Thanks for the feedback OT, Troopy and Dorian.

I will get some more detail on the aux battery size, but it is 38 degrees outside at the moment so am staying indoors for awhile.   I think the 12V/240V fridge is an Engel and about 30 or 50 litres.   The microwave is only 240V as far as I am aware.

When we first got this recently, the interior campervan lights would not work on 12V.   However after plugging the charger into 240V, the indicator lights showed the aux battery was flat (after I plugged it into the normal 240V socket in the van) and was charging.   I am pretty sure I only had it on charge for probably 5-6 hours and the green light showed it was then fully charged.

Disconneted the outside 240V supply and all the interior lights now working on 12V, so assume the aux charged up ok. 

As it would be highly unlikely we would use the two inverter items and possible danger etc, we may remove them altogether, also make for less weight.    Can this be done by an auto electrician or does it need to be done by a normal electrician?

Thanks

Vic

Thanks for that Peter, will ask SWMBO if she wants me to remove them.

We like to keep things simple so would only use the microwave or other 240V appliances etc if on 240V at a caravan park.

Can cook on gas at non powered areas etc and have nothing we would miss (TV/AC etc) if not on power.

Without going to check, this is the deep cycle Century Battery it has as the auxillary at the moment, model number 23383, I can see in the fine print it says suitable for 4WD's or RV's.  

 

 

-- Edited by Vic on Wednesday 28th of December 2011 07:19:52 PM

Info on Get Power DC/AC converter "Rong Feng" E08 VDE Euopean plug, (red positive lead also has inline fuse at auxillary battery connection.)

See these links for plug details;

http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture9/rongfeng/showroom1.html

http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture9/rongfeng/e08.html

 

Hi Vic

The Battery is what is generally called a hybrid ,deep cycle & starter battery 

Not Perfect for either but normally give good service

Orignal, as new capacity, 115amphrs

That size @ full capacity & no other energy source would run the Engel for a max of 24hrs & have a reasonable life

But you do have other 12v power requirements so I doubt you would get even 24hrs

 It would need to be fully recharged before futher use

Any compressor  fridge requires substantial battery  capacity or alternative sources of energy [solar ,generator]  when away from mains power.

That little charger would be hard pushed to recharge in much less than 36hrs just what the fridge has used

Good to see that All the pos lines have been fused @ the battery

Peter

I couldn't find anything on the fridge, either, but ISTM that your internal capacity is 64 litres. Whether this is how fridges are rated, I can't say.

40cm x 40cm x 40cm = 64 litres

Just FYI, here is Google's calculator:
http://www.google.com/search?q=40cm+x+40cm+x+40cm+in+litres

FWIW, this is Engels "Past Products" list:
http://www.engelaustralia.com.au/cgi-bin/products.cgi?category=Past%20Products

Here are their contact details:
http://www.engelaustralia.com.au/cgi-bin/contact_us.cgi

Here is the manufacturer's web site:
http://www.sawafuji.co.jp/english/seihin/engel1.html

FWIW, here is a parts list for the SRT- 5108E and others:
http://www.engel-europe.nl/pdf-bestanden/SR90E.pdf

Thanks for the feedback Dorian, you may well be right with the size, on my other van it is a Waeco 80 litre and there is not a huge difference between them.

For information, I have now removed both inverters, dam hot out there so have not "tested" the remaining electrics yet, I have decided to keep the 240V battery charger on the bench top.   The inside lights are working ok on 12 volts but I want to check the van is starting ok, the fridge works and the battery charger, tomorrows job.

I removed the main leads of both batteries from the Neg and Pos terminals and my only concern now is if there may have been any "bridging" leads on the battery connected with them I am not aware of.   Inspection of what's left appears that all that is needed is wired ok and hopefully will work when I test it.

For info,  once I removed the large inverter I could see more information on a sticker inside the fan grill at the rear, the is in addition to the Power Inverter A1700W 12V and model 021440 E13 I could see on the outside case.

The make is a Hong Sheng, made in Taiwan, Model A6025S12S DC 12V 0.25 Amp (I don't know why the inside model number is different from the outside casing, perhaps they (the outer and inner) both have different model numbers).   There is a date stamped on the sticker which is a day and month in 2008 so seems to be not very old.  FYI,

Thanks

Vic   

dorian wrote:

---

!}another thread you claimed that isolated 240V/110V transformers were unsafe,

[2]while in this thread you are saying that non-isolated 12VDC-240VAC inverters are deathtraps. ISTM that your statements are inconsistent.

[2]Furthermore, my understanding is that inverters are inherently isolated (because they use a transformer to step up the voltage). So my question is, what makes a non-isolated inverter non-isolated?

[3]The other claim that I'm finding hard to accept is your concern regarding the potential differences between the AC outputs of two different inverters. AFAICS, a 480VAC potential difference is only a hazard if the user sticks his fingers in both GPOs, in which case the whole thing must be seen as a furphy. Or is there some other, less improbable scenario that you can see?

[4]In any case, there is no way to wire two inverters so as to avoid the above scenario. This is because each inverter has its own 50Hz clock, and these two clocks are not synchronised to each other. This means that the phase difference will vary each time you turn them on. It could be 0 or 180 degrees, or anywhere in between. Furthermore, the phase will drift over time, so the potential difference will vary from 0 to 480VAC while the units are running.

---

 

Hi Dorian

The statements are not inconsistant if one fully understands the various risk factors in the motor home /van /camper situation

[1] Not only is the use of step down transformers considered potentialyunsafe in THAT situation ,THEY are not permitted under the standard

[2]portable Non isolated inverters are death traps, many serious accidents & some deaths have occurred with their use

They are totally banned from use in the building & constuction industries for that reason

[3] Interesting that you do not know the difference between non isolated & compliant isolated.

Perhaps if you do a little research, you will understand there are distinct differences ,but I will give you a littleclue , 240vside is linked back to the dc neg internally & remembereven 40milliamps can kill

FULLY compliant isolatedinverters have to meet the requirements of double insulation between the DCside & the 240v side

 Non isolated inverters were widely sold up to a few years ago& i would expect are still available via Ebay

[3] like all electrical accidents there is always a probability factor

Two seperate sources  can always havethe possabilty of cumulative voltages if they have a common connection [as with non isolated inverters]

  If we look at the two in question, considerthesituation where the devise connected to the one with a 2pin plug develops line to frame fault& the user contacts that & the main frame connected to battery neg

I leave you to work that out

 

[4] Totally agree,the use of multiple inverters,non isolated high risk. fully isolated some low risk

Best to not use  multiple portable inverters

IT may require more than one fault but that fault could be there,unknown ,for a long time , the 2nd fault could be the nasty one

Therisk is like playing russian roulette

Peter

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 29th of December 2011 11:46:25 PM

My copy of the SAA Wiring Rules dates back to 1991, so I don't know whether it's even worth looking at. I accept that the majority of the rules are safety related, and many issues are the result of quirky accidents whose causes often only come to light after a post mortem. That's why I'm having difficulty understanding the reason behind some of them. Is there anything in the latest SAA Wiring Rules specifically in regard to inverters (other than grid connected types)?

I do understand the concepts of isolation and non-isolation. Some TV repair shops, for example, isolate their workbenches to minimise the risks when working on a live chassis. Even in such cases I can see potential dangers. For example, when one connects an earthed scope lead to an isolated circuit, this results in the whole circuit becoming live once again. In the case of inverters, one could strap the AC earth pin to DC negative, or AC neutral to DC negative, or both neutral and earth to negative. I confess that I don't understand why the designer would want to do that. As for research, I have actually repaired two inverters in my career, one being an older version with a 50Hz iron cored transformer, the other being a relatively modern type with a high frequency ferrite transformer. I don't remember if either was non-isolated.

In fact here is a discussion on the subject:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1543560

And here is a manufacturer's FAQ that actually discusses bonding the neutral conductor to earth:
http://www.enerdrive.com.au/faqs/common-installation-problems

Some people are suggesting that the "square within a square" symbol for Class II appliances doesn't apply to inverters because they are not connected to the mains supply.

I've just answered my own question regarding safety standards:
AS/NZS 4763(Int):2006 Safety of Portable Inverters
AS/NZS 5603:2009 Stand-alone inverters Performance requirements

Unfortunately the above documents are not available for free download. Apparently the relevant standards bodies think that safety information should come at a price.

I also found this thread where you (oldtrack123) appear to have been involved:
http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/81560/WARNING_dangerous_inverters.aspx?ky=&p=%2fForum%2fDefault.aspx%3fpn%3d4


-- Edited by dorian on Friday 30th of December 2011 07:47:39 AM

dorian wrote:

---

My copy of the SAA Wiring Rules dates back to 1991, so I don't know whether it's even worth looking at. I accept that the majority of the rules are safety related, and many issues are the result of quirky accidents whose causes often only come to light after a post mortem. That's why I'm having difficulty understanding the reason behind some of them. Is there anything in the latest SAA Wiring Rules specifically in regard to inverters (other than grid connected types)?

I do understand the concepts of isolation and non-isolation. Some TV repair shops, for example, isolate their workbenches to minimise the risks when working on a live chassis. Even in such cases I can see potential dangers. For example, when one connects an earthed scope lead to an isolated circuit, this results in the whole circuit becoming live once again. In the case of inverters, one could strap the AC earth pin to DC negative, or AC neutral to DC negative, or both neutral and earth to negative. I confess that I don't understand why the designer would want to do that. As for research, I have actually repaired two inverters in my career, one being an older version with a 50Hz iron cored transformer, the other being a relatively modern type with a high frequency ferrite transformer. I don't remember if either was non-isolated.

In fact here is a discussion on the subject:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1543560

And here is a manufacturer's FAQ that actually discusses bonding the neutral conductor to earth:
http://www.enerdrive.com.au/faqs/common-installation-problems

Some people are suggesting that the "square within a square" symbol for Class II appliances doesn't apply to inverters because they are not connected to the mains supply.

I've just answered my own question regarding safety standards:
AS/NZS 4763(Int):2006 Safety of Portable Inverters
AS/NZS 5603:2009 Stand-alone inverters Performance requirements

Unfortunately the above documents are not available for free download. Apparently the relevant standards bodies think that safety information should come at a price.

I also found this thread where you (oldtrack123) appear to have been involved:
http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/81560/WARNING_dangerous_inverters.aspx?ky=&p=%2fForum%2fDefault.aspx%3fpn%3d4


-- Edited by dorian on Friday 30th of December 2011 07:47:39 AM

---

 

Hi Dorian

Gee you are putting this old brain to the test [smiling]

There are substantial changes to AS3000 2007 compared to1991,particularly in regard to safety & earthing

Quirky ?? Are not ALL electrical incidents a result of quirky situations arising except for deliberate actions knowing the risk?

Yes, th,e Standards do respond to past & forseeable problems

The 2007 version does have a small section related to isolated supplies

It is this section that seems to have been misinterpreted by many ,as you may see from my post on240v /110v transformers.

That has resulted in serious concerns by a member of the standards committee

However AS 3000 must be read in conjunction with AS/NZS 3001 :2008 where transportable structures are involved[virtualy any vehicle with sleeping accomadation [but includes tents  vans motor homes etc'

This why the general safety recommendation is to have only ONE Class 1 device connected @ any time

I have investigated incidents [one very serious] where shocks were recieved using the old safety packs [isolation transformer].All involved the use of multiple class1 tools with multiple adapters off a single safety pack

Non isolated inverters are the result of many  having a direct path between the Ac & DC side usually via the "Auto turn on" facility &/ or current & voltage sensing for output regulation

Others have leakage via capacitors

An ohmic test will not usually reveal these but a very low wattage  240v[5<10W ]test lamp MAY

The connection to mains or not, is errelavant  as far as safety is concerned

At present, many inverters are fully isolated but may not have the double square symbol

That as you say is just some's opinion

Simply do not buy one unless it is clearly stated to be fully isolated

Those selling them will I am sure emphasis that point.

 The  Standards cover all power over 40v AC no matter what the source

Yes the problem with the standards is you need to be in business [to claim them as a tax deduction] or be quite rich to purchase ALL the cross referenced standards  & have All the detailed requirements

 In most cases it is simply accepted the makers claims that the product does comply with the relevant standards

However in the case of the transformer maker ,in that other tread, the claim was, in part , not correct. While they complied with the requirements for full isolation ,the other claims were incorrect

You will find many forums with posts by me on so called SAFE isolated sources

You may also find some , with my comments,where incidents have occured with isolated sources in motor homes & vans

 

No one should underestimate the risk when using any AC above 40v ,no matter what the source

I have also had to investigate where a worker was seriously injured  while using a 32v ac hand lamp of an  isolated transformer , supplying other lighting. 

Thes incidents are not fantasy ,they have all happened

There are also many incidents reported from time to time in ESO reports ETC

 

Iit is now mandatory that ALL portable inverters & generators use in industry [building ,constuction ,mining etc] have Permanently fitted& wired fully operational RCDs

In other word , they are no longer fully isolated ,deliberately,  as such was not fail proof ,with no visual means of knowing,  deaths & accidents occurred 

 A new device, which I expect will gain a significant place in this area is a

"Universal RCD'" which does not require a earthed neutral for operation

Try googling that for more info,

It offers a 2stage protection, full isolation to start but if an earthed neutral situation develops anywhere in the system, it senses that & assumes a conventional RCD operation ' on the next ACTIVE to earth fault, it will trip, quicker than a conventional RCD.

Peter

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 30th of December 2011 01:30:44 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:20:12 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:48:37 PM

dorian wrote:

---

Peter, your latest post has several major cut-and-paste errors.

---

 

Hi Dorian

I tried 3times to copy & paste those disjointed  now deleted sections  as one section

& they did not paste [well not that I could see]So I gave up a wrote a precis of that section

They are in a Jaycar data sheet, but similar info is available else where 

Peter

I am no computer guru, just self taught.

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:38:31 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:50:52 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:54:28 PM