Lisence Endorsment Inevitable!!!

Radar · Guru

Lisence Endorsment Inevitable!!!

rockylizard · Guru

herbie wrote:
If this is not a report then please tell my what it is ?? This was a report issued from the general manager from CCA,to Caravaning News.

Gday...

Sorry Herbie ... it is not a report but a press release to a publication to gain recognition of a topic/issue that is of concern to the organisation producing the press release ... in this instance the CCA.

The article in the publication perhaps could be loosely viewed as a report on the press release from CCA.

BTW ... has anyone taken the "test" at the bottom of the article??

Cheers - John

Legendts · Senior Member

Mark wrote:
All for it Herbie,
I know what my rig weighs and how long it is and I believe that it would be quite frightening for somebody with absolutely NO experience in handling this type of outfit........... bring it on!!
There will be those that follow the theory that you only learn by driving......... go practice on an airfield and take a test!!
Good post
Mark

I'm with you Mark, all for it and you only need to watch some of the attempts at backing into a site to confirm the need there too.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

The news article at the link provided earlier (http://caravanningnews.com/ccatest.htm) has a test to click on to complete at the end of the article.

I did this test and at the end you request an email to provide the answers .... If you do the test and request the results you will get the document/s that provide answers and some technical info.

This is the body of the email response I received -

Hi John

Many thanks for your email, and your interest in 'van safety.

The response has been extremely encouraging, but there have been a few nasty replies to the effect that they will "impose a burden on elderly drivers if they have to take a theory and practical test". They would impose much heavier burdens on innocent road-users, if they were to cause a tragic accident...

Endorsed licences for towing heavy 'vans and trailers are not our idea... but we certainly support them, in light of all the accidents - and nasty incidents - on the road that we hear about.

We will be organizing a national Caravan Towing Safety Seminar... mid to late 2014.

Prior to that, there will be a videoed demonstration of "good-and-bad" towing issues, using "moose-avoidance" or "lane-changing" manoeuvres.

Phase 1 - Driver Issues:

Loading: Over-loading; low ball-loading; high ball-loading;

Tyres: Worn; low pressure; high pressure; not aligned correctly; load-rating too high/low; unsuitable treads;

Brakes: Incorrectly adjusted;

Tow Vehicle: Incorrect tyre pressures; incorrect brake adjustment; incorrect loading; poor mechanical condition;

Driver Reactions: Too slow; too gentle; too severe - steering and braking/accelerating;

Proposed Phase 2 - Design Issues:

Masses & Inertias; Suspensions & Roll-Axes; Damping & Roll-stiffness; Braking Systems; Stability-control Systems, Tow-vehicle axle/suspension systems, etc.

Answer Sheet is attached, along with some technical articles.

Any promo you can give to the voluntary, independent, CCA to the forums and RV publications will be greatly appreciated! Kind Regards

Colin

("Mature-Age" Honorary Manager & Automotive Engineer)

Cheers - John

herbie · Guru

Yes took the test, think it is a great initiative.

dorian · Guru

Radar wrote:
I took the test, read the test.
When of late I have purchased a product eg. Tablet computer, a whipper snipper or introduced to a new truck in the fleet I been surplied a some form of instruction but purchase a caravan get how to for the a/c, stove, frig, radio and nothing to you about your responsidilities as a motorist. PS. I am having trouble with the spelling of that word back there.
Now would it be nice and simple to get the caravan sales supply this information to the new owners but no that would make them liable.
Ps. Would someone fix the spelling of licence at the top of page. Please.

-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 02:11:00 AM

-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 02:14:26 AM

"I took the test, read the test." ---The latter goes without saying.

"... or introduced to a new truck ..." --- There is a missing "have been" ...

"I been surplied a some form of" --- Eh?

"get how to for the a/c, stove, frig" --- I don't need a how-to for a frig. That sorta comes naturally.

"... and nothing to you about your responsidilities as a motorist. PS. I am having trouble with the spelling of that word back there." --- So am I.

"Now would it be nice and simple to get the caravan sales supply this information" --- There is a missing "to" ...

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 05:31:39 AM

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 05:52:28 AM

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 05:54:45 AM

dorian · Guru

johnq wrote:
Equally I have yet to see evidence of higher accidents attributable to 'grey' drivers. Maybe the way the media work, the accidents are few relatively speaking but are sensationalised.

I would think that the insurance companies (and their actuaries) would be well placed to understand the age related accident statistics. In fact they would see all the accidents, not just the reportable ones. Just input some numbers into their online premium calculators, particularly those for CTP insurance, and you'll see the difference. You could also apply the same method to contents insurance to assess the relative safety of any neighbourhood.

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 07:31:27 AM

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 08:41:10 AM

Red Dog · Senior Member

Bring it on should of been law years a go

-- Edited by Red Dog on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 08:49:00 AM

johnq · Guru

First, I don't believe that written tests like the one given are worth much. Yes, it could appeal to anyone who likes superficially technical detail, but what does it do to build skills and judgement? Then again, do drivers err through lack of knowledge, or is it often down to motivation? Is the well already there but some would not drink anyway? Take for instance the bloke who always tows at 100kph 'so he doesn't hold up trucks'. He should already know and appreciate what the road regs say about that and why. Licence 'endorsement' wouldn't help.

There is a bifurcation in the road between those who would like cheap, consumer-friendly instruction offered, perhaps at nominal rates and voluntary participation (as is provided by fourby clubs for members), and those who are demanding government regulation. Presumably the latter believe that people must be 'made' to do the right thing. But there are regulations already available and penalties for non-compliance. Is it policing then that is lacking? Should transport inspectors shift some resources from heavy rigs to caravans and trailers? For example, do sufficient full roadworthy checks on trailers so that all would have been checked on (say) a three year cycle? They can do that but they do not. The reason would appear to be that they are already putting their resources where the risks are. If caravan owners want inspectors devoted to checking their 'rigs', would they be prepared to pay higher registration fees for the privilege?

Having just read a RACQ article about the large increases in insurance and registration costs because the government has increased its stamp duty, I am probably in no mood to read requests for licence 'endorsement' and what that might entail. Nor am I disposed to believe that insurance companies would reduce premiums for certified/endorsed/licensed trailer towers. I would be rolling on the floor laughing if anyone were to suggest that any extra taxes collected from caravan and trailer owners might go to more road facilities for such drivers. It will be a tax like any other and put into Consolidated Revenue.

I am all for evidence based laws, but I am not sure there is any proof of the alleged large number of trailer accidents, or even how such data might be collected. Equally I have yet to see evidence of higher accidents attributable to 'grey' drivers. Maybe the way the media work, the accidents are few relatively speaking but are sensationalised. It can be imagined that the reckless would have accidents regardless of the vehicle they are in charge of at the time.

Frankly I sense this is a solution that needs a cause. Or a tax that needs justification. Yes, caravan makers should provide more guidance, and hopefully caravan clubs might encourage completion of training provided by their own members for their new members, as a condition of membership. But inviting bureaucrats from the police, Dept Transport and insurance companies to come up with more regulation is to open Pandora's Box. Be careful what you wish for.

Radar · Guru

Johng good morning

Well said and written, I could not agree more.

Dorian I hope you have a nice day.

brickies · Guru

I don't believe testing of drivers towing caravans will happen but it could be away of getting a lot of Grey Nomads off the road , And some who may think they are experts already

BTSV_Berni · Senior Member

sandsmere wrote:
In the last 2 months there have been 3500 people booked in Adelaide for driving without a seat-belt on , and
1500 booked for using a mobile phone while driving .
As long as there are idiots like that driving , it won't matter how many tests people have to do to drive whatever sort of vehicle ,
The roads are not going to be a safe pace .

That's it and it couldn't be said better.

No matter what kind of licenses you introduce......you don't get rid of idiots on the road.

And I don't see a big problem if someone needs 3 hours to get his rig in the spot on a caravan park as long as he is driving

good on the open roads obeying all road rules. First one is only entertaining for simple minded recless selfish people that prefer to sit in their chairs with a beer in their hands and doing the big hahaha-thing instead of giving some kind of assistence, second one can be deadly. And an additional

license wouldn't change that in any direction !

Regards, Berni

-- Edited by BTSV_Berni on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 04:28:40 PM

-- Edited by BTSV_Berni on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 04:29:25 PM

Radar · Guru

Herbie hi

I am sure you must of been bored when you posted this subject but it has been enlightening.

Nice work.

-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 05:47:48 PM

herbie · Guru

Radar wrote:
Herbie hi
I am sure you must of been bored when you posted this subject but it has been enlightening.
Nice work.

-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 05:47:48 PM

Hi Radar, let us just say,we all may not be as perfect backing into very tight spots as some.

Most times I can back into a site with out a second go, but on the odd occasion yep I hold my hand up to needing a few more attemps to get into that tight site....I have even seen long distance truck drivers having a few goes to back into tight parking spots....But hey it is not the end of the world, the sun still comes up in the morning...And this poor bloke regarding the 3hr saga, may just be a safer driver on the road than Mr perfect who can back in in one go.

-- Edited by herbie on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 06:46:15 PM

herbie · Guru

RE: Licence Endorsment Inevitable!!!

Radar · Guru

licence Endorsement Inevitable!!!

rosco532 · Senior Member

Lisence Endorsment Inevitable!!!

sandsmere · Guru

In the last 2 months there have been 3500 people booked in Adelaide for driving without a seat-belt on , and

1500 booked for using a mobile phone while driving .

As long as there are idiots like that driving , it won't matter how many tests people have to do to drive whatever sort of vehicle ,

The roads are not going to be a safe pace .

herbie · Guru

I agree about who gives a rats a.. if it takes someone 3hrs or 5hrs to maneuver into a site,some of the sites in some of these caravan parks were designed back when Cobb & Co we still running.

Also I have tried to back into a spot with so much over hang from un kept trees/ vegetation that it amost impossible to do this with out doing damage to the van.So yes it can take some extra time to back into sites.

I could never sit and look at some poor bugger trying his best to back into a site, at least ask if he needs some kind of hand.

A lot of sites are not designed to get big rigs into first attempt,but if it is the only park around one has got not much choice to move on.

The chap regarding the 3hr backing into site,may well have also been his first trip away and having people gowking at him would of made him more nervous than he already probably was.

Zoomtopz · Guru

one thing that I ALLWAYS Do , ok , so I may not renew my driver licence every year , BUT ,

when I renew my rego , I pick up a drivers & heavy vehicle handbook . Some may not change year to year .

But if there are any changes , I pick up on them . As stated above . I hold a Road-Train(now MC) lience .

When it became a 'class of licence ' in it's own right . I had an "Unrestricted" NSW Licence . I had Years of

Road-Train experience & could have just got a letter from my boss , took it to RTA , viola , RT licence .

I did it by the book & went & did my RT test , when the teenager gets home I will get hi to put it up for me .

Yes , I got 100% . ok I may have been in my 40's . I did not tow a caravan until a coupe of weeks ago . So , am

I qualified to tow a van Safely ?? I did th RT bit Officially , So , some smart r's McQuarrie St QC , can't say , r u

accredited?

BTSV_Berni · Senior Member

herbie wrote:
I agree about who gives a rats a.. if it takes someone 3hrs or 5hrs to maneuver into a site,some of the sites in some of these caravan parks were designed back when Cobb & Co we still running.
Also I have tried to back into a spot with so much over hang from un kept trees/ vegetation that it amost impossible to do this with out doing damage to the van.So yes it can take some extra time to back into sites.
I could never sit and look at some poor bugger trying his best to back into a site, at least ask if he needs some kind of hand.
A lot of sites are not designed to get big rigs into first attempt,but if it is the only park around one has got not much choice to move on.
The chap regarding the 3hr backing into site,may well have also been his first trip away and having people gowking at him would of made him more nervous than he already probably was.

And ? Would an additional license change that ? smile

It wouldn't. You do the license, and 6 months later you do your first trip......... . Only good for making additional money.

Overtaking where you should better not do it ? Whoever is stupid enough to do it without a trailer will be stupid enough to try it with a trailer in the back.

Changing lanes without looking in the rear view mirror ? Same thing.

Not using indicator lights ? Same story.

Tailgating ? Same story.

Blocking right lane for no good reason ? Same story.

An additional license doesn't change the character.

Regards, Berni

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

I guess I must be out of touch and have unrealistic expectations given some of the comments on this thread hmm

Surely, anyone who has reached our mature age, and has bought a big 4X4 and a big trailer/van to travel this wide, brown, enjoyable land, MUST have gained SOME experience in towing and reversing a trailer/van. confuse

And if someone has not gained sufficient experience in reversing their trailer/van by the time they arrive at a van park they must have realised they NEED some training and/or practice in what really is a basic requirement of towing. Let's be honest here - reversing a 6X4 trailer is much harder than reversing a 20ft van ... it ain't that hard if ya git some good advice and practice.

If one cannot reverse a van, conceding that a 'few' correcting attempts may be needed, they are sorely in need of training and should realise they NEED to find a big car park or such area to lay out some witches hats and PRACTICE.

At least if there is a REQUIREMENT to attend, participate in and successfully complete a training course on towing it MUST make for a better towing driver. confuse

Despite that, I do realise you can lead a driver to a towing course but ya canna make em have a good attitude - but at least they will surely realise they didn't know something that they have now experienced.

Cheers - John

johnq · Guru

dorian wrote:
johnq wrote:
Equally I have yet to see evidence of higher accidents attributable to 'grey' drivers. Maybe the way the media work, the accidents are few relatively speaking but are sensationalised.
I would think that the insurance companies (and their actuaries) would be well placed to understand the age related accident statistics. In fact they would see all the accidents, not just the reportable ones. Just input some numbers into their online premium calculators, particularly those for CTP insurance, and you'll see the difference. You could also apply the same method to contents insurance to assess the relative safety of any neighbourhood.

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 07:31:27 AM

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 3rd of September 2013 08:41:10 AM

Insurance companies are keen to win seniors. Seniors do few kms and have usually learned to assess and react proactively to possible hazards. The quick and other risk-takers are usually long dead. However if all insurance companies could rationalise an increase that could be applied indiscriminately to the seniors age group by all insurers they would do it in a heartbeat and we would have to cop it, because we are a captive audience, so to speak. I say don't give them a leg in.

Frankly, I believe that if the bureaucrats of the various government authorities got together it might only be the outcry about lost sales from caravan manufacturers and distributors that could save caravans, especially longer vans, from being very restricted indeed, motorhomes too.

Apart from that, any real blitz by the Dept of Transport could see many vans off the road. While I am not excusing those who overload their van or tow vehicle to take some examples and they should be informed and encouraged to see the mistakes they are making, it must be apparent that as pesky grey minnows as far as government and the public are concerned, we shouldn't be thrashing around demanding such things as demanding endorsement of licences. Governments love to pass more laws regardless how ineffectual, poorly targeted or redundant the laws are, because it makes politicians look as though they are achieving something.

For comparison, for a time the media loved to sensationalise any accident on the water and yes, as luck had it there were a few well-publicised accidents (the media loves blood). To cut to the chase, it is now common to have water police pulling boats over to inspect. Because the water police can be overzealous and often get it wrong it hasn't helped their credibility or public cooperation either. Once they only intervened where someone was doing something foolish. Now they must get their numbers up.

cultana · Senior Member

This has proved to be an interesting thread.

A few comments:

I did a 4WD course recently.
Nice course covered sand, rock, steep hills, water crossings and snatch strap recovery. What did I actually gain form this. The instructor was good and put a bit of life into what he was teaching.
So what did I get out of this?
First I lost $400 to do it and I got that bit of paper at the end that I needed. Beyond that I did not cover anything new form my perspective.

No I did not attend with the wrong attitude, it was still fun, but a rather expensive bit of fun. I have been driving on and off road for years, starting of with the Army's nasty SWB Land Rovers and their 3/4 LWB ones, not to mention the nice 2 1/2 and 5 ton Inters they had.

Was it useful to the other people attending? Yes.
They did not have the experience and from talking to them that picked up a bit from the course and my little side bits.

Does that bit of paper make me a better 4WD person? NO. It just proves I did a course and passed.

Licence endorsement for towing a van

Will this actually make the person a safe driver? No. It gives them a bit of paper and does not make them do a thing.
At best it will assist some of the state governments push some of the more mature drives off the road. An intent from what I see happening is SA, i.e., push the oldies off the road.
I am on the road a lot and I see P platers flashing past at over 110 km/h, their limit is only 100 km/h. L plater drivers doing over 100 km/h with the whole family on board, though the law says only 1 person in front passenger seat who is a qualified driver, no others.
So much for the endorsement of a drivers licence, just for cars.

Safe driving and backing a van.

Driving safely is one thing. Yes it means correct weight loading in both the tug and the towed unit, correct tyres and pressures, safe speed and correct road etiquette. Also add what else you want to add.

Does not being able to back a van into a site mean you are an unsafe driver? Not from what I see, unless of course that has some ramifications on your highway driving ability. I find that a difficult matter of association.

My wife, now passed on, was a competent safe driver, she had done the same Army driving course as me. In civi life could she back a simple 5x4 trailer, a double horse float, or van attached to the 4x4? Not on the first attempt, (and others). Was it life threatening or critical? Not that I know of. Did it make her a bad/unsafe driver? Not likely.

As for the posted comment:
"I recently watched a chap too and fro for around 3 hours trying to park his caravan on a CP site. I couldn't believe it, listening to his diesel tug for 3 hours without a break."
Nice to see you complain and jest but not think of assisting.
I thought GNs were better than that.

Some people just can't revers a trailer, let alone a van. And it won't make any difference to the amount of practice they do/get.

Safety
Many 4WD forums have what they call 4x4safety section. It covers all things to do with safety.
How come as safety is a significant issue with any form of caravanning there is not a dedicated section for this topic?

John, (rockylizard), posted an interesting response from Colin, CAA. What was in that email represents information that should be out there and available from CAA and accessible via web sites as this.
The suggested Caravan Towing Safety Seminar is all well and good but unless it is easily accessible by those outside the cities it won't help. Not everyone lives in the big city.

Ok end of rant.

I have just got my van back again from repairs. Water damage through the roof seals. Not a happy little person.
Now to double check it, clean and test it, then start putting everything back before I think of hitting the road.

KFT · Guru

This bloke may have been practicing in the park:

"As for the dude that took 3hours to park his van......I have to wonder how much practice he had had...before he headed off...."

very realistic place to practice your reversing into sites

frank

NeilandRaine · Guru

Lots of good comments here. Rocklizard expects that someone who reaches a mature age must have experience. How much experience dose a bloke who drives to work every day in his Toyota corolla for 45 years have,
he retires and goes out and buys a big 4x4 and a big caravan then sets off. Maybe some test of competence would be good.
I have driven trucks off and on for years and as with the caravan, if no one is around I back straight in with out a problem........................ Just let one person be watching

rockylizard · Guru

NeilandRaine wrote:
Lots of good comments here. Rocklizard expects that someone who reaches a mature age must have experience. How much experience dose a bloke who drives to work every day in his Toyota corolla for 45 years have,
he retires and goes out and buys a big 4x4 and a big caravan then sets off. Maybe some test of competence would be good.
I have driven trucks off and on for years and as with the caravan, if no one is around I back straight in with out a problem........................ Just let one person be watching

Gday...

Guess ya didn't read all that post ... I did also say in that post -

"If one cannot reverse a van, conceding that a 'few' correcting attempts may be needed, they are sorely in need of training and should realise they NEED to find a big car park or such area to lay out some witches hats and PRACTICE.

At least if there is a REQUIREMENT to attend, participate in and successfully complete a training course on towing it MUST make for a better towing driver.

Despite that, I do realise you can lead a driver to a towing course but ya canna make em have a good attitude - but at least they will surely realise they didn't know something that they have now experienced."

Cheers - John

herbie · Guru

I also must add a foot note to all this discussion regarding this topic.

I have also seen on many occasions people driving just a vehicle and at other times motor homes and buses requiring a little extra in/out to park correctly in a tight space.

So it just isn't people towing caravans and needing a few manouvers to park.

Santa · Guru

Visit the local boat ramp on a busy Sunday, some of the reverse/launch attempts are worthy of funniest home video's.

I've even seen fights break out as the frustration level rises.

johnq · Guru

Santa wrote:
Visit the local boat ramp on a busy Sunday, some of the reverse/launch attempts are worthy of funniest home video's.
I've even seen fights break out as the frustration level rises.

You are right.

You have also provided another reason why we shouldn't be asking Government to horn in with licence endorsements or any other new conditions for trailers and caravans.

What I am saying is that government collects millions from trailer boaties (for the regulation we had to have) but we still have to put up with the restricted and poorly maintained ramps of years ago and no security in the (limited) parking areas. All Government has done is put the hand out for ever increasing taxes, and the promised return to boaties never eventuates.

Never invite Government to interfere and regulate. It will always end in tears.

-- Edited by johnq on Thursday 5th of September 2013 04:34:04 AM