powerstream wrote:

---

Brian you have an excellent system and T1 has every right to hold the knowledge he has gained and even though he states he comes from Gods Country I doubt that God lives there under the name of Terry.
The LiFePo4 batteries still have some way to go to be a general purpose battery for all to use with confidence and at this stage people do not want to be married to there power system when they should be enjoying their travelling and leisure years.
I have been involved with the lithium arena for some time now also and I believe they have great advantages over lead acid but when a bad report comes to me that needs investigating then I wonder how much of the vibe on them is marketing hype as currently I have a situation where a truck was fitted with LiFePo4 batteries replacing cranking batteries to give increase power to drive a cabin air conditioning and the system was supplied by someone who claims to be the best and has the best and two runs of the truck on the Coast went fine and then a run inland and the batteries caught fire. I know Terry states raw alternator charging is no good with those batteries and I agree but as long as there are people out there supplying product that fails there will be a cloud over how good these batteries really are.
I have a video of a LiFePo4 being dropped off a multi story building and driven over by a steel tracked bulldozer but the same supplier has restriction of use on the batteries to prevent fires so that tells me we must still have some way to go.
You might have a lot of people in your group that are happy about them and people may never know but get one person with problems and everyone will know.
We all need to work to get the best and safest results that benefits all RV users.
Ian

---

 G'day Ian, just received 550cca lithium start battery and will let you know how they go. A mate has used them for nearly a year and swears by them. There are just as many, if not more problems associated with lead acid batteries as well. To my mind if I get 5 years from of this battery it will be worth the cost and it does come with a 24 month warranty. The same goes for lithium storage, from what I've seen and have 200amp of lithium bought batteries on our house, so far they are many times superior to to gel, agm or flooded by a long way. I prefer the path Brian has gone, but don't have the expertise or knowledge to get that to happen, so am going down the built battery path gently. It does piss me off with built batteries, I can't control them and if a cell goes, that may be it for the whole thing.

---

"Brian you have an excellent system and T1 has every right to hold the knowledge he has gained and even though he states he comes from Gods Country I doubt that God lives there under the name of Terry."

Ian for many of us that don't believe in the mythical god T1 would be about as close as it comes as he has allowed us to live a life we had never thought possible on the road. He also has many more than the twelve apostles not only in the members of our own forum but also many around the world who have been able to remove the shackles of the dreaded BMS and been able to be comfortable in the systems they have. He has had offers for fully expenses paid trips overseas to advise on very large systems that we had not envisaged were around and we have systems as large as 900Ah @24V. I would assume you have not had these sort of offers ??
He also gives his time and wisdom for free so there are many similarities LOL Terry gives freely of his time and advises anyone who is prepared to retain the information but lately we have had inquiries from people who are inffact only trying to get the info for their gain so we are now getting very selective in who we accept and allow to see the information.
I remember a movie where a person claimed that it all was in "the book of life" well we consider we have the book of LiFePo4 LOL


"The LiFePo4 batteries still have some way to go to be a general purpose battery for all to use with confidence and at this stage people do not want to be married to there power system when they should be enjoying their travelling and leisure years."

If I am married to my batteries then let me tell you that it is indeed a good marriage. I do admit as in all good marriages I do have to some times in the winter make small compromises such as missing an occasional shower at night but I have existed for about three years without needing to connect to external power and often I am stationary for over a month while doing my voluntary work. I have batteries and a system I can trust and leave with confidence knowing that they will still be there and produce the power I need when I want it. Gone are the days of watching that I get the most charge I can before midday and then save so I can have a few hours of light and TV at night. I can use whatever power I require to enjoy my life. I can use my appliances as I want, not waiting for sun to come up or turn off because I have used XX Ah since night fall. I suppose as a marriage I feel as comfortable as the lucky people I often see walking hand in hand at the rest stop still madly in love in their final years. A normal day for me consists of cooking my breakfast of bacon of eggs or similar on my induction stove and cooking toast in a Kmart toaster at the same time and then when one is finished I make a good coffee using an Aldi coffee machine. During the day if I wish I can make pies in a pie maker and cook my evening meal in a slow cooker and even a loaf of bread if I require. During the summer months I have the option of having a read on my bed in the afternoon under an air conditioner after already having enough warm water for my shower. I have the ability to run the aircon and still add a bit of charge into my batteries at the same time. I also have the option of again using the aircon when retiring to give the bus a cool cabin to help me sleep.


"I have been involved with the lithium arena for some time now also and I believe they have great advantages over lead acid but when a bad report comes to me that needs investigating then I wonder how much of the vibe on them is marketing hype as currently I have a situation where a truck was fitted with LiFePo4 batteries replacing cranking batteries to give increase power to drive a cabin air conditioning and the system was supplied by someone who claims to be the best and has the best and two runs of the truck on the Coast went fine and then a run inland and the batteries caught fire. I know Terry states raw alternator charging is no good with those batteries and I agree but as long as there are people out there supplying product that fails there will be a cloud over how good these batteries really are."

It is obvious where he got the batteries from and they are a different system than what we use. NONE of our members use that type of battery. It was also obvious he went to the wrong person for advise, as we have many members who have now turned to Lithium for all their battery storage. My bus and many others have Lithiums in their start battery box, and this gives them the ability to use that power for house power and then when needed to start the motor. No wasted weight and more power to enhance our lives.

"I have a video of a LiFePo4 being dropped off a multi story building and driven over by a steel tracked bulldozer but the same supplier has restriction of use on the batteries to prevent fires so that tells me we must still have some way to go."

I have seen lots of videos and stories of things that some stupid people have done. I suggest he tell the military to change back to wet cells LOL The internet is full of bad truths. I would suggest that any battery that was run over by a large bulldozer would be more like confetti than a battery. We all know the case is made of plastic material not reinforced steel. Many supplies always err on the safe side. Gee we have warnings about the perils of just about everything we do or eat now days.

"You might have a lot of people in your group that are happy about them and people may never know but get one person with problems and everyone will know."

We are not worried about what others think, we are happy with our lot and happy to go about our ways. I will advise people by PM if I feel they need some advise or to warn them of BS ahead but that is all. I will not give the methods we use to achieve our goals though. It is not only the Rv users in Australia but many people all over the world that are thankful to T1 for advising them how to use their batteries to their advantage and feel save in their use. In all things there is someone who either perceives he has had problems or been hoodwinked or due to advise given from someone who has no knowledge and then runs into problems and this will always happen. You know the rubbish that was thrown at T1 by the so called experts who had never seen or held a Lithium battery but they still knew everything that was to know. Little did they know and possibly still don't accept that these batteries are not constrained by the restrictive rules of the old batteries. No longer is there the need for specialised equipment to charge or use these batteries and most of our members are now discarding their expensive RV specialised equipment. Most people when they settle down to the batteries replace their original chargers and small inverters as they now have the option to purchase cheaper inverter /chargers from EBAY that enable them to utilise the equipment they want to. We have systems and options to control all sorts of chargers from the basic EBAY specials to the flash expensive models that have options of multi stages etc and all that stuff that is no longer needed.

"We all need to work to get the best and safest results that benefits all RV users."

Many should have considered that in the early times and helped rather than push it under cover to make it possible for us to continue the experimenting. We have a good following now in our group and many are very knowledgeable people who have given much support and wisdom that could have/should have come from the respected RV forums where it was originally posted.

I think we should let this thread get back on topic as it has gone way of topic as most do when lithium is mentioned.

Regards

Brian

beiffe wrote:

---

"Brian you have an excellent system and T1 has every right to hold the knowledge he has gained and even though he states he comes from Gods Country I doubt that God lives there under the name of Terry."

Ian for many of us that don't believe in the mythical god T1 would be about as close as it comes as he has allowed us to live a life we had never thought possible on the road. He also has many more than the twelve apostles not only in the members of our own forum but also many around the world who have been able to remove the shackles of the dreaded BMS and been able to be comfortable in the systems they have. He has had offers for fully expenses paid trips overseas to advise on very large systems that we had not envisaged were around and we have systems as large as 900Ah @24V. I would assume you have not had these sort of offers ??
He also gives his time and wisdom for free so there are many similarities LOL Terry gives freely of his time and advises anyone who is prepared to retain the information but lately we have had inquiries from people who are inffact only trying to get the info for their gain so we are now getting very selective in who we accept and allow to see the information.
I remember a movie where a person claimed that it all was in "the book of life" well we consider we have the book of LiFePo4 LOL


"The LiFePo4 batteries still have some way to go to be a general purpose battery for all to use with confidence and at this stage people do not want to be married to there power system when they should be enjoying their travelling and leisure years."

If I am married to my batteries then let me tell you that it is indeed a good marriage. I do admit as in all good marriages I do have to some times in the winter make small compromises such as missing an occasional shower at night but I have existed for about three years without needing to connect to external power and often I am stationary for over a month while doing my voluntary work. I have batteries and a system I can trust and leave with confidence knowing that they will still be there and produce the power I need when I want it. Gone are the days of watching that I get the most charge I can before midday and then save so I can have a few hours of light and TV at night. I can use whatever power I require to enjoy my life. I can use my appliances as I want, not waiting for sun to come up or turn off because I have used XX Ah since night fall. I suppose as a marriage I feel as comfortable as the lucky people I often see walking hand in hand at the rest stop still madly in love in their final years. A normal day for me consists of cooking my breakfast of bacon of eggs or similar on my induction stove and cooking toast in a Kmart toaster at the same time and then when one is finished I make a good coffee using an Aldi coffee machine. During the day if I wish I can make pies in a pie maker and cook my evening meal in a slow cooker and even a loaf of bread if I require. During the summer months I have the option of having a read on my bed in the afternoon under an air conditioner after already having enough warm water for my shower. I have the ability to run the aircon and still add a bit of charge into my batteries at the same time. I also have the option of again using the aircon when retiring to give the bus a cool cabin to help me sleep.


"I have been involved with the lithium arena for some time now also and I believe they have great advantages over lead acid but when a bad report comes to me that needs investigating then I wonder how much of the vibe on them is marketing hype as currently I have a situation where a truck was fitted with LiFePo4 batteries replacing cranking batteries to give increase power to drive a cabin air conditioning and the system was supplied by someone who claims to be the best and has the best and two runs of the truck on the Coast went fine and then a run inland and the batteries caught fire. I know Terry states raw alternator charging is no good with those batteries and I agree but as long as there are people out there supplying product that fails there will be a cloud over how good these batteries really are."

It is obvious where he got the batteries from and they are a different system than what we use. NONE of our members use that type of battery. It was also obvious he went to the wrong person for advise, as we have many members who have now turned to Lithium for all their battery storage. My bus and many others have Lithiums in their start battery box, and this gives them the ability to use that power for house power and then when needed to start the motor. No wasted weight and more power to enhance our lives.

"I have a video of a LiFePo4 being dropped off a multi story building and driven over by a steel tracked bulldozer but the same supplier has restriction of use on the batteries to prevent fires so that tells me we must still have some way to go."

I have seen lots of videos and stories of things that some stupid people have done. I suggest he tell the military to change back to wet cells LOL The internet is full of bad truths. I would suggest that any battery that was run over by a large bulldozer would be more like confetti than a battery. We all know the case is made of plastic material not reinforced steel. Many supplies always err on the safe side. Gee we have warnings about the perils of just about everything we do or eat now days.

"You might have a lot of people in your group that are happy about them and people may never know but get one person with problems and everyone will know."

We are not worried about what others think, we are happy with our lot and happy to go about our ways. I will advise people by PM if I feel they need some advise or to warn them of BS ahead but that is all. I will not give the methods we use to achieve our goals though. It is not only the Rv users in Australia but many people all over the world that are thankful to T1 for advising them how to use their batteries to their advantage and feel save in their use. In all things there is someone who either perceives he has had problems or been hoodwinked or due to advise given from someone who has no knowledge and then runs into problems and this will always happen. You know the rubbish that was thrown at T1 by the so called experts who had never seen or held a Lithium battery but they still knew everything that was to know. Little did they know and possibly still don't accept that these batteries are not constrained by the restrictive rules of the old batteries. No longer is there the need for specialised equipment to charge or use these batteries and most of our members are now discarding their expensive RV specialised equipment. Most people when they settle down to the batteries replace their original chargers and small inverters as they now have the option to purchase cheaper inverter /chargers from EBAY that enable them to utilise the equipment they want to. We have systems and options to control all sorts of chargers from the basic EBAY specials to the flash expensive models that have options of multi stages etc and all that stuff that is no longer needed.

"We all need to work to get the best and safest results that benefits all RV users."

Many should have considered that in the early times and helped rather than push it under cover to make it possible for us to continue the experimenting. We have a good following now in our group and many are very knowledgeable people who have given much support and wisdom that could have/should have come from the respected RV forums where it was originally posted.

I think we should let this thread get back on topic as it has gone way of topic as most do when lithium is mentioned.

Regards

Brian

---

 G'day Brian I may be wrong, but lithium supporters seem to face the same negativity and denial of fact, as those using open source computing. The supposed experts seem desperate to not move into this century and loathe to the point, where their inadequacy gets so huge they resort to lies, abuse and denigration, of all those who have benefited from it.

Learnt my lesson here, overflowing with experts with no knowledge or experience other than enslaved propaganda and fear of change. So won't be saying anything of relevance any more and certainly will steer clear from mentioning lithium, open source or anything which would benefit and help travellers lives. To many deniers of reality here for interesting and informative discussions.

 

-- Edited by native pepper on Sunday 26th of January 2014 09:38:11 AM

beiffe wrote:

---

Peter I did do a large reply explaining not only what I can do in my bus as well as many more of our users are doing but it does not belong here as the discussion has cause many problems on other forums and I don't want that to start here. But believe me we have progressed way beyond what we planned in the start or even dreamed off.
=----------------------

All the wishes of my system that I had at the start of the experiment have been fulfilled and more so I am a happy and so are the other members of our private forum that we were forced to create so we could continue the experiments in a constructive way.

I am happy to giver basic information by PM in what I do but will not disclose the main information, as that is the exclusive right of T1 and all on our forum are prepared to accept that he holds all rights to the information HE gained through hard work and forward thinking and we just help him to further that knowledge and are prepared to accept him as the holder of that information.

HE alone can decide who gets what.

Regards
Brian

-- Edited by beiffe on Saturday 25th of January 2014 08:59:29 AM

---

 

HI Brian

YES,you DID AFTER A LOT OF REQUESTS, finally post full dtetails of your charging arrangement to be ABLE to run ALL your equipment  BUT the trouble was THAT took a looong time to be forcoming [I ,of course, KNEW what you must of had ]

The prior posts gave good reason to believe the TRUE believers  were claiming miracles from the LIFe PO4s TO do what you claimed]

That included claims by "SOMEONE" that they  were 100% efficient in both charge & discharge

The only way to prove or disprove THAT IS BY WATTHRS In ,versus Whrs out!!

THAT IS  WHY WATTHRS CAME INTO THE COMMENTS ON THAT OTHER FORUM!!!

The other, yet to be proven, is the long life in actual service

ALL the other features were/ ARE well recognised & accepted

THAT included:

weight for Amphrs

relatively flat voltage gradient /curve And the need for THAT to be accurately monitored[one of MY very early points}

LOW internal resistance [high charge  acceptance & discharge rates]

Better charge & discharge effeciency ,

DEEPER depth of discharge [WITH CARE] without affecting battery life

 

 

PeterQ

This thread is about AMPS so should we let it get back to that so for me this is it.
If someone wants info then PM me and I will try and keep up but I don't think it is worth stiring the pot.
Regards
Brian

Hi Peter,
If the task is calculating a power usage at a controller voltage, then Wh is the most accurate method, no arguments there, but the whole argument falls down when the voltage is constantly changing doesnt it? It is not possible to simple formulate Wh to Ah in either direction is it? It is not possible to calculate Wh in or Wh out when determining battery charging/discharging as the voltage constantly changes and there is a resistance factor involved that influences the voltage reading causig it to be higher or low than the voltage would be if the battery was rested.
When it comes to batteries, the only constant is amps, as the voltage drops the amps must increase to supply the same number of watts (volts x amps = watts) and the same the other way around when recharging. If you measure the amps in and the amps out, you can roughly calculate how efficiently the battery stores the energy, subtract this percentage away from the amps going in, then the number of secs the number of amps went in divided by 60 gives amp mins, and divided by 60 again gives amp hours (Ah). If this formula remains relatively constant then a reasonably accurate record of what capacity remains in the battery can be quickly calculated within the circuitry of a battery monitor and displayed as Ah on a screen for the user to read. Of what value would the same display in Wh be to the average user Peter?
It's a case of using a terminology the user understands and can quickly relate to, if he has a 100Ah battery and only 50Ah remain the user can quickly calculate they have used half, Wh in v Wh out isn't going to give an easy to read display is it, there are too many factors needed to be added to the formula to get an answer even close to correct.

T1 Terry

HI Terry
This has ALL been very heavily discussed on other forums
BY myself , Collyn & SEVERAL OTHERS

IT would be a total waste of time & space to go through ALL that again to try & convince YOU that the ONLY TRUE measure of Electrical POWER & Electrical energy supplied OR consumed ARE WATTS & WATTHRS
Amphrs are A CONVENIENT BUT INACCURATE measurement ,requiring only CHEAP measuring devices
Generally acceptable for most battery situations
BUT not suitable for efficiency comparision purposes & on their own cannot determine battery SOC

Because whether you understand it or not WATT HRS is the only COMMONLY used ,Acceptable measurement of ELECTRCIAL ENERGY

Dspite Beiffe's denials YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT TOOK to get the SIZE of his CHARGING system posted, IT WAS it seems secret Business.

YOU, yourself refused to post any details OF the SOLAR capacity required to RUN ALL the gear that was being boasted could be run!!!Big claims were made & yes such could be run, but for some strange reason the details of the SOLAR or GENERATOR capacity was a SECRET DETAIL to only be known by the GROUP
THAT is why the "MAGIC battery tag came about
FORo those who knew no better IT could be taken that they were magic batterries that made their own power .
Yet, THAT Still seems to be going on with the true believers
"I can run, well you name it "
BUT RARELY "I ALSO HAVE xxxxWatts of solar panels TO KEEP THE BATTERIES CHARGED"

To others My apologies for THIS thread going OT

My Mention of LIPOFE04s on an earlier post to this thread was BECAUSE I DO KNOW & UNDERSTAND these batterries, BUT more than that I KNOW about ELECTRICALs both in THEORY & IN PRACTISE,
I also KNOW that the basic laws of PHYSICS are still TRUE
When one state changes to another state THERE ARE ALWAYS ENERGY LOSSES!!
ALL the above has been pointed out Ad nausem!! ON a now closed forum [CMCA]
Sadly. when one is dealing with NON electrical people the message can be very hard to get through


PeterQ

Amen Darrell

Cheers John

Well it is thanks to the pedantic attitude of a few they have now been instrumental in preventing the majority of people from gaining the advantage of using the technology as we have now decided for our own sanity we will not longer be posting any information on the use of Lithium batteries on any open forum.
It is now up to the back bitters etc to buy their own batteries and do their own research if they themselves wish to gain the information.
We have enough people to further our own research and we will continue with the group we have, but we are unable or willing to continue to continue going over the same ground and meeting the same negative statements.
We had hoped to introduce a better way for the average traveler to get a better life on the road and we have in our own minds achieved this end.
We now can accept any form of charging and due to the wide knowledge on our forum we have several ways to achieve this. Some very basic and some very complex depending on the skills and desires of the individual user.
Because all the members on our forum were prepared to work towards the end we have succeeded in having off the shelf items that we can combine to control the charging and have protection from any foreseen scenario.
It will be interesting to see how the other people left can design their systems by buying their batteries and then experimenting to achieve their systems.
This was not our intended scenario but it has been forced on by the same attitude that originally forced us to go into private development.
Regards
Brian

Well as from now there will be now advise on what we have or do.
Anyone wanting to go into the new batteries I am sorry to say will now be on their own and will have to make the mistakes we did. They will not have the expertise such as T1 has or the people who have already done it so it is back to three years ago for all the new users, unless you are good enough to piece some of the information together and then go from there, but believe me there is a lot not there so be aware there are traps for the unwary or those who cant let go of the old thinking of batteries they know and start thinking and experimenting a new way and believe me it is not easy even when you have been involved.
Regards
Brian

oldboar wrote:

---

My apologies to other readers but I've had enough of pedantic argument that achieves nothing.

I've been following many of your comments on various topics with interest, Oldtrack. As an electrician by trade & holder of an Associate Diploma of Electrical Engineering I'm very curious about your qualifications as to my mind you are a great example of the old engineers adage of "baffle 'em with bull****". I totally agree with your comment re the the message being hard to get through to non electrical people. Do you not think that this may be the reason that OTHERS post in terms that the average non electrical person (the vast majority of those interested in this topic) can understand.

Darrell

---

 

HI Darrell 

 

Perhaps you should try to explain the problems in non electrical terms??

Perhaps YOU should read my post ,were I do try to give non technical replies until some 'Expert "comes in with "opinions"

ONE thing YOU should find is  I AM ALWAYS PREPARED to answer, In detail ,If ANYONE seeks further advise !!

The Main people invoved in the subjest of LiFePos claim to KNOW electrical matters !

 With ALL your Quals You may even b

 

PeterQ

All well & good Peter. I was merely pointing out the fact that the vast majority of readers have no background in, or knowledge of technically correct explanations. Strange as it may seem to some, the majority prefer the KISS principle (keep it simple, stupid) as it is then in terms they are familiar with in their RV experience. Quite simply, pedantic nitpicking or clumsy attempts at information gathering for dissemination by the so called experts on these forums has severely restricted access by the general RV community to the results of experimentation by a small group willing to "suck it & see". In that vein, this is the second time I've asked for enlightenment re certain qualifications on this forum with the same result. I gave up reading the technical forum for months in disgust at the attitude of some that CLAIMED to have technical & practical experience the last time, will probably have a holiday again.

Darrell

C'mon sunshine, don't be shy. Tell us all where you gained your exalted knowledge from. As for me, I have no problems helping others out IF I'm asked but by the same token I don't continually expound on my supposed theory & practical experience on virtually every electrical post (usually denigrating the posts of others I might add). Enough is enough, I believe I know you for the type you are. Last post from me on the subject.

Darrell