Folding solar panels

Poppy sore eye · Senior Member

Folding solar panels

justcruisin01 · Guru

Sounds like you do need the second panel. I would keep the two panels as seperate units,not wired together that way IF you only need one then thats all you have to get out.

Providing that you have 6mm wire from your existing anderson to the battery I would fit another anderson beside/ontop of existing plug & wire it into the existing system, either splice the wires together or fit them into the terminals of the existing plug , thats if they have been soldered & not crimped (much neater). If they have been crimped it's very difficult to uncrimp enough to fit the second wire into the terminals.

JC.

PeterInSa · Guru

Paul,
Even with a 2nd Sola panel you could well have problems.

My thinking is along the lines of:
How well is your 100amp Deep Cycle Battery? is it a deep Cycle? to me if its 4 or more years old its not at its peak, I understand that you can buy a lot bigger batteries than 100amp, to fit in approx the same size battery case.

Your load, are you running all LED lights? is your TV, Vast box etc running on 12v or are you using inverters to run on 240vac which takes up more power.

When you use inverters are they the smallest for the job, safety wise. eg a 150watt square wave will drive MY laptop or shaver no problems ( BUT not necessarily yours), so will a 1000w inverter but with a lot more current drain on the battery.

Are you running a 3 way frig, running on LPG takes a lot less power( Led light only to show your on LPG) than a 12volt compressor frig.

All the load for our van goes thru our Sola Controller with a low voltage cutout at 11v from memory, but maybe 11.5v. If your load (lights/TV etc etc) does NOT go thru your controller and most likey it will not because of the foldeing panels, if the battery voltage goes below 10 volts for any length of time I understand that will shorten the efficiency and life of the Deep cycle batteries. This may already have happened.

Peter

-- Edited by PeterInSa on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 02:37:30 PM

oldbobsbus · Guru

As I see it if you do what Jim said and put a second Anderson plug there... you are making a move in the right direction..

If you still have problems then you need to look a little further..
But your second panel will always help to charge your battery..

SnowT · Guru

Hiya Paul..

Do a Few thing's as well,
- make sure you move the panel's around so you chase the Sun[You want the sun to hit the panels all the time.]
- Try Putting a Reflective/white material on the Ground in front of the Panel..[Should help to bounce more Light into the Panel - More Light = More power] << Read this in these Forum's, Not my Idea.>>

Definitely make sure that you have correct size cables from the Anderson Plug to the Battery..

Juergen

Poppy sore eye · Senior Member

Thanks JC that sounds like the simple solution I was hoping for.

Hi Peter, the battery is brand new I felt that old battery was part of the problem so i have replaced it today, yes you can get bigger but I can't afford them, not led lights as yet that's hopefully the next upgrade any suggestions on sourcing them would be great. TV, 2 way fridge, freezer, water pump house radio, iPad and phone charger all run of 12 v,, no inverters. I don't Understand your comment about e solar controller, I think there is a charge controller for when we are driving or connected to 240 volt but the solar goes straight to the battery. As soon as the voltage meter next to my control switched goes To about 11.5 everything cuts out anyway so I cant completely flatten the battery.

thanks old bob

hi Juergan, yes I will try the reflective material, the cables fron the Anderson plug are 6mm so should be ok

thanks again all

PeterInSa · Guru

Re [As soon as the voltage meter next to my control switched goes To about 11.5 everything cuts out anyway so I cant completely flatten the battery.} This may well be a low voltage cut out. Our Sola Controller does the low voltage cutout.

With a 2 way Frig ( 12v and 240vac) definitely another 170watt panel is the way to go. I personally would look at putting sola on the roof of your mh if you have the roof space. With some research, including looking at some installations, talking to DIY's is not that hard to do. Once installed its nearly set and forget.

Re Suppliers I have purchased LEDs from Alibaba and Deal Extreme ( DX) as per below, Not necessarily this LED to replace Haligon lamps. a $3 unit from DX could set you back up to $20 in OZ. Generally I prefer Cool white like light from a Fluro, but the Warm white is to me definitely better for mood lighting. I use a Debit card to pay via Paypal.

dx.com/p/g4-2-2w-48-60-lumen-12-x-5050-smd-led-car-warm-white-light-bulb-12v-58298

Peter

-- Edited by PeterInSa on Tuesday 17th of December 2013 08:33:52 PM

beiffe · Guru

Not an expert but a few things I would suggest.

1. As two MPPT controllers apparently don't like to talk together I would look at removing one controller and fitting it close to the battery. Eg between the battery and the wire to the plug. I use a Plasmatronic so it is only hearsay but the experts will advise. This option will deliver the full power of the panels to the controller and there fore the voltage drop will only be between the controller and the batteries not over the length of your cables. Getting a better controller would also be a better option still.

2. I would isolate the the other controllers but just removing the wires and joining outside. Dont forget to seal from moisture.

3. If the cables are the ones that came with the panels I would suggest you look at purchasing heavier wires from Ebay. I use 6 B&S but then some consider it overkill but that is up to you to decide.

4. Can you get another battery somewhere else close to the original one to help with the load.

The suggestion to change to lLED lights is a good one. Buy a 5 mtr strip from Ebay and then cut to length to fit your fittings. Just cut on the scissor sign and then solder wires to the supplied points. For 24v just join two lengths to convert. I needed to leave the bus room light switch on because of the complexity of the internal wiring so I put a switch on each cover so I can now control each light separately. One even is two way so I have a bright and dull in the bed area.

Sometimes when existing on pure solar you have to make allowances depending on the weather. If overcast the you might have to restrict some things and then when in good sun you can then use the power available. I have lots of power but I still consider the power expected for the next few days.

I would not take a wet cell battery down bellow 12v as if you do, you have taken a fair percentage of usable life from that battery. Keep above 12.2 will give a longer life than getting below. Remember a wet cells life if looked after is usually about 4 years but many say they are lucky to get two years. A lot of this is governed by the level that they drag the batteries down to. The lower you take them the shorter the life, plus the lower the voltage the more actual power you use for the same appliance. It is the same as the higher the load on a wet cell battery the less power you will get from that battery before it is flat.

Hope that is not too complex as there are other options that I will not go into.

Regards
Brian

brian · Guru

beiffe wrote:
Not an expert but a few things I would suggest.

1. As two MPPT controllers apparently don't like to talk together I would look at removing one controller and fitting it close to the battery. Eg between the battery and the wire to the plug. I use a Plasmatronic so it is only hearsay but the experts will advise. This option will deliver the full power of the panels to the controller and there fore the voltage drop will only be between the controller and the batteries not over the length of your cables. Getting a better controller would also be a better option still.

Just a little bit of expansion on the above point if I may.

NO intelligent/staged type chargers or controllers work well together, they are just not that intelligent.

This holds true for an intelligent charger attempting to work in concert with another similar unit, an alternator, or even an older type transformer/diode charger.

The problem arises from the fact that most of these chargers must stop periodically to measure the terminal voltage of the battery that is being charged.

This is how they ascertain the level of charge that the battery has attained, and how they decide whether to continue in boost or to go to the next stage.

Some even connect a small dummy load to reduce surface charge and see what depression the battery suffers over a short set test period.

Others rely on a time based algorithm, where they simply stay on boost for a set time and then go to the next stage.

Whichever method they use, having another source of voltage across the battery can seriously disrupt their ability to assess the true state of charge of the battery during their constant current boost mode.

Then, when in absorb mode, these chargers maintain a constant voltage until the charge current falls to a set level, having another connected charge source will disrupt the charger's ability to register this current accurately, again resulting in poor charging.

This can result in the battery being undercharged or very slow to charge in the case of the stop to test chargers, or seriously overcharged in the case of the time based ones.

Note that I use the term "intelligent charger" rather than "smart charger". Although the term "smart charger" is often used to generally describe intelligent chargers, it really relates to a charger that is used to charge "smart batteries". A "smart battery" is one that has electronic circuitry included in the package that communicates with the charger as to its state of charge - phone, power tool and camera batteries are good examples, and they always have more than 2 terminals.

The word "smart" in the term "smart battery charger" is a bit of a trap. Is it a "smart" battery charger, or a charger for "smart" batteries?

Hope this helps

Ontos45 · Guru

justcruisin01 wrote:
Sounds like you do need the second panel. I would keep the two panels as seperate units,not wired together that way IF you only need one then thats all you have to get out.
Providing that you have 6mm wire from your existing anderson to the battery I would fit another anderson beside/ontop of existing plug & wire it into the existing system, either splice the wires together or fit them into the terminals of the existing plug , thats if they have been soldered & not crimped (much neater). If they have been crimped it's very difficult to uncrimp enough to fit the second wire into the terminals.
JC.
Just an aside:

Had 50Amp Anderson Plugs fitted to our van by a big installer in Strathpine Qld. After driving over a corrugated road the Earth wire (thank goodness not the Positive) vibrated out of the Anderson Plug fitted to our 4x4. When the auto electrician in Charleville saw it, he said the cabling was larger guage than the connectors on the 50Amp plug and they'd been twisted into the connectors and then had only been crimped, which was Ok for tar not rough roads. He fitted 75Amp plugs that fitted the cable better and then soldered the connectors. No problems since.

moblet · Senior Member

Here's a schematic of how I would do your setup. It's basically what mine already is:

--- Existing panels
Battery --- Controller --- Plug --- Y or T adapter plug
--- New panels

This would involve removing the controller from the back of your panels and mounting it as close as possible to the battery, and having appropriate plugs fitted to the panel leads. As Brian explained, you'll have to run all your panels through a single controller, and it's going to be a lot easier and more robust to manage that if you move the controller to the battery rather than try to connect two folding panels together. When I bought my folding panels the controller was mounted behind the panels, but I recently moved it to the battery for its own protection, to make the wiring more robust, and to have flexibility in what panels I connect. My battery voltages have been higher since I moved the controller.

With this arrangement you could put just a single panel set out on sunny days, or both sets when conditions aren't so good. I too have two independent portable panels and only get them both out when I have to. I have short leads on the panels terminating in MC4 connectors, and MC4-Anderson leads from there to the Anderson plug on my battery. I also have a 10m Anderson-Anderson extension cable that I use when the sunshine is otherwise out of reach.

I would tell the family not to bother with gifting a controller, or I'd keep it as a spare presuming it can handle the load of both sets of panels.

Re your battery capacity, if you can afford it you can fit more effective battery capacity in a limited space by upgrading to LiFePO4 batteries, as they can be discharged more fully. They cost a bomb but should last longer and are significantly lighter. Their lighter weight and reduced hazard risk may also open up possibilities to mount them elsewhere in your rig to increase your overall capacity.

justcruisin01 · Guru

Ontos45 wrote:
justcruisin01 wrote:
Sounds like you do need the second panel. I would keep the two panels as seperate units,not wired together that way IF you only need one then thats all you have to get out.
Providing that you have 6mm wire from your existing anderson to the battery I would fit another anderson beside/ontop of existing plug & wire it into the existing system, either splice the wires together or fit them into the terminals of the existing plug , thats if they have been soldered & not crimped (much neater). If they have been crimped it's very difficult to uncrimp enough to fit the second wire into the terminals.
JC.
Just an aside:
Had 50Amp Anderson Plugs fitted to our van by a big installer in Strathpine Qld. After driving over a corrugated road the Earth wire (thank goodness not the Positive) vibrated out of the Anderson Plug fitted to our 4x4. When the auto electrician in Charleville saw it, he said the cabling was larger guage than the connectors on the 50Amp plug and they'd been twisted into the connectors and then had only been crimped, which was Ok for tar not rough roads. He fitted 75Amp plugs that fitted the cable better and then soldered the connectors. No problems since.

EXACTLY; todays sparkies dont know what a soldering iron is & have little knowledge of what the outback is like on vehicles & equipment.

Even when using the smaller crimp terminals I never crimp them; they can be soldered with out melting the plastic insulating colar.I solder everything & this way the wire can be removed & terminal reused if you have to.

JC.

Poppy sore eye · Senior Member

Ok guys, I thought it was sorted, does all this extra stuff mean that JC,s simple first solution won't work????

i am going to be at greens next week is there going to be anyone there who can fix this for me!!! Please

jules47 · The Happy Helper

Don't worry Poppy sore eye - some great guys here to help you.

The dog lady · Guru

Poppy sore eye wrote:
Thanks JC that sounds like the simple solution I was hoping for.
Hi Peter, the battery is brand new I felt that old battery was part of the problem so i have replaced it today, yes you can get bigger but I can't afford them, not led lights as yet that's hopefully the next upgrade any suggestions on sourcing them would be great. TV, 2 way fridge, freezer, water pump house radio, iPad and phone charger all run of 12 v,, no inverters. I don't Understand your comment about e solar controller, I think there is a charge controller for when we are driving or connected to 240 volt but the solar goes straight to the battery. As soon as the voltage meter next to my control switched goes To about 11.5 everything cuts out anyway so I cant completely flatten the battery.
thanks old bob
hi Juergan, yes I will try the reflective material, the cables fron the Anderson plug are 6mm so should be ok
thanks again all

Re the LED lights, my son replaced all the globes in the vehicle's internal original lights with LEDs, and since then I can simply use all the lights running off the VEHICLE battery and save the house battery for fridge, computers etc. Even if I haven't run the vehicle for a week this seems to have no effect on the starting power of the vehicle battery and meant there was no rewiring to be done either.

beiffe · Guru

Moblett wrote
"Re your battery capacity, if you can afford it you can fit more effective battery capacity in a limited space by upgrading to LiFePO4 batteries, as they can be discharged more fully. They cost a bomb but should last longer and are significantly lighter. Their lighter weight and reduced hazard risk may also open up possibilities to mount them elsewhere in your rig to increase your overall capacity."

Price is not very different for available AH but the charge you get per watt of solar is greater therefore batteries charge quicker, you can use high draw appliances as they don't drop their voltage much even under high drain and they never drop below 13v in their usable range therefore you get more usable power because low voltage increases power usage for most batteries.

Expected life of about 3 to 4 times more may alter the price also in some peoples eyes.

Beside for a new rig the $2000 saved between a 240v fridge and a 12v fridge will buy lots of batteries.

Regards

Brian

moblet · Senior Member

Poppy sore eye wrote:
Ok guys, I thought it was sorted, does all this extra stuff mean that JC,s simple first solution won't work????

JC's solution won't work only because you can't connect two controllers to one battery. The idea of keeping the two panels independent and joining them at your Anderson plug will work, but a controller needs to be installed between your battery and your Anderson plug(s), and your panels set up to connect to your Anderson(s).

I forgot to check whether my schematic would be lost in translation. An image version is attached and should appear here:

JC would install a second Anderson plug off the controller, whereas I would retain a single plug and use a Y-connector (google "Anderson double adapter" to see what I mean), but it'll work either way.

As JC's experience demonstrated, soldering is more robust than crimping, but for your application crimping will be adequately robust, so it's not something to lose sleep over. You don't have plugs bridging between car and van at high speeds on corrugated roads, you have them disconnected and packed away when travelling and occasionally moved by hand when in use. Your connectors will be exposed to far less stress.

justcruisin01 · Guru

moblet wrote:
Poppy sore eye wrote:
Ok guys, I thought it was sorted, does all this extra stuff mean that JC,s simple first solution won't work????
JC's solution won't work only because you can't connect two controllers to one battery. The idea of keeping the two panels independent and joining them at your Anderson plug will work, but a controller needs to be installed between your battery and your Anderson plug(s), and your panels set up to connect to your Anderson(s).
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
MOBLET; My beleife exactly & this is the way I run mine, with the controler mounted beside the batteries. HOWEVER. A recent topic on this system where I stated that we should use two or more panels, one controller I was cut down by a member here who constantly quotes text book theory's & said that I didnt know what I was talking about because two panels with two controlers was not a problem, Then addmitted that the final charge could be effected by having two controlers, self controdictory. I beg to differ & walked away from the debate as I had better things to do than argue with this person that is like a dog with a bone, never lets go.
I believe that when you connect one panel to a controler it reads the voltage & charges accordingly, When you connect a second panel it will get a false voltage reading & reduce the charge rate because the first controler is already applying volts & amps to the battery. There are times when its hard to point out the differences IF a person does not have an understanding of how the systems work & it all becomes to hard for them.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
QUOTE:
JC would install a second Anderson plug off the controller, whereas I would retain a single plug and use a Y-connector (google "Anderson double adapter" to see what I mean), but it'll work either way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The only difference with this system is you are asking him to spend $30+ on three anderson plugs with a length of cable.
My suggestion was one plug & 150mm of cable; exactly the same result.
JC.

moblet · Senior Member

Sorry JC, wasn't having a shot at you. Poppy had asked directly whether your initial off-the-cuff solution was a goer and no one seemed to be answering.

justcruisin01 wrote:
The only difference with this system is you are asking him to spend $30+ on three anderson plugs with a length of cable.
My suggestion was one plug & 150mm of cable; exactly the same result.

Hard wiring the double adapter at the rig is definitely cheaper if you can do it yourself or aren't being overcharged for labour, but in my case, even if it cost nothing it would make the total system more expensive. At some places I need to use an extension cable to reach the sunshine (a 10m Anderson-Anderson which cost me $50+ off eBay). If I have two panel sets and can put my double adapter wherever I like, then I only need one extension cable. If my double adapter is hard wired at the rig, then I need two extension cables.

beiffe · Guru

I have two panels that I use if i want extra power for heating my HW or in winter if I wish a bit more power ( I have them from previous bus) and I installed a short cable on one panel and I connect the second panel to that one. The second panel is usually only a few meters from the other so just a short lead and I used the cables and joiners that were on the panel as there would be little lost in such a short run and it does not effect the first panel.
We all do thinks different and that is the benefit of the forum and also one of the benefits of joining other travelers at rest stops as you can ask questions and see what they have.
Regards
Brian

03_troopy · Guru

Just a side note on soldering V crimping wires. Soldering is great for being able to reuse the connector, but properly crimped connections, using the correct size cable for the contact, and the proper crimping tool is generally more robust than soldering, especially in hi vibration situations. This is the reason why electrical connections in aircraft are crimped rather than soldered. In any case, both methods are pretty useless if the installer doesn't understand the correct methods in either application. And even worse are those bl**dy scotch locks. They may seem OK at first, but moisture and vibration will soon have you chasing faults when they fail (thanks Avan).

justcruisin01 · Guru

moblet wrote:
Sorry JC, wasn't having a shot at you. Poppy had asked directly whether your initial off-the-cuff solution was a goer and no one seemed to be answering.

justcruisin01 wrote:
The only difference with this system is you are asking him to spend $30+ on three anderson plugs with a length of cable.
My suggestion was one plug & 150mm of cable; exactly the same result.
Hard wiring the double adapter at the rig is definitely cheaper if you can do it yourself or aren't being overcharged for labour, but in my case, even if it cost nothing it would make the total system more expensive. At some places I need to use an extension cable to reach the sunshine (a 10m Anderson-Anderson which cost me $50+ off eBay). If I have two panel sets and can put my double adapter wherever I like, then I only need one extension cable. If my double adapter is hard wired at the rig, then I need two extension cables.

No problem Moblet, I agree with what you are saying & I have my doubble adptor system at the panels. Have ran upto 20mtrs x 6mm cable to get to sunshine without any voltage lose.

Part of the problem on here in general is that quite often a question is asked but very little or no details as to what they actually have as a current/or no setup. So we have to start with a suggestion , then drag the rest of the info out to complete the question & then build on the answers.

After 35yrs in the motor trade servicing & repairing vehicles & machines of all kinds in country location the biggest problem was getting the truth from owners when it came to diagnosing a problem & the reason as to why. So many times it was caused by something the owner had done but they would not addmit to it , I think they thought they were saving money but it was costing them instead. LOL.

I'll go a little of topic here for an eg, got called out to a farmer operating a tractor & slasher, he had driven up a steep incline to the point where he allmost stalled to tractor, rolled it back down to find he had one forward gear & six reverse's. Shut it down & called me out, all round check & all appears fine so fired tractor up & all ok. He had stalled the motor & on the roll back he dropped the clutch so the motor fired up backwards, hence 6 back & 1 forward. LOL.

As the farmer & the boss were good friends I knew the questions awaiting me when I returned to the shop & you got it, boss waiting at the door for an answer. No problem, all good now just turned the seat around so it faced the other way. I better not quote the rest of the conversation. LOLLOLLOL.

Cheers mate;

JC.

justcruisin01 · Guru

03_troopy wrote:
Just a side note on soldering V crimping wires. Soldering is great for being able to reuse the connector, but properly crimped connections, using the correct size cable for the contact, and the proper crimping tool is generally more robust than soldering, especially in hi vibration situations. This is the reason why electrical connections in aircraft are crimped rather than soldered. In any case, both methods are pretty useless if the installer doesn't understand the correct methods in either application. And even worse are those bl**dy scotch locks. They may seem OK at first, but moisture and vibration will soon have you chasing faults when they fail (thanks Avan).

Troopy, I can agree with some of that. Wire's breaking at solder points can be reduced by securing the wiring close to the terminal points to minimise vibration. My old tug has 25yrs of rough work with one main wire problem, the terminal on the alternator whick was crimped over heated & burnt off but i'm not complaining when I think of where it has been & done.

As for aircraft they are not subjected to the same kind of dirt, mud, & corrosive eliments as external wiring of a vehicle. Must say though there are times when this happens & its game over for the unit.

SCOTCH LOCKS; AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. should have never been invented.

moblet · Senior Member

justcruisin01 wrote:
Part of the problem on here in general is that quite often a question is asked but very little or no details as to what they actually have as a current/or no setup. So we have to start with a suggestion , then drag the rest of the info out to complete the question & then build on the answers.

Exactly. Maybe we should start asking for pictures and sketches.

justcruisin01 wrote:
I'll go a little of topic here for an eg, got called out to a farmer operating a tractor & slasher, he had driven up a steep incline to the point where he allmost stalled to tractor, rolled it back down to find he had one forward gear & six reverse's. Shut it down & called me out, all round check & all appears fine so fired tractor up & all ok. He had stalled the motor & on the roll back he dropped the clutch so the motor fired up backwards, hence 6 back & 1 forward. LOL.

Nice one. I suppose he'd have been embarrassed to admit that he always wanted to be an aerobatic pilot and was attempting an aerodynamic stall.

03_troopy · Guru

justcruisin01 wrote:
My old tug has 25yrs of rough work with one main wire problem, the terminal on the alternator whick was crimped over heated & burnt off but i'm not complaining when I think of where it has been & done.
As for aircraft they are not subjected to the same kind of dirt, mud, & corrosive eliments as external wiring of a vehicle. Must say though there are times when this happens & its game over for the unit.
SCOTCH LOCKS; AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. should have never been invented.

Any joints that are subject to adverse conditions such as mud, corrosion etc can be sealed using glue lined (dual wall) heatshrink, or some spray leak sealant even. The overheated connection was most likely due to a loose terminal, or improper crimping (not crimped to the right tension) This would cause overheating with any substantial current draw, causing further contact degradation, increasing contact resistance and further inducing contact heating etc.. etc...

Edit: If you use any of the silicone sealants to seal joints, make sure you use the NEUTRAL CURE type. If the sealant smells in any way like vinegar, don't use it on electrical connections. Acetic acid is commonly used as a curing agent in silicone sealants and this will wreak havoc with your wiring. Even the fumes given off, over weeks after using it, can do a lot of damage in an enclosed situation like junction boxes. (neutral cure RTV737 RTV738 RTV748) (acid cure RTV732 RTV733 RTV734)

-- Edited by 03_troopy on Tuesday 24th of December 2013 08:18:04 AM