that only 43VAC is required to trip the RVD. I confess I don't understand.

As for plugging a generator into an RV inlet, we had a very long thread about this very issue and it was conclusively demonstrated that an RCD and MEN strap, when fitted internally to the generator, as per the applicable standard, does indeed provide the necessary protection.

brian · Guru

dorian wrote:
I confess that I don't see the point of an RVD ("Residual Voltage Device") in a generator/inverter with a MEN strap.

This is all I could find on the Safelec web site:
www.safelec.com.au/uploads/2/2/9/9/22999486/8756369_orig.png

Am I right in assuming that the RVD section senses the voltage difference between the earth (aka "frame") of the device and the neutral conductor? If so, and if the earth is connected to neutral via a MEN strap, then the E-N potential difference will always be 0V. So one would have to ask, what is the point of the RVD? Is its sole function to ensure that the MEN strap doesn't come adrift?

BTW, it's "toroidal", not "toroinal", and "solenoid", not "solonoid", unless this device incorporates some new fangled twists to existing technology.

If you have another look at the circuit diagram you will notice that the toroid is located between the earth - neutral bond (which will be on the live side of the RCD/RVD) and the load neutral.

The potential difference is indeed 0v between the E-N on the live side of the toroid but not on the load side due to the voltage drop across the toroid's coil.

The RVD doesn't particularly care whether there is an E-N bond or not, and doesn't need one in order to function.

One of its greatest advantages is that it will detect a lost supply neutral which, coupled with a poor earth, is a very dangerous situation as it, via the E-N bond, makes all downstream grounded appliance frames live with respect to earth with potential fatal shock hazard. An RCD cannot detect this loss of supply neutral.

powerstream · Veteran Member

Thank you Brian for your input and to add the caravan and RV scenario becomes more dangerous because of confinement and close proximity of appliances where a person can in a fault situation become the earth path between those appliances.
Ian

dorian · Guru

Brian, the "RVD" in the block diagram is connected to the live side, not the load side. It has no way of seeing the voltage drop across the toroid's windings. In any case, have you any idea how much current the windings would have to carry before the emf exceeded 1V, let alone 43V?

BTW, my question/objection regarding the 240V A-E potential still stands.

-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 9th of February 2014 11:24:06 AM

Phil C · Guru

I agree with Dorian, why have a RVD when the only real safety device is the RCD, whens all said and done its the current that fries you, if the RCD picks up a current difference in active and neutral (as little as 15mA) it trips. As far as a MEN link is concerned, its a must have AS3000 is ultra clear on that one.

powerstream · Veteran Member

Please take a look at the safelec website, go to technologies, then videos and see the difference between RCD and RVD.
Also the RVD is approved for use by the Regulator is Laboratory tested and carries an Australian Approval and is currently being installed in all new Queensland Ambulances among other installations.
Next week it will be reviewed by the committee for AS/NZS3003 for potential inclusion in that standard for medical use.
It is also being installed in Mine use in both 110V model and 240V model.
Ian

-- Edited by powerstream on Sunday 9th of February 2014 12:50:09 PM

dorian · Guru

Ian, can you show us what is inside one of these devices?

Is there an applicable patent?

goldcoaster · Senior Member

Love this Technical Talk but you guy's have lost me. Am I in danger when I plug my Honda 2kva gennie directly into my Motorhome inlet which intern goes through my MH RCD. If so what do I do or need, in layman turns please. Thanks

brian · Guru

dorian wrote:
Brian, the "RVD" in the block diagram is connected to the live side, not the load side. It has no way of seeing the voltage drop across the toroid's windings. In any case, have you any idea how much current the windings would have to carry before the emf exceeded 1V, let alone 43V?
BTW, my question/objection regarding the 240V A-E potential still stands.

-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 9th of February 2014 11:24:06 AM

That diagram is of the complete unit, not a separate RCD and RVD. There are considerably more internal connections than you can see in the diagram.

I'm not sure what your concern about the A-E potential. The RCD section of the device alone would handle any A-E fault.

I'm surprised that you guys have a problem with a device that improves electrical safety, has Australian approval, and it is proven technology.

As an aside..You do not use an MEN link with portable equipment. The MEN earthing system is different to just providing an earth - neutral bond, and with non-RCD portable generator installations (which includes most that RVers use,) bonding of one live conductor to the earth pin to create an earthed neutral, or the use of an earth stake, or any other connection to earth is expressly forbidden.

brian · Guru

goldcoaster wrote:
Love this Technical Talk but you guy's have lost me. Am I in danger when I plug my Honda 2kva gennie directly into my Motorhome inlet which intern goes through my MH RCD. If so what do I do or need, in layman turns please. Thanks

Unless your generator has been fitted with an RCD, then there is a risk of electric shock.

The RCD in the van will not disconnect the supply if you receive a shock to earth when connected to a generator that has not been properly setup to make that RCD work.

Be aware that the test button on the van RCD may trip the unit when pressed, but this is only a virtual mechanical test, it does not prove that the unit will respond to a shock hazard to earth.

There have been numerous threads on this, you would do well to read some of them.

powerstream · Veteran Member

Dorian
Yes all the technology is either Patent or patent applied for.
I could show you what is inside but then I would have to electrocute you.
Please talk to wayne at info@safelec.com.au
Ian

powerstream · Veteran Member

www.safelec.com.au/safelec-videos.html
Please watch the videos in the above link it does explain things better than me.

Ian

dorian · Guru

Ian, any competitor would take less than 1 hour to reverse engineer this trivial piece of technology, so any secrecy is just ridiculous. Morever, no end user would consider making his own, so Safelec has nothing to lose.

Brian, my concern about the A-E potential is in relation to Ian's statement that "an RVD works on the output of the generator or inverter and measures the voltage diffrential on both active and neutral and if that differential exceeds 43V then the RVD will trip if its on its own ..."

This statement makes no sense to me, for reasons that should be obvious to you, so I asked for clarification which has not yet been forthcoming.

The reason that I have a problem with this device is because nobody can explain how it works (marketing pap is not good enough). I reiterate that this device is essentially useless in a generator that has a properly installed earth-neutral bond. In fact does anyone really believe that we should bother with an RVD just to ensure against an open earth-neutral bond? The chance of that occurring would be less than being struck by lightning.

As for the block diagram, can you produce a better one, if it exists? In any case what special information do you have that makes you think that the device is any more sophisticated than the block diagram would suggest? In fact, can you show us the patent, Ian? That would be in the public domain, wouldn't it?

brian · Guru

dorian wrote:
Ian, any competitor would take less than 1 hour to reverse engineer this trivial piece of technology, so any secrecy is just ridiculous. Morever, no end user would consider making his own, so Safelec has nothing to lose.

Brian, my concern about the A-E potential is in relation to Ian's statement that "an RVD works on the output of the generator or inverter and measures the voltage diffrential on both active and neutral and if that differential exceeds 43V then the RVD will trip if its on its own ..."

This statement makes no sense to me, for reasons that should be obvious to you, so I asked for clarification which has not yet been forthcoming.

The reason that I have a problem with this device is because nobody can explain how it works (marketing pap is not good enough). I reiterate that this device is essentially useless in a generator that has a properly installed earth-neutral bond. In fact does anyone really believe that we should bother with an RVD just to ensure against an open earth-neutral bond? The chance of that occurring would be less than being struck by lightning.

As for the block diagram, can you produce a better one, if it exists? In any case what special information do you have that makes you think that the device is any more sophisticated than the block diagram would suggest? In fact, can you show us the patent, Ian? That would be in the public domain, wouldn't it?

I don't know where you got this idea that the RVD protects against an open E-N bond.

It doesn't require that bond in the first place, and in fact was developed to specifically do away with it or to replace it with a high impedance earth path.

Not having the bond allows the power source to be separated/fully isolated/floating above earth potential. Having a high impedance bond limits fault currents to manageable levels.

This removes the inherent shock to earth situation of the normal TN system of earthing but it introduces the problem of a lack of first fault detection that a TT/TN - RCD combination provides.

[Australia actually uses the TN-C-S system which is a little different in that the neutral is bonded to earth at more than one point (but only once in any one installation) and is therefore called Multiple Earthed Neutral (MEN)].

The TT/TN/MEN systems achieve this protection by providing a low impedance path for earth fault currents, which will cause either or both the MCB and RCD to trip.

The RVD instead employs a high impedance to earth function to limit fault currents to low values, and it senses the rise in voltage across this impedance via the earth sense wire to initiate fault tripping of the coupled RCD.

I am not privy to the intricacies of the circuitry, but surely you don't expect that the wiring shown is all there is.

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi Dorion
Gee,been away all day & mised the fun\

As Brian & Ian have posted the RVD does not need a neutral/Earth connection

IT can be used with fullY isolated supplies {NO NEUTRAL ] just two lines L1 & L2.
THAT maintains that INITIAL safety of a fully isolated source !!!

IT monitors those lines for a voltage to earth[from either]exceeding 43V
THAT voltage can have a high impedance source, does not need 40mA,for the RVD to determine that the source is no longer an isolated supply[that EN fault can occur ANYWHERE in the system,it does not have to be before the RVD as it does with a RCD

ie the source is NOW an EN[ not necessarily MEN ]source,although the EN conncection may be high impedance

So actuayl when used with a fully isolated source it give TWO lines of protection

The initial fully isolated protection Then the trip if that isolation fails

The RVD can nowALSO trigger a RCD if a LINE [Active] to earth fault occurs

They can also be used with either an EN or MEN system

PeterQ

Why should they give a detailed circuit digram of the internal circuitry on an open forum
I can assure you the units do all that is claimed of them
It is has involved a lot of testing & design modifications to get the 3 finished products,Fully APPROVED.
i

PeterQ

I see that while iI was editing Ian has given details on those other units smile

by oldtrack123 on Sunday 9th of February 2014 06:33:04 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 9th of February 2014 06:36:52 PM

powerstream · Veteran Member

With the raw RVD on its own in an inverter or generator it can operate on its own up to the capacity of the unit and currently it comes it 8A and 16A with a 32A in the wings.

With the RVD-EM, RVD-EI and RVD-EMR three current models operate at 8A and the attachment of the RCD varies to suit the amperage application.

If it is such a trivial peace of technology then you being a smart man would not be asking the questions you are asking you would know but it is nothing unusual to me as I find a lot of smart people cannot grasp isolated power and do not believe in anything but the old earthing technology.

Even one head from a Utility Company adopted a negative view to the technology where he at a conference when introduce to the new technology representative poked him in the chest and said I know you your are the person trying to make my job redundant as he had been the earthing guru for 50 odd years.

The voltage differential is set to 43V to work below the legal touch voltage threshold of 50V but we can operate down to 8Ma at 8Ms.
The technology is an isolated power supply safety device which will find its way into residential applications via an isolation transformer where it can achieve safety.
Think in a new subdivision with changing materials where is your earth path with plastic baths, plastic water pipes etc so your MEN link is back at the transformer or sub-station so if there is a failure what protection has all that subdivision got OOPs.
Ian