Holden !!!!!!

Sheba · Guru

Holden !!!!!!

leevin · Senior Member

I agree Sheba.
What a mob of pompous prigs.
At least Ford is going gracefully.

Vic41 · Guru

Until they finally close down here in Oz, I would be reluctant to buy a Holden now made in Oz, how could the workers have their hearts in putting out a quality product, also they may deliberately do a shonky job as pay back for what has happened to them.

And the parts supply chain will not be as good I would imagine having to come from overseas when it closes down.

Out of principle for the shafting of the Ozzie workers and suppliers I would not buy one in future if at all.

dorian · Guru

The biggest kick in the guts came from Abbott when he said that long standing Holden employees would now be "liberated" to find new jobs.

I always wondered how a mob of conservatives could call themselves liberal, but now Abbott has cleared up the apparent doublethink. The Liberal Party is the party that "liberates" workers from their jobs.

peterblack · Senior Member

I totally agree with wat dorian has to say. were are we heading. I have sons and grand kids. I can only say. wake up Australia.

bill12 · Guru

Blame globalization as well. If the big manufacturers can build something cheaper overseas, they will,even if they are given 100s of millions of dollars in subsidies.Its the way of the world these days. The next holden will be a buick, made in china! We have priced ourselves out of the market.I like Abbot sayingthat he has"liberalised "the job outlook of the car industry workers.Typical! Bill

dorian · Guru

My father bought a new "Holden", aka Daewoo, only a few months ago. Unfortunately he's become too ill to drive it, so the latest news is a double whammy. He and Mum still have their old Toyota, though.

BTW, globalisation is not responsible for the "liberalisation" of the public service in NSW and QLD. That's home grown politics, not market forces. That said, I'm not shedding a tear for our lazy, bloated bureaucracies.

ISTM that eventually we'll have no manufacturing in this country. We'll just be digging holes in the ground, sending the minerals and ore to China, importing the manufactured goods, and then digging more holes in the ground to bury the cr*p.

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 24th of December 2013 07:49:43 AM

excited-newbies · Veteran Member

hi

I am just as pissed excuse the French the low lifes I for one will defenently wont be buying a holden after or before they take their manufacturing off shore. As for the ad there should be some protest against it yes I am very angry they got heaps of money from the tax payers in the past and now they can't get anymore stuff Australia. I bet the top executives have still got their job and big pay and big house My heart goes out to the people and their family that actually worked their there.

excited newbie

dorian · Guru

What we need more than a globalisation of manufacturing is a globalisation of working conditions, safety standards, social conditions, political freedoms, etc. Only then will we be on a level playing field. Otherwise how can we compete against a country that kills 10,000 miners every year?

And what's the point of working smarter when the smart thing to do is to pay cheap labour to do the work for you? That said, Germany has a strong manufacturing sector AND a well paid workforce. How do THEY do it?

GaryKelly · Guru

Holden is trying to reassure consumers that their cars will be built to the same standards as those pior to their decision to quit manufacturing in Oz. Holden is very aware of sentiments such as those expressed on this thread. I think Holden made a very silly business decision by giving workers 4 years notice. Now everyone has the opportunity to turn their attention to other potential careers and lose interest in Holden. Holden could have told everyone they were staying in Oz so that employees continued to give their best to the company and stayed loyal. Customers would also see no reason not to buy a Commodore. Then, shortly before closing down manufacturing, Holden could have said, "Well, that's it. We're outta here. Blame the boss in Detroit." Had they left the decision to the last minute, all this bad feeling could have been avoided until it didn't matter any more.

I have no personal interest in or connection to Holden. Just analyzing various scenarios here. I also have no interest in arguing. To argue, one needs a point of view, and I don't have one.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

I agree with the sentiment expressed regarding Straya's dismal future regarding manufacturing industry.

However, if we are completely honest, how many of the members of this forum, as an example, actually own and drive a vehicle manufactured in Straya.

Despite all the other valid reasons for Holden, and Ford and probably Toyota, ceasing manufacture here, the production volume needed to 'break even' at least, whether domestic consumption or export, is just not there.

It's a bit like people complaining when their country rail service is ceased due to lack of patronage. If they had used it instead of using their cars the service would have remained.

Cheers - John

leevin · Senior Member

Holden were demanding that the Australian government give them a handout. Where is the handout from their big-time US of A government?
The Australian government called their bluff, and told them that we will not be dictated to by the unions.
This is part of the massive money wasting of the previous autocratic/dictatorial/union-centric Australian government, you know, the government that we finally kicked out.
Australia is buggered, we can't compete with the wages paid overseas. We (unions), just keep demanding more.
And when the younger generation gets such fantastic wages, they spend more, then want more and go deeper into debt.
It is sad but the banks throw money at them, and when it hits the fan, only the banks can win.
Sorry, my rant for the year (2014 I think), but I am as cranky as you.
Have a great Christmas & a safe New Year.

03_troopy · Guru

about 2 more posts I reckon.

Cloak · Guru

I'm in the market for a small runabout that was going to be another Focus, then a Barina, now I'm looking at a Chery.

Bryan · Guru

Vic41 wrote:
Until they finally close down here in Oz, I would be reluctant to buy a Holden now made in Oz, how could the workers have their hearts in putting out a quality product, also they may deliberately do a shonky job as pay back for what has happened to them.
And the parts supply chain will not be as good I would imagine having to come from overseas when it closes down.
Out of principle for the shafting of the Ozzie workers and suppliers I would not buy one in future if at all.

I agree with you Vic. Same thing happened to Leyland. Employee frustration lead to industrial sabotage and an even earlier demise.

I too blame the government, not only Abbott but the previous few as well, the rot started very long ago and throwing money at a failing business is only a short term fix because we'll be throwing bigger and bigger money as the years go on, plus others business will climb on the bandwagon instead of finding alternative ways to become competitive and entice customers. The market should have some form of protection against cheap imports, even if locally build products are more expensive. The move by the new govt to have armoured BMW instead of locally built products is part of the apathy and finally the major blame is US, the buying public, for not supporting local manufacturers. My wife drives Holden, I'm guilty, I drive a Jeep and at the time of purchase I was thinking of my back pocket and not what would help my fellow Australians.

During the past year, Kathy and have gone to lengths to ensure our daily shopping support firstly WA suppliers then Australian suppliers, we even shop at IGA instead of Coles and Woolworths. We may be shooting ourselves in the foot because we are very much in the minority but our conscience sleeps better.

The above is my personal point of view and is put forward as part of the discussion, not to credit or discredit the opinion of others.

dorian · Guru

The only car I ever had that wasn't locally built was an old second-hand Mercedes. For several years I had a business which was a net exporter, so I reckon my personal balance of trade is in the black.

Wombat 280 · Guru

leevin wrote:
Holden were demanding that the Australian government give them a handout. Where is the handout from their big-time US of A government?
The Australian government called their bluff, and told them that we will not be dictated to by the unions.
This is part of the massive money wasting of the previous autocratic/dictatorial/union-centric Australian government, you know, the government that we finally kicked out.
Australia is buggered, we can't compete with the wages paid overseas. We (unions), just keep demanding more.
And when the younger generation gets such fantastic wages, they spend more, then want more and go deeper into debt.
It is sad but the banks throw money at them, and when it hits the fan, only the banks can win.
Sorry, my rant for the year (2014 I think), but I am as cranky as you.
Have a great Christmas & a safe New Year.

I'm with you, Holden has lost the market a long time back and became a outreach assemble plant nothing was manufactured soley from Aust resources and when someone who puts screws onto an air driver can claim to be a skilled worker on $70 grand a year bets me. The skill factor ends at the design stage and that's where we need to be at the sharp end otherwise we may as well join the spiral into third world . Think of all the industries we have lost and no bail out was on hand, so why now

SnowT · Guru

A Good way to force their Hand..

Bring Back the Tariffs, if you don't make car's in Australia you get penalized..
:ie - You must make at least 1 - 2 models of car in Aust..

If the car company's want to make money then Start at the Top and scrap off the crud.. get rid of all that dead weight..

I bet the car's that get brought into Australia are not going to sell for cheaper than what we already Pay.

They will just bring in the import's and charge us just as much..

Ford are think'n of bringing in the Mustang to OZ.. The Question is at what price..?

Over there[US] you can buy the Mustang GT Premium with a good kit for $36-38k
What is the cost going to be here..?
Going on $Aus to US$ of say 88.0

The Price if we bought one over there at the moment is about $43.2K

Want to bet that the Mustang goes on sale here for well over $50-60k

Juergen

Psst don't even get me talk'n about Hospital's..
there are way's to make them more effective.. and you have to start at the top..

Vic41 · Guru

This is an email doing the rounds at present, not sure if there is any truth in it or maybe a red herring to justify GMH's actions, no author was shown, so for what it's worth here it is;

ONLY $150 million a year will save Holden? Rubbish. The Holden Enterprise Agreement is the document that has utterly sunk Holden's prospects. It defies belief that someone in the company isn't being held to account for it.

Holden's management masks a union culture beyond most people's comprehension. Employment costs spiralled way beyond community standards long ago. Neither "pay freezes" nor more money will save Holden, but getting the Fair Work Commission to dissolve the agreement and put all workers on the award wage might be a start.

In 1991, the pre-enterprise bargaining award wage of a Holden entry level process worker was $462.80 a week. In 1992, Holden began enterprise bargaining and now a worker at that same classification level has a base rate of $1194.50 a week, a 158 per cent increase, or a compound increase of 4.4 per cent year on year for 22 years. Right now, base wage rates for process workers in the Holden enterprise agreement are in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range and in recent times, "hardship payments" of $3750 were given to each worker.

The modern award for such workers mandates base rates in the $37,000 to $42,000 range. This means that before we add any of the shift penalties, loadings, 26 allowances and the added cost of productivity restrictions, Holden begins each working day paying its workforce almost double what it should. After you add in the other employment costs, I estimate Holden's workforce costs it somewhere close to triple the amount it should.

Many people who work at Holden don't actually work for Holden; they work for the union. Occupational health and safety people are given 10 days' paid time off a year to be trained by the union. Most companies do not allow unions to train their OH&S people because the knowledge is used to control the workplace to the benefit of the union.

Union delegates are also allowed up to 10 paid days a year for union training in how to be effective union delegates and two of these delegates are entitled to an extra Holden sponsorship of one paid month off to "further their industrial and/or leadership development".

Holden's rules on hiring casuals are shocking and unheard of in today's market. The agreement forbids Holden from hiring casuals except when a "short-term increase in workload, or other unusual circumstances occurs". If this situation arises Holden has to "consult and reach agreement" with the union. Further, "Engagement of the agreed number of casual personnel will be for the agreed specified tasks and the agreed specified periods." If any of this changes, Holden must get union agreement again. After three months of continuous full-time work a casual must be made permanent. It is impossible to run a business like this.

An ex-employee from Adelaide, on condition of anonymity, consented to an interview yesterday. He described the workforce as "over-managed", with one team leader for every six workers on the production line, when one for every 25 workers would suffice.

He said "some of us workers felt it wasn't necessary to get paid what we were getting paid to do the jobs we were doing", adding that their work is probably worth about "20 bucks an hour". A few years back, mates took redundancy packages in the order of "$280k plus". Workers are "like sheep" that blindly follow the union leadership. At induction, new workers are ushered into one-on-one meetings with the union rep who heavies them into joining. "It is made clear that if you don't join the union you will be sacked," he said. Union representatives "don't actually do any work for Holden", but rather make themselves full-time enforcers of union control.

He says workers are drug tested before hiring, but "only have to stay off it for a few weeks, get in the door and then you'll be right". Workers caught taking drugs or being drug-affected at work are allegedly put on a fully paid rehabilitation program, with special paid time off of about four weeks duration, before being let back into the workforce.

Australian workplaces have a zero tolerance for drug use, with instant dismissal the remedy, but at Holden "the union won't let the company sack" any workers caught dealing, taking or being on drugs. "If they did a random drug test tomorrow they'd probably have to sack 40 per cent of the workforce," he adds.

If the Holden scenario were playing out in a privately owned business, proper cost-cutting strategies would be used. If you have the will and can hire the skill, there are many ways to cut labour costs. The workers can be given a couple of years notice of significant wage drops and can receive lump sum payouts of entitlements to help bring down family debt.

Of course, these strategies are only ever used by business people who have no one else to bail them out. It seems Holden would rather leave the country than dissolve its enterprise agreement. The union thinks members are better off jobless than on award wages. Holden's fate seems sealed.

If Holden does leave, workers will receive the most generous redundancy benefits around. Holden says leaving will cost $600m. Most of this will go to staff payouts. The fellow interviewed agrees with my calculation: the average production-line worker will walk away with a redundancy package of between $300k-500k.

Santa · Guru

People seem to forget that GM have been employing tens of thousands of Australians since the mid 1920's, they also conveniently forget that the Parent company GM in the US collapsed in 2009, due to bankruptcy.

Almost 90 years as one of the largest employers in Aust, now the company has hit hard times we don't hear any thanks for the good years, what we get is whinging and whining about what an ungrateful mob of b*stards they are.

We as a nation have learned nothing in the past 100 years other than how to grind companies into the dust with constant demands for higher wages, longer leave, more entitlements and better conditions, better get used to this sort of thing, looks like Toyota will go as well.

Australian unions have, collectively, over the years most certainly achieved a Pyrrhic victory

http://www.news.com.au/national/judgment-a-pyrrhic-victory-for-car-workers/story-e6frfkp9-1226789061748

All good things come to an end, however life will go on.

-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 24th of December 2013 02:54:49 PM

-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 24th of December 2013 03:19:03 PM

Ontos45 · Guru

I wonder how many Holdens are in the workers and Union Officials car parks at the Holden plants?

GaryKelly · Guru

The unions didn't do the former British motor industry too many favors either.

Santa · Guru

GaryKelly wrote:
The unions didn't do the former British motor industry too many favors either.

Good job you used the past tense Gary.

The unions certainly had a place after the industrial revolution however by the 1970's they had well and truly reached their use by date.

peterblack · Senior Member

there is nothing wrong with unions
look at the workers in asia
I think we need to look back a bit
if gm allowed the workers to earn that amount of pay
why is everyone whinging about unions
gm just want to get out of Australia
so the bosses can have a few million ##@!%^ $s pay rise
and 2/3 mote private juts to fly in
how much do u think the aussie pay should be
a friend works as a cleaner in peoples homes
they always telling of pay rise bonus etc
she asked for a couple $ rise
u would have thought the house fell in she said
but after 55/60 no one will employ u

merry xmas all. enjoy

leevin · Senior Member

Vic41,
That piece on Holden & Unions is from the Australian newspaper December 10th by Grace Collier.

Bryan · Guru

GaryKelly wrote:
The unions didn't do the former British motor industry too many favors either.

I remember the time when British cars were considered one of the best on the road. Now there is virtually no British motor industry. At least British owned. Icons like Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Lotus etc, all struggling under foreign ownership. Same with BSA and Triumph motorbikes and other major industries.

Cloak · Guru

The automotive segment will still be a massive employer even with 100% imports.

The big loser will be IP.

Bryan · Guru

Cloak wrote:
The automotive segment will still be a massive employer even with 100% imports.

The big loser will be IP.

It depends if they come in CKD or fully built up. Quite a while ago, maybe 20 years or so, Hyundai tried to evade the fully built up tax in South Africa by bringing in cars without wheels. These were fitted locally and were considered local assembly. Did nothing for employment while it lasted for a couple of years until legislation was changed to properly define local assembly.

OE suppliers make up a large portion of motor industry employment and 100 % import, whether or not they are assembled here ,will have a huge negative impact on that industry unless the govt takes the opportunity to legislate a workable scenario where local assembly is protected and to throw in a percent of local content to keep the OE suppliers working.

Legendts · Senior Member

leevin wrote:
Holden were demanding that the Australian government give them a handout. Where is the handout from their big-time US of A government?
The Australian government called their bluff, and told them that we will not be dictated to by the unions.
This is part of the massive money wasting of the previous autocratic/dictatorial/union-centric Australian government, you know, the government that we finally kicked out.
Australia is buggered, we can't compete with the wages paid overseas. We (unions), just keep demanding more.
And when the younger generation gets such fantastic wages, they spend more, then want more and go deeper into debt.
It is sad but the banks throw money at them, and when it hits the fan, only the banks can win.
Sorry, my rant for the year (2014 I think), but I am as cranky as you.
Have a great Christmas & a safe New Year.

Right on the money, also Gary's too.

Don't feel too bad for the Holden workers as most will walk away debt free with their redundancy payouts. I have been in three jobs that closed their doors and in only one did I get a months notice and a redundancy. Think of the other manufacturing industries that have folded over the last several years, I bet their redundancy packages were very poor comparatively but did they get any Govt help to retrain? NO, so why should Holden workers be any different. I don't remember all this sympathy and money for the Ford workers, or any of the others, oh that's right the union (Labor) was the govt eh!

-- Edited by Legendts on Wednesday 25th of December 2013 01:54:56 PM

SnowT · Guru

I feel a Lot more sorry for the other companies that supply the car industry.. What are they saying about 50,000 or so going out of work...

Shame on Holden.. and I bet that the worker's from the supply companies Get NOTHING.. No support, No redundancy...

Juergen

Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.

Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.