Interesting topic last night at happy hour.

shekon · Guru

Interesting topic last night at happy hour.

GaryKelly · Guru

Can you imagine the number of failures?

Big Gorilla · Guru

You state the topic bought no opposition, meaning most were in agreement but maybe a few undecided. Personally I think it's a good idea. A short driving course with the eventual issue if a Certificate might make drivers at least more confident. I would not tow a caravan because I'm absolutely hopeless at reversing when towing, even with a box trailer or boat.

shekon · Guru

BG everybody agreed. It came out of a conversation about people trying to reverse caravans and fifth wheelers into a CP site and then of course the different things we all see on the road.

I know there are courses available now for caravan towing and 4WD, so just have all owners have to do the course like getting a drivers licence now one has to do a certain amount of hours with a driving school.

oldbobsbus · Guru

The idea has lots of merit and I for one am all for it .. smile

It raises a couple of questions in my mind..

At what point would you need an endorsement to tow :- box trailer..car trailer..camper trailer.. or just to tow a caravan..

Here is a tip for those that have trouble backing a trailer..

Watch the trailer in your side mirrors and to keep it going straight ease your steering wheel towards the mirror you see the trailer getting out of line in..

Practice makes perfect..

Gerty Dancer · Guru

Yeah, its been talked about many many times, and I think its sensible for those who've only ever towed a box trailer to the tip on a Sunday to do a course. You see people towing with no mirrors, getting into all kinds of predicaments and being a danger to others, because they just didn't know.
Then there could be an incentive such as reduced insurance premiums.

Big Gorilla · Guru

oldbobsbus wrote:
The idea has lots of merit and I for one am all for it ..
It raises a couple of questions in my mind..
At what point would you need an endorsement to tow :- box trailer..car trailer..camper trailer.. or just to tow a caravan..

Here is a tip for those that have trouble backing a trailer..
Watch the trailer in your side mirrors and to keep it going straight ease your steering wheel towards the mirror you see the trailer getting out of line in..
Practice makes perfect..

Probably a trailer/caravan over a certain weight. I don't think a course to reverse a box trailer would be necessary (Who am I to talk !!! I'm hopeless) but certainly a large vehicle such as a caravan. I'll take your advice on trailer reversing and try it next time !! biggrin biggrin

native pepper · Senior Member

There's a big difference between towing a caravan and a box trailer, the same as there is a big difference between driving an urban semi and a road train. A licence to tow a van, should revolve around size and weight, camper vans and small vans don't present to many problems for most drivers. Once you get 5m behind you, there are other dynamics which come into play and the majority of vanners don't have a clue about them, until they take over in an incident and calamity strikes.

From my road experience, the majority of van accidents are caused by inexperience, arrogance and lack, or refusal to understand what they are in control of. The number of braking jack knifing, damage from short turning circles and backing, is a laugh minute. Unless you can control your vehicle in all situations, you shouldn't be driving it anywhere on a road, so licensing for towing vans and 5th wheelers over X metres, should be compulsory.

Grams · Guru

I have no problem towing a trailer or caravan, well at least the previous ones we have owned, but our new one is the biggest we have ever had (tall not long, with air con on top). I am hopeless at reversing anything, Les has tried to teach me. Les can reverse triples and road train trucks anywhere. When he worked for Mobil oil back in the day, him and a friend used to reverse the truck they shared on different shifts, into all sorts of awkward and hard places and the other person had to get it out. So. I have no worries in the world with Les backing up our caravan.

But getting back to what you said, yes I think a training course would be great. But what about all of those who don't live near towns, and there are no such facilities available here for this?

Grams

Golddetectornomad · Senior Member

Look at the countless hours of unbridled fun I'm sure we have all enjoyed watching Dorrie and Dan reversing into a rather cramped Caravan site with obstacles like cabins to the front of them, and little rock feature statements besides trees on both sides plus, not to mention, the 'overshoot' of the Caravan occupying the behind site....plus the unmistakable smell of burning clutch in Dan's nostrils, and the thought running through his racing mind...why the hell did I think I needed such a bloooody large rig and oversize 4x4 just for Dorrie, Dingo the yelper, and me.....and none of the watchers appear to appreciate my ""rig"" just my current dilemma.....sitting there with their bloody white and red wines, elbows on the tables and feeling 'the serenity of the moment'..for them...and is that John Williamson's rendition of 'Old Farts in Caravan Parks' Dan can hear wafting across from some heartless persons stereo?.......and hawk eyes all on Dorrie and Dan looking for the slightest show of unravelling before them.....
Finally they 'do it' and Dan gets out and gives Dorrie a squeeze, perhaps much harder than is normally required, to complete their 'soliloquy'.......little realizing each of those smarmy watchers were in exactly the same predicament a short while ago and endured the same condescending stares......it's the law of the Jungle...and who would deprive us all of such enjoyment by giving them a certificate of merit to display for driving/backing competence?.....
My apologies if we really have a Doorie and Dan registered here......lol...I choose to end my story now....Hoo Roo

Delta18 · Guru

It is much easier to reverse a caravan, or even a semi-trailer if it comes to that than a 6x4 trailer.

Grams · Guru

Yep it's fairly easy for the first ones in, but gets harder and harder as the place fills up. When Dorrie and Dan did it, Les and I would have gone over and congratulated him on doing it...but Les has been known to see if they need help parking it before Dan got too hot and sweaty.

Grams

Golddetectornomad · Senior Member

Hi Grams,...pragmatic but so much less fun....I guess I'm a sick little puppy with my sense of humour.....when I'm backing into a site..I just sing...give me land..lots of land...and the sunny sky above..but don't fence me in ......seems to work..only run over my wife's shoe to date but missed her toes..we use UHF to scream at each other.....lol...Hoo Roo

brian · Guru

Golddetectornomad wrote:
Look at the countless hours of unbridled fun I'm sure we have all enjoyed watching Dorrie and Dan reversing into a rather cramped Caravan site with obstacles like cabins to the front of them, and little rock feature statements besides trees on both sides plus, not to mention, the 'overshoot' of the Caravan occupying the behind site....plus the unmistakable smell of burning clutch in Dan's nostrils, and the thought running through his racing mind...why the hell did I think I needed such a bloooody large rig and oversize 4x4 just for Dorrie, Dingo the yelper, and me.....and none of the watchers appear to appreciate my ""rig"" just my current dilemma.....sitting there with their bloody white and red wines, elbows on the tables and feeling 'the serenity of the moment'..for them...and is that John Williamson's rendition of 'Old Farts in Caravan Parks' Dan can hear wafting across from some heartless persons stereo?.......and hawk eyes all on Dorrie and Dan looking for the slightest show of unravelling before them.....
Finally they 'do it' and Dan gets out and gives Dorrie a squeeze, perhaps much harder than is normally required, to complete their 'soliloquy'.......little realizing each of those smarmy watchers were in exactly the same predicament a short while ago and endured the same condescending stares......it's the law of the Jungle...and who would deprive us all of such enjoyment by giving them a certificate of merit to display for driving/backing competence?.....
My apologies if we really have a Doorie and Dan registered here......lol...I choose to end my story now....Hoo Roo

Brilliant..

Gerty Dancer · Guru

Grams wrote:
Yep it's fairly easy for the first ones in, but gets harder and harder as the place fills up. When Dorrie and Dan did it, Les and I would have gone over and congratulated him on doing it...but Les has been known to see if they need help parking it before Dan got too hot and sweaty.

Grams

I have on a couple of occasions asked for help. Himself would die first, but that's just a boy thing.

NeilandRaine · Guru

Funny how a conversation about a license turned into one on reversing. On licence I think some one who has driven to work every day for 40 years in his Toyota Corolla then retires and buys a Land Cruiser and a 21 ft van should really be checked out for some form of competence. (Maybe caravan sellers could provide some training) Some of us survive not being the best reverser around, the main thing is that you know what and how to do it when you have your tug and van pointed down the road.
Have you noticed that when no one is about you can back straight into a site without a problem, soon as someone starts to watch you stuff up.
I am not the best but far from the worse when it comes to reversing but an experience at the Oasis caravan park in Darwin had me in awe. The bloke from the park just walked beside my open window instructing me into a very tight spot, probably the best directions I have ever had. Apologies' to Raine who always directs me.

redjcw · Veteran Member

Will be picking up a new 23Ft van in February. Have not towed for a while and certainly not that big. Enquired about towing course and was told...wait till you get your van so it will be more meaningful......in the meantime I will have to get the van home and parked without the benefit of a course. I will still do a course to make sure I get as much practical knowledge as possible before heading out on a trip. I have had experience with switching from small to large vehicles and towing 2 tonnes plus with a car trailer and more interestingly cows in a stock trailer. Extended mirrors will be fitted and I will be taking it steady to get the rig home. I think the adrenaline will be in evidence.......the idea of a compulsory course appeals rather than say a driving test........

Vegemite · Veteran Member

My solution to reversing caravans etc. A tow ball on the front of the vehicle if at all possible.
Makes life very easy.

Landfall · Guru

Can't understand why this conversation comes up it's always the person towing the caravan that needs the "special" licence?

I've seen a lot of motorhomes towing vehicles that need further driving experience.

I've also seen long wheel base campervans and motorhhomes not towing that need further driving experience.

I've witnessed people who have paid good money for a towing course that should have realized that they should never hook up a caravan ever again.

Further licencing, testing etc. is not really going to benefit anyone other than the governments coffers.

Besides, the licencing departments do not have the expertise to carry out such tests.

To outsource the tests to contractors opens a huge can of worms involving bribery, etc for said licence.

The incidents of a caravan fatality while trying to back it into a caravan site would almost nil.

The embarrassment,, would be off the end of the scale.

I'm sure, and I do know of, people who find out they cannot handle the huge tandem van that they thought they must have, along with the big 4WD (or large M/H) soon get rid of them for a more peaceful existence.

Ken

chris & terry · Senior Member

Yes Landfall. Can I state I have trained on & raced push bikes on both Sydney & country NSW roads, ridden motor bikes in Sydney, drove cars in Sydney & in most states, driven light & heavy rigids in Sydney & country NSW. But when I bought my caravan it was the first time I towed an articulated vehicle. I have found that having spent time on the road over many years & with different modes of transport, I like to think I have an appreciation of what others on the road may be capable of. Trying to pull up a 24ton load in a hurry after a car has jumped into the following space you have left, or diced with traffic while on a push bike or motor bike gives you a different perspective on road use. A little experience & a lot of common sense goes a long way. But now in my later years I tend to amble along, watch my mirrors more & more & just let the world go by, (hopefully unhindered by me). In earlier years I was of the opinion that everyone should hold multiple class licenses so as to have an appreciation of other road users. But now I tend to have a full time job looking after myself.

terry

shekon · Guru

Loved the sentiment Goldie, I am sure we have all provided entertainment for those who have been before us.

Landfall it was just a conversation, it want actually about reversing,well just a little, but the overall driving and capabilities of folk in their set ups.
I guess like any of these subjects it comes down to preaching to the converted in a way.
Don't know about the bribery stuff, my sister has just taken two years to get her BDouble licence, mainly because she had to master the reversing stuff, and believe me all her instructors were very straight down the line. I am proud to say though my little sister is now a fully fledged truckie.

Interesting though when one thinks about it, either driving a tug and caravan or a fifth wheeler or towing a car behind a MH, it be almost the same length as a small or not so small truck anyways.

Santa · Guru

Having to do a course and pass a test is a great idea, have advocated it for years.

I really don't much care whether or not you can reverse a van, incompetence here usually only results in some damage and financial loss, what really concerns me is the lack of driving skills and complete lack of understanding how poorly distributed loads endanger other road users, its an unnerving sight to have a vehicle heading toward you with the caravan fishtailing out of control.

Caravan wipe outs are commonplace, training and testing would help to prevent some of them at least.

deb-gary · Senior Member

we watched and older gentleman trying to back his small tinny into the water the other day where the boat ramp is designed for 4 boats if necessary as soon as he put his head out of the window to see where he was going I figured no chance!sure enough when we came back a short time later his tow vehicle was not there as he had given up.this is an example where a course would have done him the world of good and he could have enjoyed a days fishing,and as an earlier respondent said reversing a caravan is easier than a box trailer.(nb im glad my wife can reverse can I am a novice)

oldbobsbus · Guru

Being able to reverse with a trailer of any description is an absolute MUST if you are heading of for any reason anywhere with a trailer..

Simple situation:- You are traveling along a single lane road or street and there is an accident/blocked road ahead of you and the road will be blocked all day and the only place to turn around is 200mtrs behind you, if you can't back up then you are gunna be very unpopular with anyone infront of you that wants to go around the accident besides being stuck there all day yourself..
If you cant back with a trailer attached then best you stay at home untill you learn to drive properly..
There is more to driving than just going forward..
As someone else said loading the Trailer/Caravan correctly is also part of driving and knowing the signs when it is incorrectly set up so you can do something about it before you have trouble..

johnq · Guru

Yesterday when I was giving some driving experience to a Learner in my Landcruiser TD auto, a mug lair boy racer put the boot to the floor in his Alfa to cut across two lanes of a roundabout to take his 'right of way'. Hand on his horn and with his head facing sideways to scowl at the innocent learner, he cut our water off as he took the left exit immediately ahead of us. He had been in the inner lane of the two lane roundabout and well behind us, but he accelerated hard to go to the outer lane and first exit.

To those who believe that bans, restrictions, regulations and State control fix everything, I know where you are coming from and share your concerns, but you are barking up the wrong tree. There is more than enough in the present licensing and rules to require and encourage all who will take heed to do so, and that includes seeking more instruction and researching rules on vans and trailers.

Fact is, you could easily rationalise a refresher qualifying test and licence update for any (it is all) who are driving vehicles with performance markedly different to the vehicle they first qualified in. For example, if that was a 1958 FC Holden originally, you should not be allowed to drive (say) a Toyota Camry without re-qualifying because of the Camry's vastly improved power to weight ratio - chalk and cheese in acceleration and top speed.

Are special licences really the answer? Or is it just making busywork and career pyramids for bureaucrats, and inconvenience and more taxes for the great majority of road users who already obey the rules and develop extra skills as required? There are some on caravan sites for example who say they are holders of a truck licence and are experts on all things articulated and heavy, but who say things like 'might is right on the road' and 'all must travel at the speed limit so as not to get in others' way - especially in the way of trucks'.

Isn't demanding a new licence in fact 'black and white' thinking, where the problem exists in shades of grey? There are antisocial, ignorant and wilful people already licensed to drive. Honestly now, what difference with another licence test?

Superficially at least, long term and if that fails, permanent removal of drivers licence would be a better treatment for the problems discussed.

So, should loss of the right to drive be easily qualified for and applied without 'yes, but' and excuses? Should all infringements of road rules result in some disqualification period, starting with a month disqualification outside rostered work hours for minor offences, plus fine?

How serious are we, or do we just want to annoy the good citizens (ie with extra tests and taxes) who already obey laws and take due care?

-- Edited by johnq on Wednesday 15th of January 2014 05:13:07 PM

deverall11 · Guru

Johnq, very well explained. My only query is: you need to have a truck license to drive a truck that weighs over 4.5t. Caravan weighing in at between 2.5t and 3.5t, tug weighing in at 3t and you are over the 4.5t and driving an articulated vehicle.
I looked at changing from car and caravan to a bus converted as a M/H but need another license.
What's wrong with this picture?
Larry

Two Strays · Senior Member

If there was to a requirement for a licence to tow a caravan, there will be a major economic event for the country.

The owners who steadfastly reject the idea will sell their vans. 25% that drivers who sit the test would fail and subsequently sell their vans.

Thats 50% of the vans off the road resulting in the following:

Hundreds of caravans for sale. At least you may get a cheap deal if you want one.

Thousands of liters of fuel will not be consumed, therefore, pollution will be reduced, money will be saved and fuel costs may come down because there will be an oversupply of fuel.

Caravan parks will have a reasonto support closing down free camp spots because they would not be breaking even.

The purchase for four wheeled drives will be reduced, therefore, the manufacturers will have to close down selling agents.

Nursing homes will be overcrowded.

Vagrants will be begging on the city streets because they have no van to free camp in the bush.

Any more reasons for supporting such a stupid suggestion of needing a special licence to tow a caravan?

Happy caravanning

oldbobsbus · Guru

Two Strays wrote:
If there was to a requirement for a licence to tow a caravan, there will be a major economic event for the country.
The owners who steadfastly reject the idea will sell their vans. 25% that drivers who sit the test would fail and subsequently sell their vans.
Thats 50% of the vans off the road resulting in the following:
Hundreds of caravans for sale. At least you may get a cheap deal if you want one.
Thousands of liters of fuel will not be consumed, therefore, pollution will be reduced, money will be saved and fuel costs may come down because there will be an oversupply of fuel.
Caravan parks will have a reasonto support closing down free camp spots because they would not be breaking even.
The purchase for four wheeled drives will be reduced, therefore, the manufacturers will have to close down selling agents.
Nursing homes will be overcrowded.
Vagrants will be begging on the city streets because they have no van to free camp in the bush.

Any more reasons for supporting such a stupid suggestion of needing a special licence to tow a caravan?

Happy caravanning

Well at least you agree that there are lots of drivers out there incapable of towing a caravan..

maybe in the interest of safety on the roads they would be better off staying at home.. biggrin

Two Strays · Senior Member

oddbobsbus

Mate, you missed the tongue in the cheek

Brian

oldbobsbus · Guru

Two Strays wrote:
oddbobsbus
Mate, you missed the tongue in the cheek
Brian

Sorry mate,

I am just soo over drivers that cannot control a car let alone a car with a trailer/van attached..

I live on a country road and last year I had 5 cars come through my fences because of their inability to control their car in other than perfect conditions. cry