Caravan Park Outlets

Pam_Chris · Veteran Member

Caravan Park Outlets

KFT · Guru

Hi Chris

I am happy to open the bidding on your issue.

Is the extension lead you were using genuinely 15 Amp?

Are you certain the socket at the van was pushed ALL the way in?

Does the lead you have, have a shroud or projection past the holes where the pins go in?

your answers to my questions will help me diagnose what the problem was.

frank

Pam_Chris · Veteran Member

Hi Frank

I believe cord is 15 amp is, its in good condition and checked and tag at work yearly and has been used in many other cp's without hassles.

It was all the way in and the van connectiont is stepped to receive the shroud.

hako · Guru

I am totally illiterate regarding this, but may I suggest that the van circuit breaker tripped before the park circuit breaker tripped because the van CB happens to be more sensitive whereas the parks CB is a bit more robust. OR, the van CB incorporates a RCD and the RCD tripped. Re the active pin welded to the socket - I have this happen to me when using a welder attached to an old well used socket where the pin loosely fits into the socket. Most of my power tools have burn marks or craters on the active/neutral pins from loose fitting sockets....they all are pretty old though.
Just some thoughts.
Regards

Denis

oldtrack123 · Guru

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 11th of January 2014 12:09:13 AM

oldtrack123 · Guru

Pam_Chris wrote:
Happy New Year to All!
We have just returned from our annual pilgrimage to Victor Harbor, for those who haven't been there its a really great place to relax.
All went well except for a power overload issue where the Caravan Park power supply failed to to be cut off by the outlet circuit breaker. The van system operated fine and shut everything down, no problems there. However when we were packing up we found that the plug and socket into the van had been fused together on the active line but had still kept working.
To me this highlights a potential problem (other than dopey me overloading the system) that from the cp outlets to the van is not be classified as protected. Thus I am looking for recommendations on the best way to overcome the situation. At this point I an looking for a hard wired RCD/Trip to go on the plug end of the cable into the cp outlet.
Any suggestions welcome
Chris

HI Chris

If the plug * socket overheated you had a massive overload or & this is more likely the plug & socket were making poor contact

That could be due to EITHER;

[a] not being fully pushed in

Dirty contact faces with either the plug or the socket

THAT can cuse serious local heating & often fire, you were lucky !!

There is no means of protection against that sort of problem EXCEPT personal observation

It is always a good idea with plugs & /or sockets to regularly check them for excesive heating [especially if they are not regularly used OR are exposed to some extent to the weather[the contact faces oxidise leading to high resistance

Such connections SHOULD NEVER GET MORE THAN WARM

I do hope both the inlet socket & the Extension lead plug have been replaced or you could have the same problem very soon[perhaps NOT so lucky the next time

Fom the Park pillar SHALL be protected by both an overload circuit breaker & a RCDunder the Aus standards

You should not needL another plug in set up unless you using an illegal 10 to 15A adapter

Another RCD would make no difference to detecting LOCALISED HEATING

PeterQ

Ontos45 · Guru

In van parks where I have been, saw that the park 240VAC outlet was fitted with a 20Amp RCD whilst my van is fitted with a 16Amp RCD. Surmise that when your plug fused, your van RCD tripped before the park RCD.

brian · Guru

Any fusing of the inlet plug would not affect the van RCD. The RCD or RCBO as the case may be will only react to downstream events.

KFT · Guru

Pam_Chris wrote:
Hi Frank

I believe cord is 15 amp is, its in good condition and checked and tag at work yearly and has been used in many other cp's without hassles.
It was all the way in and the van connectiont is stepped to receive the shroud.

Thanks Chris

I will second Oldtrack123 comments here. If the socket has overheated it is usually due to poor contact. Likely if the lead is very old or has partially pulled out for some reason. I would expect that an overload would not cause that effect just on the active pin but on active and neutral as the current would be the same in both conductors.

did your cb trip on overload or RCD?

some older van park services have not yet been upgraded so there may not be an RCD upstream of your van.

to be on the safe side I recommend you get the inlet replaced as the fault could have been caused by a loose connection at the back of the inlet. I would also replace the lead.

hope that helps

frank

-- Edited by KFT on Saturday 11th of January 2014 10:55:50 AM

Big Gorilla · Guru

A lot of these electrical problems are difficult to diagnose without actually looking at it. Every one has a different suggestion on what might have happened. It could have even been a loose connection in the extension socket that plugs into the van inlet socket... If this or any problem is not something simple, I suggest you have an electrical contractor look at the problem and determine the solution. If you are not qualified, don't try to fix it yourself. 240 volts can kill and can also be a fire hazard. It's just not worth it.

Let me conclude with a story about people's ignorance of the dangers of electricity. I was driving along a street one time and I saw a man with a hose shooting water up a power pole. On top of the pole were 4 bare wires carrying 415 volts, and a cat. They guy was trying to hose the cat so it would come down the pole. I immediately stopped, and explained to this guy that if I hadn't stopped, he would probably be dead if the water hit one of the wires. No need to say anymore !!

oldtrack123 · Guru

Big Gorilla wrote:
A lot of these electrical problems are difficult to diagnose without actually looking at it. Every one has a different suggestion on what might have happened. It could have even been a loose connection in the extension socket that plugs into the van inlet socket... If this or any problem is not something simple, I suggest you have an electrical contractor look at the problem and determine the solution. If you are not qualified, don't try to fix it yourself. 240 volts can kill and can also be a fire hazard. It's just not worth it.
Let me conclude with a story about people's ignorance of the dangers of electricity. I was driving along a street one time and I saw a man with a hose shooting water up a power pole. On top of the pole were 4 bare wires carrying 415 volts, and a cat. They guy was trying to hose the cat so it would come down the pole. I immediately stopped, and explained to this guy that if I hadn't stopped, he would probably be dead if the water hit one of the wires. No need to say anymore !!

HI

It should be well understood by ALL who read forums on 240Velectrical matters THAT ANY WORK ON FIXED WIRING SHALL BE CARRIED OUT BY A LICENSED ELECRICIAN

Fixed wiring can be fairly simply defined as any work that requires a TOOL to connect or disconnect

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 11th of January 2014 12:25:07 PM

_wombat_ · Master (of Mischief)

Good advice OT123, if I have elec problems at home or in the van I get on the phone.

deverall11 · Guru

We are currently in Victor Harbor, leaving tomorrow. Spent a week at Port Elliot CP prior to going to Victor Harbor. This whole area gets so busy during this period, it's no wonders there are overloads everywhere. The locals reckon there are so many people here that one day the land will tip into the ocean.

Pam_Chris · Veteran Member

Thanks for the advice all

We have now decided to replace all our supply cables with quality ones supplied by a reputable company and I have put in a new inlet.
But I will keep searching for a trip That I can hard wire onto the cable at the pole end. Having seen the work that is done by various electrical contractors (not having a go at any members 'cause my father was an illuminating engineer/sparky) on gov jobs I am now becoming paranoid and no longer trust others supply systems have been maintained correctly.

Thanks Chris

oldtrack123 · Guru

HI Chris

I think you will find it hard to get an AUS "APPROVED" EXtension lead with a 15A OLCB built in

Do not even consider the orange outlet boxs such as Arlec ,Clipsal etc OR sold at your local hardware store

THOSE ARE NOT APPROVED FOR USE WITH TRANSPORTABLE STRUCTURES

You should also be aware that making up & using a NON APPROVED electrical device is illegal under the various STATES ELECTRICALREGULATIONS

PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 11th of January 2014 06:24:18 PM

Vegemite · Veteran Member

oldtrack123 wrote:

HI Chris
....
Do not even consider the orange outlet boxs such as Arlec ,Clipsal etc OR sold at your local hardware store
THOSE ARE NOT APPROVED FOR USE WITH TRANSPORTABLE STRUCTURES
.....
PeterQ

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 11th of January 2014 06:24:18 PM

Do you mean these?

I was considering getting one or even the 10A for use in a tent.

If these are not approved where would I get one that is?

KFT · Guru

I would have thought that the one you are looking as well as this one- www.bunnings.com.au/stanley-15a-rcd-mcb-worksite-protected-power-hub-with-usb-hub_p4420237

would be approved for the use you propose as they have the appropriate IP rating (IP44) the same as the power inlet and outlets on caravans and motorhomes.

frank

Big Gorilla · Guru

This subject has been around several times before. Check out the link below. It might answer some of the questions raised:

http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t54950057/extensionlead/

oldtrack123 · Guru

Vegemite wrote:
Do you mean these?
I was considering getting one or even the 10A for use in a tent.
If these are not approved where would I get one that is?

HI Vegmiite

YES, They are not approved for use with transportable structures

THAT includes tents

Several reasons that they do not comply with requirements of the Standards

Actually as far as I am aware ,an "APPROVED" is not available mass produced

IT would require a licensed electrician to make one up specially for you BUT HE WOULD NEED TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS REQUIRED and it would cost $$$

Having said the above I KNOW they are widely used for THAT purpose!

PeterD · Guru

KFT wrote:
I would have thought that the one you are looking as well as this one- www.bunnings.com.au/stanley-15a-rcd-mcb-worksite-protected-power-hub-with-usb-hub_p4420237

would be approved for the use you propose as they have the appropriate IP rating (IP44) the same as the power inlet and outlets on caravans and motorhomes.

Not good enough. The Ampfibian had to be IP55 to pass for caravan use.

Vanderee · Senior Member

Thanks for the advice Peter looks like I will ditch the orange box for a better supply.

What do you suggest ?? Thanks mate.

Vanderee · Senior Member

Happy New Year Chris.

I envy you, many years ago we went out on a tuna boat in Victor Harbor hauling in tuna,

great town best fishing we ever had, and the town folk were great as well.

Good luck with your new circuit breaker. Happy travels.

Tim thetruckie · Senior Member

What size is the cable in your lead ? London to a brick it is 1.5mm2

I did use that sized cable for my onsite van till I felt the cable near the mushroom 1 day and it was fairly warm to touch .

I went to a electrical wholesaler and bought 60m of 2.5mm2 cable and plugs to fit and had made up 2x 20m 2x10m leads .

PeterD · Guru

Tim thetruckie wrote:
What size is the cable in your lead ? London to a brick it is 1.5mm2

I did use that sized cable for my onsite van till I felt the cable near the mushroom 1 day and it was fairly warm to touch .

Was the cord warm at the van input? Was the cord warm further away from the power head? How far from the head did you trace it for heat?

If you were not overloading the cable I would suspect the heat was coming from a bad plug fit or loose connection in the plug or socket. The heat will travel a fair way down the cable at times.

Wit the number of heavy cables you constructed, you are not intending to join leads are you. The rules state the cord will be in one continuous length when used to connect portable or mobile residences to the power.

JayDee · Guru

When it comes to electrical work, I believe that if you can not see it or smell it... and you certainly cannot try to taste or fell it, then it's time to ring the Sparkey. Better he fix it than you get zapped.
Jay&Dee

Tim thetruckie · Senior Member

PeterD wrote:
Tim thetruckie wrote:
What size is the cable in your lead ? London to a brick it is 1.5mm2

I did use that sized cable for my onsite van till I felt the cable near the mushroom 1 day and it was fairly warm to touch .
Was the cord warm at the van input? Was the cord warm further away from the power head? How far from the head did you trace it for heat?
If you were not overloading the cable I would suspect the heat was coming from a bad plug fit or loose connection in the plug or socket. The heat will travel a fair way down the cable at times.
Wit the number of heavy cables you constructed, you are not intending to join leads are you. The rules state the cord will be in one continuous length when used to connect portable or mobile residences to the power.

Peter I didnt bother checking the rest of the lead .

No i dont plan on joining leads . 1 20m is for the onsite van and the other 3 are for my touring van as it has 2 inlets , I carry 2c10m 2.5mm and 1 x 20m 2.5 , 1x20m 1.5mm

KFT · Guru

PeterD wrote:
KFT wrote:
I would have thought that the one you are looking as well as this one- www.bunnings.com.au/stanley-15a-rcd-mcb-worksite-protected-power-hub-with-usb-hub_p4420237

would be approved for the use you propose as they have the appropriate IP rating (IP44) the same as the power inlet and outlets on caravans and motorhomes.
Not good enough. The Ampfibian had to be IP55 to pass for caravan use.

G'day Peter, was just reading about the Universal RCD/RVD and apparently it only needs to be IP44 for approval. I would think the Amphibian had to be IP55 because it lays flat on the ground. Also the items I mentioned are approved for use on construction sites and have the appropriate class H rating for that use. I am at a loss as to why you say they would not meet spec.

frank

PeterD · Guru

KFT wrote:
G'day Peter, was just reading about the Universal RCD/RVD and apparently it only needs to be IP44 for approval.
frank

Frank, the Universal RCD/RVD was approved under a specific standard for specific purposes. Supplying power to portable dwellings is not one of those purposes. AS/NZS 3001 specifically states that devices approved under that standard are not to be used to supply portable dwellings. Search back through the forum and you will find where Oldtrack has spelt out the details several times.

SnowT · Guru

If you need to replace your leads for your van. why not get an electrician to make one up for you..

You should be able to get one that does the job you need..

Juergen..

Also The Electrical wholesalers should have the inline ELCB your after.. But If it will work in a van situation I will not say.. It depends on the source of the power..
- Also another issue.. Is the lead once it Plugged into the van Supported in anyway or is it free hanging..?

If it's Free hanging then there is a good chance that no mater what you do the problem will keep on occurring..

ShortNorth · Senior Member

KFT wrote:
PeterD wrote:
KFT wrote:
I would have thought that the one you are looking as well as this one- www.bunnings.com.au/stanley-15a-rcd-mcb-worksite-protected-power-hub-with-usb-hub_p4420237

would be approved for the use you propose as they have the appropriate IP rating (IP44) the same as the power inlet and outlets on caravans and motorhomes.
Not good enough. The Ampfibian had to be IP55 to pass for caravan use.
G'day Peter, was just reading about the Universal RCD/RVD and apparently it only needs to be IP44 for approval. I would think the Amphibian had to be IP55 because it lays flat on the ground. Also the items I mentioned are approved for use on construction sites and have the appropriate class H rating for that use. I am at a loss as to why you say they would not meet spec.
frank

We've been going around in circles over this problem for quite some time.

Just a few comments from a retired electrical consulting engineer and former sparky.

1. IP44 is not enough for approval for caravan use - consider this - the 15A plugs on the caravan leads that are plugged into the 'orange box' do not have adequate restraint to stop the plug from partially pulling out - when this occurs you have a very nice gap for water to trickle down straight onto the now semi-exposed active and neutral pins - result: 'bang'. Secondly, there is absolutely no mechanical restraint to stop the plug connection from pulling out partway or fully in the event of an accident - i.e. someone walking past and tripping over the lead.

The IP44 inlets and outlets on the side of the van are not designed to mechanically restrain the plugged in cables, nor are they required to be as high as IP55, as the 'cover flap' when opened provides sufficient 'umbrella' protection from direct water ingress from most directions, and water should not get into these sockets except under extreme circumstances, i.e. a top category cyclonic storm, and IP44 is not intended to accommodate that level of extreme.

2. If you look closely at an Amp-Fibian - firstly, the caravan lead that plugs into the Amp-fibian is mechanically trapped inside a fully weatherproof clip-shut housing - this has rubber pressure seals all around the perimeter and around the cable as it enters the plug compartment - hence it is protected from any water getting to the pins on the 15A plugtop. The Amp-Fibian is fully IP55 approved - note also it has a 'hanging hook' so that it can be suspended from the power pillar (or other suitable position) as an alternative to laying flat on the ground.

3. The second thing that gets missed by all is that with the 'orange boxes' there is nothing to stop the 15A plug being pulled out - with the Amp-Fibian note that there is a very effective serrated plastic 'gripper' that solidly anchors the caravan cable into the Amp-Fibian and and, except under extreme abuse, this prevents the caravan lead from being pulled out of the device with the attendant dangers of potential exposed pins and /or broken cables.

The way the Amp-Fibian is designed, it literally 'becomes a continuation of the caravan cable', the mechanical restraint and waterproofing, in conjunction with the over-load protection and residual current protection far surpass the tenuous unprotected plug connection into an 'orange box'.

All of the 'orange boxes' do not have this mechanical restraint, or IP55 rating, and that is why they are NOT approved for use with caravans.

The 'orange boxes' are ONLY designed to be used by tradies in an indoor construction site environment.

Also avoid at all costs having an electrician 'make up a lead' - they do not know all the ramifications of the Australian Standards that the Amp-Fibian is manufactured under, and the resulting lead will still be illegal to use for connecting a caravan to a 10A GPO. As a former electrical consulting engineer, I dealt with, and applied, a whole raft of Australian Standards every day of my working life for over 30 years.

The only approved device to connect a 15A caravan lead to an existing 10A GPO is the Amp-fibian - full stop !

Ignore the Australian Standards at your own risk.

Regards, Brian